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The Holocaust - God's Covenant with the Jewish People

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Question 1.

If the Jews are Gods chosen people why would god allow the Holocaust to take place?

Did God keep his covenant with the Jews during the Holocaust ?




Question 2.

With the current Iran nuclear threat.. is it possible that Iran could actually wipe Israel off the map ? Can Israel possibily be harmed or will it be protected. Will god keep his covenant with the Jewish people and protect them and Israel in this modern day conflict.

Through Isaiah, God declared that “no weapon formed against†Israel would prosper. Does this apply in the modern day ??
 
nonbelieverforums said:
Question 1.

If the Jews are Gods chosen people why would god allow the Holocaust to take place?

Did God keep his covenant with the Jews during the Holocaust ?
It is important to understand the "special status" of the Jews - their "chosen-ness" if you will - ended at the cross. There are many arguments to support this which I can give, if challenged on this. Clearly, the Holocaust was a tragedy. But the fact that Jews were the victims is no more "theologically challenging" than if anybody else were the victim.

nonbelieverforums said:
Will god keep his covenant with the Jewish people and protect them and Israel in this modern day conflict.
Obviously you can predict my take on this - there are no outstanding promises to the Jewish people.
 
Obviously you can predict my take on this - there are no outstanding promises to the Jewish people

Sorry .. why because they reject Christ or you believe the covenant was only good in the first century ?
 
nonbelieverforums said:
Obviously you can predict my take on this - there are no outstanding promises to the Jewish people

Sorry .. why because they reject Christ or you believe the covenant was only good in the first century ?
My argument is that the the scriptures teach us that any promises that were specific to the Jews have all been fulfilled as of the cross.
 
But why at the Cross.. ? Because they do not beleive that Christ died for their sins correct? So because of this they are no longer the chosen people and there is no longer a covenant correct ??
 
nonbelieverforums said:
But why at the Cross.. ? Because they do not beleive that Christ died for their sins correct? So because of this they are no longer the chosen people and there is no longer a covenant correct ??
Let me try to explain my position;

1. God did choose the Jews to serve a specific role in the redemption of all mankind - for the sake of brevity, I will not elaborate on what I believe that role to be.

2. The role that the Jew played was accomplished at the cross.

3. The Jews, having fulfilled their role, no longer are in any sense "special" in the eyes of God - God "treats them" (after the cross) exactly as he treats everyone else.
 
nonbelieverforums said:
Drew your of what view .. preterist .. full... partial ??
I think I am a partial preterist.

I am preterist in the sense that I think that Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24 are prophecies of the fall of Jerusalem, not an end time scenario.

I am "only partial" in the sense that I believe Jesus will indeed return in the future.
 
then drew how to reacon the verse about if the stars quit shining then the lord will cast away isreal? Or what about in Romans when paul speaks about the promises concerning Isreal ,or the saying by Jesus Barucha besham adonai?

jason
 
nonbelieverforums said:
Question 1.

If the Jews are Gods chosen people why would god allow the Holocaust to take place?

Did God keep his covenant with the Jews during the Holocaust ?




Question 2.

With the current Iran nuclear threat.. is it possible that Iran could actually wipe Israel off the map ? Can Israel possibily be harmed or will it be protected. Will god keep his covenant with the Jewish people and protect them and Israel in this modern day conflict.

Through Isaiah, God declared that “no weapon formed against†Israel would prosper. Does this apply in the modern day ??

If Im not mistaken the people who were called a chosen people by the Lord were destroyed in the wilderness after being deliverd out of bondage in Egypt.You speaking of that chosen people or are you speaking of another chosen people?
 
Drew said:
Sorry .. why because they reject Christ or you believe the covenant was only good in the first century
My argument is that the the scriptures teach us that any promises that were specific to the Jews have all been fulfilled as of the cross.

Are you saying that all the promises that God made to the Jewish people were fulfilled at the cross? Could you be more specific?


THE SILENCE OF G-D

On a wall in a cellar in Cologne, Germany, where Jews had hidden from the Nazis, there was found an inscription. The anonymous author who perished with his fellow victims left behind these words: "I believe in the sun even when it's not shining. I believe in love even when not feeling it. I believe in G-d even when He is silent."

