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The Great Tribulation

I didn't ask what happens during the great tribulation. I asked what is it's purpose? WHy is God allowing it?
Hi Edward

I'm sorry. This is the question that you asked of me:
Brother, can you tell me what the tribulation is all about?
Please forgive me if I misunderstood exactly what it was that you were asking about the tribulation. The tribulation is just the natural working out of man's wicked and evil heart upon the earth. God's word tells us, most clearly in the letter to the Romans all of the wickedness that is going to come upon men because they have refused the mercy and grace of God, their Creator. God is allowing it because we are living in the days of God's patience, as Peter writes to us.

God spent some 1500 years cobbling together His Scriptures among His people, Israel. Then He sent His Son as our sacrifice for sin. Now, that part of God's work in providing our salvation is finished. That's exactly what Jesus said as he drew his last breath here on the earth with us. "It is finished!" He proclaimed. What was finished? The 'mechanics' if you will, of God's great plan of salvation. The truth had been written that tells us all about the things the Jesus was going to be doing so that we would know him when he came...but we didn't. But God sent Jesus, in the due course of time. He died. Now, we live in the days of God's patience when the gospel will be preached to all mankind and some will come to the knowledge of His salvation.

But the natural working out of mankind that is living like this...

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

I would ask that you read that carefully and sit back and ruminate on how bad people are going to be treating one another if they are living with a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. An entire globe of billions upon billions of people, and they are all filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil;

Then you throw Jesus' words in there, that he has warned us that a time is coming that will be worse than things have ever been before upon the earth. There is going to be a great tribulation that is going to be a time of great persecution upon the believers and those faithful to God. That time of great tribulation will come because the earth will be filled with people living as my last paragraph describes and they are going to be going after and attacking the people of God.
But then God has promised that He is going to cut short those days. He's going to do that by sending Jesus, as explained in the Revelation chapter 14:14+. God is going to cut short the days of great tribulation and usher in his judgment and wrath upon the vile and wicked unbelieving. Those will then become the days of God's wrath. And what will be happening is explained to us in the Revelation of Jesus as the bowl judgments.

But the reason there is a Great Tribulation is just because the entire globe will be filled with wicked, evil people who don't love anyone but themselves, who slander anyone they desire, to hate and murder and envy and strife and deceit and malice. Those people will get tired of hearing us calling them to repent and be saved. They are going to be people who believe that the earth was created through some natural processes as our current popular science teaches. They're not going to believe that there is a God or that He had anything to do with why we are here and that the only reason each one of us even breathes is God. So, they are going to come after the people of God. They're going to hate us even more than they hate their other equally wicked friends, neighbors and just other living people.

Sorry if I misunderstood 'what' exactly you were asking, but now that you've clarified it...this is it. The Great Tribulation comes upon the earth because the wickedness of man will reach an apex. The Antichrist will be revealed, and as we've been warned about him, he's going to put himself in the place of God for all of those wicked, evil people that don't know God. That's all going to boil over into a tempest of hate and anger and persecution that Jesus tells us will be worse that it has ever been or ever will be again. But, because God has determined to cut short those days, He is going to send His Son to collect those who are his, which the angel speaking to John tells him are those who came out of the Great Tribulation, and the God's wrath, as accounted for in the last chapters of the Revelation of Jesus.

The believers will have been taken out of the Great Tribulation:


Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Did you get that? This creature is telling John that the group of people who sees in his vision are 'those who have come out of...what?...THE GREAT TRIBULATION. The exact same words to describe the exact same time that Jesus spoke of as the days of Great Tribulation. That is not the same as the days in which God's wrath will be loosed upon mankind...after the believers have been harvested out of the earth.

God bless,
Ted
 
Well I just go by what the Bible says.
If you want to focus on a different piece of a very big puzzle then go ahead.
Remember that this is a very large topic... and you remember the story of the three blind men and the elephant.

