Let me simplify it... stars fall from heaven, or the heaven rolls up like a scroll is that the end of time?
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The Great Tribulation
- Thread starter Edward
- Start date
Highway54
Member
Hi ed, I think you might be confusing the great tribulation as being part of the wrath of God sir, it is not. God's wrath comes with the battle of Armageddon which actually ends the tribulation. The tribulation is a result of the deterioration of this world under satan, the god of this world. The world scene is deteriorating rapidly now, and the great tribulation is very near to starting. It is going to be excruciating for all of us, but Christians do not have to worry, as we know what comes after, God's Kingdom comes, what we all have prayed for.
Hi Highway54
I just pray that it doesn't get as bad for christians, as it once was for Jews in Europe before and during WWII. But Jesus did warn us that it's going to be bad. Worse than has ever been before or ever will be. So expect it to get pretty rough as we move inexorably to the day of our loving Father's judgment.
God bless,
Ted
Shilohsfoal
Member
Jesus was litteraly quoting Daniel when he was speaking of the great tribulation.You can see it in this next verse but I want you to pay close attention to the rest of the verse as well.
Dan 12:1
And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.
Edward
2024 Supporter
How is the great tribulation Not part of the wrath of God?! Does He use His wrath in a different war or something? He has seven bowlfuls of wrath to pour out and it all happens within a 3.5 year period. It doesn't seem confusing to me.
Now when you start trying separate the great tribulation from the wrath of God, you begin to make it confusing!
and that is what I am talking about and what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 24:29-31.
Shilohsfoal
Member
Thousands of years ago man looked up into the sky and saw what he thought was a star falling to the earth.He called it a falling star.
But it wasn't really a star was it?
According to Daniel ,At the time of the end the king of the north will go forth to destroy and innihilates many.
Daniel 11:44
But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many.
According to Daniel ,who Jesus quoted when talking about the great tribulation,it takes place when this king of the north innihilates many.You don't read of any falling stars of the heavens departing like a scroll being rolled together.All you read about is this one king going forth to destroy.
Now I want you to consider just what this king has in his arsenal .
Does he have objects that can appear as falling stars-Yes he does.
Does he have objects that can cause the earth to quake and the heavens depart from the earth as a scroll being rolled together?Yes he does.
It's called the abomination of desolation and it is what Jesus said causes great tribulation.
I was taught this idea first, that all manner of calamity takes place.
Then someone challenged me on something.
I have no clue what you are talking about, what calamity?
Who challenged you on something?
In the OT...the same language was used, not for the end of the world, but rather a change of government or administration.
again Isa.13 babylon
6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Isa.34: Edom is being destroyed
2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.
JOEL2: Jerusalem
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Egypt;Ezk32:
7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord God.
This happens every time a major judgment changes these cities and nations.
These are direct quotes from scripture.
Shilohsfoal
Member
And all that starts when the king of the south attacks the king of the north.
Oops ,wrong move.
Mark 13:8
Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.
Oops ,wrong move.
Mark 13:8
Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.
Shilohsfoal
Member
This is the cause of great tribulation and it isn't God.
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand).16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Highway54
Member
Hi Ted, I hate to be the bearer of bad news sir, but I think you know it already, nothing that has ever occurred in history will compare. Jesus stated quite frankly that it will be the greatest tribulation of all times, he said in truth that unless the days of it were not cut short no flesh would be saved, yes sir, God is going to allow mankind to go to the point of extinction. But the good news is, that because of Christians, He will send His forces to remove those wicked that are left and establish His Kingdom which we have all prayed for. Mat 24:22; 6:10.
None of us want to go through that, but Christians will be preserved. God's people had to go through it before,, the time period between leaving Egypt and entering into the promised land. God's people now are nearing entering that new promised land, many will not make it, but those who truly are serving God will. That is His promise sir. Rev 7:9,14.
Highway54
Member
Hi Ed, it has to do with the sin of Adam sir. What really happened when Adam sinned? They lost their relationship with God. They lost life as well. Since they had no children, their offspring born after that were imperfect as well, thus inheriting death as well.
The truth was told to Eve, although most don't realize what was actually said, satan said that Eve would become like God knowing good and bad. In itself we had that created into us, God's law was in our creation, so we already knew good and bad, Eve even told satan God' command about the tree. What was meant is, you can be your own god, choosing for yourself what is good for you. Do you agree?
