No... I think you have that backwards... or one of us does.
The world is still here so prophecy is NOT fulfilled yet.
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The Great Tribulation
- Thread starter Edward
- Start date
The world is still here so prophecy is NOT fulfilled yet.
There seems to me a difficulty with this argument, as it would mean that Matt 24:21 must have occurred in its entirety:
Mat 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. (ESV)
Yet, it seems that there have been a number of things, a number of "tribulations," throughout history that were arguably much worse than what happened in Jerusalem in 70 AD. Not least of which was WWII, especially the Holocaust and the dropping of atomic bombs on Japan, but also the fact that it involved so many nations, much like WWI.
So, perhaps it could be argued that Matt 24:21 applies to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, but it seems to me that if that is the case, then either Jesus was incorrect that there would never be such a tribulation ever again, or there is yet also future fulfillment. Or, it could just be that verses 15-31 are all speaking of the future, since we know that verses 27-31 haven't happened yet.
Consecrated Life
Member
That often happens when the posts of nameless ghost debunkers are cited as proof of something, completely void of any actual text from said ghost debunker's post is provided.
Providing an actual quote from the poster you claim has debunked something is infinitely important & goes a long way in strengthening your claim.
Just saying.
I have no clue what you just said.
I am sure it made sense to you... but to me it was just word salad.
Consecrated Life
Member
Not having a clue certainly explains why you attached no name , source , or text to this cited " debunking" poster of yours.
I would attach no name, source or quote myself in the absence of any facts.
You are a good sport though chum, thanks again.
Shilohsfoal
Member
He's talking about Edward in post 50.
Seriously,how could you have missed it?
Your telling someone else they don't have a clue when your the one not paying attention.
As I've stated, in order to properly understand Mat 24, you must read the parallel verses in Mark 13 and Luke 21 which clarifies Mat 24 as the question to Jesus is different. 2 separate and distinct events Jesus teaches about in his response. One, the destruction of Jerusalem which was the 70 AD event, and the other is the end of the age or his return.
Sure, I agree that there are at least two questions being asked, but you said that Matt 24 refers to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. We know that Matt 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:25-28) haven't happened yet, so perhaps you can delineate which verses apply to the one question and which to the second (or third, if that's how you see it).
God speaks to us in scripture of a 3 1/2 year tribulation during the time of the seventh trumpet sounding as being time, times and half time which equals 1260 days = 3 ½ years or 3 ½ Times – Hebrew calendar only had 30 days for each month and this is where you get 1260 days or 3 ½ years. This will be the time of the son of perdition taking his seat in Jerusalem promising peace and safety causing all to take its mark or die a martyr's death as they refuse to denounce Christ and bow down and worship this beast, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; Rev 13; 20:4.
[Scripture reference]
Revelation 12:14; Daniel 7:25; Daniel 12:7
1260 days – Revelation 11:3; Revelation 12:6
42 months – Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5
No where in scripture does it mention a seven year tribulation, but only seven trumpets. Scripture says we will always have tribulation as the last time will be such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, Matthew 24:15-21; Deut 4:30; 7:19; 29:1-6; 1 Samuel 26:24; John 16:33; Romans 12:12; 24:21; James 1:2; 1 Peter 1:6.
The seven trumpets of Revelation are an end time event that is described throughout the Bible as "the shaking of the powers of heaven". Isaiah 13:9, 10; Joel 2:2, 30, 31 Amos 8:9; Zephaniah 1:15, 16; Matthew 24:29; Luke 21:25, 26; Acts 2:20; Rev 6:12, 13; 8:6-11:5.
This will be a time of God shaking the heavens and the earth, shaking those that have yet to repent and turn back to Him in as God would hope that none would perish before the second coming of Christ. This shaking of the earth will not affect those who are God's own by faith in Christ as we are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption as we are not to grieve the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 4:30. It's those who endure until the end that will be saved from being cast into the lake of fire.
Scripture does not mention a measuring of time during the sounding of each trumpet. IMO I think they will all be sounded quickly and the seventh brings in the abomination of desolation Jesus warned us to flee from. When God starts shaking the heavens and the earth many will walk in fear and fall prey to the son of perdition who claims he is God and promises peace, safety and provision to all who fear what is happening in the world and will bow down to this beast taking its mark sealing their fate of damnation.
The Coming of the Son of Man
Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
[Scripture reference]
Revelation 12:14; Daniel 7:25; Daniel 12:7
1260 days – Revelation 11:3; Revelation 12:6
42 months – Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5
No where in scripture does it mention a seven year tribulation, but only seven trumpets. Scripture says we will always have tribulation as the last time will be such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, Matthew 24:15-21; Deut 4:30; 7:19; 29:1-6; 1 Samuel 26:24; John 16:33; Romans 12:12; 24:21; James 1:2; 1 Peter 1:6.
The seven trumpets of Revelation are an end time event that is described throughout the Bible as "the shaking of the powers of heaven". Isaiah 13:9, 10; Joel 2:2, 30, 31 Amos 8:9; Zephaniah 1:15, 16; Matthew 24:29; Luke 21:25, 26; Acts 2:20; Rev 6:12, 13; 8:6-11:5.