Put forward your ideas instead of trying to prove cleverness by entrapment.
Put your ideas into the light and let us see if light confirms or destroys your ideas.

Ok, fair enough. The Great Tribulations purpose is to bring Israel to a saving knowledge of our Messiah, Jesus the Christ. Those stubborn Jews do not fully accept Him as a nation until their bcks are against the wall.


Let's go back to Matthew 24.
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.../NKJV

The Nazi holocaust was said to have killed 1 out of every 3 Jews. The Great tribulation will take 2 out of every 3 Jews. This will be a terrible time for Israel.

It says let those in Judea flee to the mountains. Not those in the US. Not those in Canada. Those in Judea. The distinction of Israel at this time should not go unnoticed. The great tribulations effects will be so bad that it affects the entire globe. But it is about bringing Israel back unto Him.
 
Ok, fair enough. The Great Tribulations purpose is to bring Israel to a saving knowledge of our Messiah, Jesus the Christ. Those stubborn Jews do not fully accept Him as a nation until their bcks are against the wall.


Let's go back to Matthew 24.
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.../NKJV

The Nazi holocaust was said to have killed 1 out of every 3 Jews. The Great tribulation will take 2 out of every 3 Jews. This will be a terrible time for Israel.

It says let those in Judea flee to the mountains. Not those in the US. Not those in Canada. Those in Judea. The distinction of Israel at this time should not go unnoticed. The great tribulations effects will be so bad that it affects the entire globe. But it is about bringing Israel back unto Him.
So why was Revelation written to the Churches?
Why are you dividing the Body of Christ?
I don't disagree with your narrow focus... but take a wider view... or don't.
But the end is so very much bigger that that.
 
So why was Revelation written to the Churches?
Why are you dividing the Body of Christ?
I don't disagree with your narrow focus... but take a wider view... or don't.
But the end is so very much bigger that that.

I'm not dividing anyone. The fullness of the Gentiles comes in around that time too. It's been the times of the Gentiles for quite awhile now. It will come full and Israel will come full. and be gathered unto Him.
 
I'm not dividing anyone. The fullness of the Gentiles comes in around that time too. It's been the times of the Gentiles for quite awhile now. It will come full and Israel will come full. and be gathered unto Him.
Come in to the family of Israel. We are the adopted Jews. So if you are saying something is for the people of Israel... you are speaking to the Gentile believers in the Jewish Messiah as well.
 
If we want to know what to expect from the Lord to help us during this time all we have to do is to read the bible. Food multiplication, translation for travel, 1000 dies to my side and 5000 one the other side but it wont touch me, Angelic Jailbreaks and so forth. God can make you invisible to the enemy who is searching for you, this is called hiding in the shadow of the Lord under the feathers of His wings.

There was famines in the land. You might lose some weight but the Lord wont let you starve to death. (get used to Fasting, now).

Remember the Lord's Prayer! ...Deliver us from evil. Now then, who wants to outside and face the giant?
I don't want to. If I did, I think I would want a lever action rifle. Either a 44 Mag or a 45/70.

5 rounds is enough when God walks out there with you. You might only use one!
(Isn't our God such a good God!!!)

God is good!


Here is one operation of spiritual warfare during this time that could prove to be more powerful that the 45-70.

And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. Revelation 11:3-5



JLB
 
Did you get that? This creature is telling John that the group of people who sees in his vision are 'those who have come out of...what?...THE GREAT TRIBULATION. The exact same words to describe the exact same time that Jesus spoke of as the days of Great Tribulation. That is not the same as the days in which God's wrath will be loosed upon mankind...after the believers have been harvested out of the earth.

We disagree on that.
 
We disagree on that.
Hi Edward ell
Well, explain what in that passage you disagree with. That John actually saw a group of people standing in heaven that an angel spoke to him about? Asking John where they had come from? Or is it, that the angel didn't really say to John that these people came out of the great tribulation? That the angel used the exact same turn of phrase that Jesus used?