So now put yourself in God's shoes, He had choices to make. I personally think He chose the wisest course that only made sense Ed. He let them see for themselves what it would be like with them being their own god.
Lets use an understandable comparison. Picture yourself as a teacher, and like in every class you have a rebel that thinks you are wrong, so you put a problem on the chalkboard and proceed to show the answer, but a student challenges you, stating he knew a better way, some giggle thinking the same, so you have authority, you have power, instinctively you want to remove the rebel, but what will result? Others are looking on, who might sincerely think he was right, so you let him prove his case. Can you see the comparison? When Adam, Eve, and satan rebelled, He chose the wisest course, let them prove it. The great tribulation is not the wrath or vengeance from God, it is the finalization of man and satan's allowance to show God is not needed. It took a while, and a little more time is needed to show that man under satan is going to bring the earth to it's extinction if God does not step in sir. That is His day of wrath, when He does send His forces because of His chosen ones who remain Mat 24:22.
That is what is referred to as His day of Wrath, when He takes action against those rebels who failed in usurping His Sovereignty.
You know even now many think man is going to be able to solve their problems, fulfilling
2pe 3:3 knowing this first, that in the last days mockers shall come with mockery, walking after their own lusts, 2pe 3:4 and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for, from the day that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
That is why God has to allow it to go to the point of extinction Ed.
Isaiah 13, 34; Joel 2, Ezekiel 32 are OT prophecies against Babylon as we also read in Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 17, 18 and 19 about mystery Babylon and of her destruction in the end of days when Christ returns when that prophecy will be fulfilled.
Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
The Lord's day being the day of the Lord is a day of Gods great wrath being poured out into the world that will have a great impact on those who refuse to repent and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. It is always pointed out as the day at hand meaning in Gods timing in Rev 1:10. The phrase "the day of the Lord" is used nineteen times in the Old Testament (Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3; Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31; 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 15; Zephaniah 1:7,14; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi. 4:5) and five times in the New Testament (Acts 2:20; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:2; 2 Peter 3:10; Rev 1:10). It is also alluded to in other passages like Revelation 6:17; 16:14.
Those prophecies were fulfilled already, in history.Edon destroyed, Babylon destroyed, Egypt destroyed, then Jerusalem destroyed...it happened already.
Edward
2024 Supporter
Even if I can agree with a large portion of what you wrote, how does what you said show that the wrath of God is not the great tribulation?
Have you ever heard about history repeating itself!!! these nations you posted still exist today within the seven remaining nations. Iraq, Iran, Greece, Turkey, Syria and Egypt, Rome.
During its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times.
Seven remaining nations that still exist today:
Babylonian Empire:
(Iraq) The lion represents the winged lions that guarded the royal places of Babylon. This Empire ran from 2000BC - 1759BC
Medo – Persian Empire:
(Iran) The ribs of the bear are part of the consuming greed that devours the first empire.
Grecian Empire:
(Greece, Turkey, Syria, Egypt) Four wings of the leopard described the swiftness of this empire that ran from 334-331BC. It wrestled world dominion from Medo-Persia. After the death of Alexander the Great the kingdom was divided into four minor kingdoms that continued as prominent factors in world politics until the Roman Empire gathered it back as one kingdom.
Roman Empire: (little horn, Daniel 8:9-14, 23-27)
Iron represents the stronghold this nation had. Daniel chapter 2 mentions the iron element of this empire that it to will be divided and broken as God will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed.
Highway54
Member
Doesn't matter Ed, it either is or isn't. I explained it as best I could, It is rather clear that God is involved when He sends His forces, and those forces actually end the tribulation as you seen from Scripture. I believe His wrath begins with the sending of those forces sir. Bob I may, or may not be correct, that is just my understanding based on the passages I posted.
Shilohsfoal
Member
Mathew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Many people dont understand what tribulation Christ is speaking of in this verse.
He is speaking of the tribulation suffered by the saints .It's their persecution for following Christ and testifying of him.
Luke 21:12
But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name.
The great tribulation takes place after this persecution.The saints that have survived through the persecution are delivered at the time of the great tribulation when the stars fall from the sky.The dead in Christ are raised at that time . Those who have not repented of their sins and took part in the persecution of the saints are punished at this time.This is the time of God's wrath.