This will be a time of God shaking the heavens and the earth, shaking those that have yet to repent and turn back to Him in as God would hope that none would perish before the second coming of Christ. This shaking of the earth will not affect those who are God's own by faith in Christ as we are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption as we are not to grieve the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 4:30. It's those who endure until the end that will be saved from being cast into the lake of fire.
Scripture does not mention a measuring of time during the sounding of each trumpet. IMO I think they will all be sounded quickly and the seventh brings in the abomination of desolation Jesus warned us to flee from. When God starts shaking the heavens and the earth many will walk in fear and fall prey to the son of perdition who claims he is God and promises peace, safety and provision to all who fear what is happening in the world and will bow down to this beast taking its mark sealing their fate of damnation.
The Coming of the Son of Man
Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Shilohsfoal
Member
The seventh trump is when Christ reigns.Not the son of perdition.The people who receive the mark of the beast recieved it during the previous 42 months while the two witnesses occupied Jerusalem.A falling away took place during their occupation of Jerusalem.
Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever
Sometimes it takes the full context to understand one single verse. But, you have every right to believe how you want. I just put my understandings out there for how I understand scripture.
Edward
2024 Supporter
The great tribulation is indeed 3 1/2 years, but there is a period of 3 1/2 years before that in prophecy that is significant to end times. For some reason it made me think of this scripture:
Matthew 16:17-19
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth [b]will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”.../NKJV
I had realized something awhile back that I never finished studying out. But some things recently could tie into this now that I think about it. Tel me what you think.
...The gates of Hell shall not prevail against it...I've always got the picture of the enemy attacking and ultimately losing in the long run, because God has already won. But I think that interpretation is wrong because, think about it...A Gate is a defensive device. A gate has nothing to do with attacking or aggression. It's nature is defensive, right?!
So what if this passage means that the gates of Hell will not prevail when they are attacked? ...By Christians I would suppose?
There's lots more to this but let's not go too fast. But who knows what all God will tell His people to do during the end times? Comments...
Matthew 16:17-19
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth [b]will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”.../NKJV
I had realized something awhile back that I never finished studying out. But some things recently could tie into this now that I think about it. Tel me what you think.
...The gates of Hell shall not prevail against it...I've always got the picture of the enemy attacking and ultimately losing in the long run, because God has already won. But I think that interpretation is wrong because, think about it...A Gate is a defensive device. A gate has nothing to do with attacking or aggression. It's nature is defensive, right?!
So what if this passage means that the gates of Hell will not prevail when they are attacked? ...By Christians I would suppose?
There's lots more to this but let's not go too fast. But who knows what all God will tell His people to do during the end times? Comments...
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
IMO, Jesus is the rock of our salvation and upon faith (faith Peter had) the true church, being the body of Christ began the day of Pentecost. The gates of hell can not prevail against Christ and all who are His own. But I feel we are getting off topic with this. It would be a good thread if you want to start one and tag me into it.
Last edited:
It looks like you are getting "this rock" mixed up.
Where in Mat 16:18 does Jesus say "I am the Rock"?
If bible translators thought that Jesus was the Rock being referred to would they not capitalise Rock?
So in your own example you use a translation that messes with your personal translation.
Your "IMO" looks to be faulty.
Edward
2024 Supporter
Gates are not mobile. Gates keep people out. If the gates can not stand up against Christ and His people...the Christ and His people may be attacking some day.
And they will not prevail.
Gates also keep people in. But, clearly Jesus is speaking of the church not being overpowered by Hades, so he is most likely referring to a common OT usage and what happened at the gates of cities. There is never any mention nor intimation in Scripture that Christ and his church will one day attack Hades.
Shilohsfoal
Member
Hades is a prison.Its where you go after you die which is the punishment for sin.
Acts 2:26-27
Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
Christ was buried in a tomb.
Christ came out of the tomb.
The grave will not be able to hold his church(assembly)when he calls it out.
Tomb=grave=hades=ditch=place of the dead.
Acts 2:26-27
Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
Christ was buried in a tomb.
Christ came out of the tomb.
The grave will not be able to hold his church(assembly)when he calls it out.
Tomb=grave=hades=ditch=place of the dead.
Edward
2024 Supporter
I hope you're right, Brother!
Except that Jesus is speaking of this life, not future resurrection:
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (ESV)
Note that first Jesus says, "you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church." He follows that with "I will give you the keys of the kingdom," and talks of binding and loosing things on earth. So, immediately prior to and immediately following Jesus saying "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it," it is all speaking of this life, things that were imminent.
Additionally, you seem to be contradicting yourself. You first say that "Hades is a prison.Its where you go after you die which is the punishment for sin." But then you say that "The grave will not be able to hold his church(assembly)when he calls it out." So, if Hades is where one goes as a punishment for sin, then how is it that believers will be there?
I do agree that Hades is simply the grave and the place where all go after death, but then it isn't a place one goes as a punishment for sin.