You apparently disagree with my understanding of these few words and what they were talking about. Would you be willing to express 'what' you believe these particular and specific words that are recorded in the Revelation of Jesus is telling us, according to your understanding.

Who are the people that John is referencing here? What is it that the angel meant when he said to John, "These are those who came out of the great tribulation? Is there going to be more than one 'great tribulation'? What is the great tribulation that is mentioned in this passage, as opposed to the great tribulation that Jesus spoke to us about?

Like I say, I'm willing to listen and entertain anyone's ideas about the things of God, but I do have a thinking mind and, I believe, a Spirit for leading me into all truth that Jesus tells us those who are born again will have. I don't say that to brag, but just acknowledging that what the majority of the new covenant writers wrote about. That there will be imposters and wolves in sheep's clothing among the fellowship. That there are those who have no understanding, just as Peter wrote about those who didn't understand a lot of what Paul had written. And Peter was talking about the people among the fellowship here. Not just lost people traveling the earth with us.

At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,...

Here we are warned of false prophets who will appear and deceive many people. Now, I'm not making any claim that you are a false prophet, but that you have listened somewhere to a teaching that has taught you things that aren't true about God's word.

Friend, the Scriptures are pretty clear that we will go into the Great Tribulation. That there is coming a time during the Great Tribulation that God is going to cut short those days. That at that time, God will cut short those days by sending Jesus to collect those that are his and then pouring out His wrath on all that remain. That honestly seems to be a pretty clear teaching to me from the Scriptures.

So, we shall continue to agree to disagree about there being a difference between 'what' the Scriptures are referring to as the 'days of Great Tribulation' and what the Scriptures are referring to when they speak also of the 'days of God's wrath'.


God bless,
Ted
 
Time of great testing or temptation of the Bride.

Rev 3:10
Because you have kept the word of my patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation, which shall come on all the world, to try them that dwell on the earth.
dwd001:
That promise is already active and working to those in Christ on this day 02/17/2023.
I am in possession of that promise right now and so are you if you are in Christ.
No need waiting for the tribulation for that promise to be fulfilled .
We have it already, as have those in Christ for the last 2000 years at least.

1Co 10:13
"..... God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."


Now here is where we can learn something.
Why is this promise being repeated , IN FUTURE TENSE, if we are already possessors of this promise?

Rev 3:10
... I also will keep you from the hour of temptation,


This much I do know ,
God is not repeating Himself here to the same group of people He already made this promise to 2000 years ago, because that promise slipped His mind and He forgot to fulfil it , and He really does not have the time right now to fulfil it, but has changed His mind and decided to just wait until the Tribulation comes to keep His promise of long ago .
So why is the promise being given again, but only to be fulfilled in a future time ?
What's going on here ?
 
dwd001:
That promise is already active and working to those in Christ on this day 02/17/2023.
I am in possession of that promise right now and so are you if you are in Christ.
No need waiting for the tribulation for that promise to be fulfilled .
We have it already, as have those in Christ for the last 2000 years at least.

1Co 10:13
"..... God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."


Now here is where we can learn something.
Why is this promise being repeated , IN FUTURE TENSE, if we are already possessors of this promise?

Rev 3:10
... I also will keep you from the hour of temptation,


This much I do know ,
God is not repeating Himself here to the same group of people He already made this promise to 2000 years ago, because that promise slipped His mind and He forgot to fulfil it , and He really does not have the time right now to fulfil it, but has changed His mind and decided to just wait until the Tribulation comes to keep His promise of long ago .
So why is the promise being given again, but only to be fulfilled in a future time ?
What's going on here ?
I am not referring to the promise.
The reference is to the "hour of temptation".
And the Revelation passage is for one specific group of people... not the entire Body of Christ.
So if it applies to you... good. But it does not apply to all.
I am referring to the Revelation passage only.
 
I am not referring to the promise.
The reference is to the "hour of temptation".
And the Revelation passage is for one specific group of people... not the entire Body of Christ.
So if it applies to you... good. But it does not apply to all.
I am referring to the Revelation passage only.
The Revelation passage you quote is a "promise" in every sense of the word.
The " I will keep you,,," portion of it a clear indicator this is something God "will do" in the future.
Rev 3:10
... I also will keep you from the hour of temptation,

So yes, God is not speaking to people are in Christ Jesus either now in 2023 or at that future time.
If they were we know that God would need to reinforce what He has already promised to everyone who has trusted Christ:
1Co 10:13
"..... God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

God does not half-step in His promises.
If He promised it , it is a done deal.
No need for God to replow old ground.
So who do you think these people are who are not yet a part of the Body of Christ at this future time, who God is offering a special protection to ?
 
The Revelation passage you quote is a "promise" in every sense of the word.
The " I will keep you,,," portion of it a clear indicator this is something God "will do" in the future.
Rev 3:10
... I also will keep you from the hour of temptation,

So yes, God is not speaking to people are in Christ Jesus either now in 2023 or at that future time.
If they were we know that God would need to reinforce what He has already promised to everyone who has trusted Christ:
1Co 10:13
"..... God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

God does not half-step in His promises.
If He promised it , it is a done deal.
No need for God to replow old ground.
So who do you think these people are who are not yet a part of the Body of Christ at this future time, who God is offering a special protection to ?
I agree... but I did not quote the promise.
The discussion is not about the promise.
The only words of consequence to this discussion are "hour of temptation".
I have explained this before so please keep up.

I believe that Gods promise in these verses are to the Philadelphian Church as He says.
Jesus Himself says that these promises are only for the Philadelphia Church.
Or there would not be seven separate little notes, but one with generalised admonishments and promises.
Jesus gives a focused note to each of the seven.

If all promises are for all people at all times... why does Jesus not address these letters to the Church in general?
If a promise, or admonishment, is directed at one group of people... it may apply to others... but it is mainly for the ones addressed.
 
I agree... but I did not quote the promise.
The discussion is not about the promise.
The only words of consequence to this discussion are "hour of temptation".
I have explained this before so please keep up.

I believe that Gods promise in these verses are to the Philadelphian Church as He says.
Jesus Himself says that these promises are only for the Philadelphia Church.
There is no Church in Philadelphia today.
Philadelphia and the other churches are not mentioned at all in Revelation during the tribulation .
The " hour of Temptation" cannot apply to them if they are not there.
 
There is no Church in Philadelphia today.
Philadelphia and the other churches are not mentioned at all in Revelation during the tribulation .
The " hour of Temptation" cannot apply to them if they are not there.
Your logic is faulty.
How can a promise be given to a non-existent Church.
Jesus gives a promise to the Church and so it must be appicable.
Remember that Church just means gathering together of people for a purpose.
The building is not important.

If Christ says the Church of Philadelphia gets a blessing... then there is a Church of Philadelphia.
 
Your logic is faulty.
How can a promise be given to a non-existent Church.
Jesus gives a promise to the Church and so it must be appicable.
They did exist .
& Jesus did make good on His promise when the were here .
They are with the Lord now & that is why they are not involved in the tribulation.
If you knew about the actual church in Philadelphia you would know how the Lord's promise was already applied to them
 
They did exist .
& Jesus did make good on His promise when the were here .
They are with the Lord now & that is why they are not involved in the tribulation.
If you knew about the actual church in Philadelphia you would know how the Lord's promise was already applied to them
And that part of the prophecy was fulfilled.
But not all prophecies are so short lived.
Just because we see what looks like a physical fulfilment of a prophecy doesn't mean that it is fulfilled.
Most prophecies have a physical and a spiritual aspect.
A "now" and "not yet" aspect to them.
Maybe the spiritual is dealt with first and maybe the physical.

Food for thought.
 
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