Of all the difficulties Jews had to endure during the Holocaust, perhaps the hardest of all was the apparent absence of G-d. Jews cried, and their Creator did not seem to hear. Jews prayed and there was no response. Jews died al kiddush Ha-shem, sanctifying the name of the L-rd with their last breath on earth, and the heavens only responded with silence. How could the Jews continue to believe? Is it conceivable for a compassionate G-d and the concentration camps to co-exist?
"Is There a G-d After Auschwitz?"

The wonder is not that there were Jews who lost their faith in Auschwitz. Far more remarkable is the fact that many Jews continued to cling to their faith and maintain their belief in their divine Ruler of the Universe. After the war, Richard Rubinstein pronounced G-d dead in his daring work, After Auschwitz: Radical Theology and Contemporary Judaism. He pointedly asked the question that would remain to this day the single greatest challenge to the monotheistic faith that the Jews had championed since their father Abraham:

I believe that the greatest single challenge to modern Judaism arises out of the question of G-d and the death camps. How can Jews believe in an omnipotent, beneficent G-d after Auschwitz? Traditional Jewish theology maintains that G-d is the ultimate, omnipotent actor in the historical drama. It has interpreted every major catastrophe in Jewish history as G-d's punishment of a sinful Israel. I fail to see how this position can be maintained without regarding Hitler and the S.S. as instruments of G-d's will. The idea is simply too obscene for me to accept.

How, then, has G-d survived in the face of this rational onslaught? To believe that the Jews suffered as punishment for sin is indeed brutal insensitivity compounded by ignorance. It is, as Jewish theologians have suggested, destroying European Jewry yet one more time, besmirching these Jews after their death even as they were degraded and murdered in life.

Jews have been able to maintain their faith because the Holocaust affirmed a fundamental belief of Judaism that makes religion all the more necessary. The Holocaust proved the failure of man, not the failure of G-d. In giving man free will, the option to do either good or evil, G-d effectively ties His own hands to prevent humankind from becoming merely puppets. What the world witnessed in the 1940's was how low it could sink when it forsakes ethics and law, and that moral conscience is the greatest gift of the Jews to mankind. Far from delegitimating G-d, the Holocaust made clear that without Him and His teachings, the earth could not survive.

imagefrom: "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Jewish History and Culture," pp. 263-264, by Rabbi Benjamin Blech, Alpha Books, New York, 1999
 
Ok fine so if the jewish people are not currently gods chosen people let me ask about Israel then.

Will Israel be protected by god in the modern day. This is the birth place of Jesus. Is there any scripture that would suggest that god will protect Israel in the modern day no matter what i.e. war, nuclear conflict. Does Isaiah 54:17 say this. I am obviously following the Iran Israel conflict very closely. Could Israel be wiped off the map or is it impossible based on scripture ?

Russia and Iran are doing joint naval maneuvers in the Caspian Sea. Russia continues to assit with Iran's nuclear program which is being tested in Korea.

Ahmadinejad believes that he has been sent by Allah to destroy Israel and the United States in order that he can summon the great Mahdi. One of his Missles is called "Mahdi

So hense my concerns for Israel and the jewish people. So please tell me about Israel in the modern day will god protect Israel or could it be wiped off the map ? I am not asking for a political opinion strictly biblical please.
 
THE RICH MAND AND LAZARUS is a parable that shows how the Jews lost there favor as God's choosen people for a stime.

Luke chapter 16
Mark 4:34 says, "But without a parable Jesus spoke not unto them but when they were alone He expounded all things to His disciples." This scripture proves that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is only a parable. Contrary to traditional teaching, the rich man does not represent the wicked; neither does Lazarus the beggar represent the righteous. Psalm 37:25 says, "I have not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread." This parable is not a type of the righteous begging bread from the wicked.

The rich man in this parable represents Judah who had "five brethren." Judah retained the throne of Israel, which is typified by the purple the rich man was clothed in. Judah retained the priesthood which is typified by the fine linen that he was clothed in. And Judah retained Jerusalem, the prosperous headquarters of Israel, which "fared sumptuously."

Lazarus represents the rest of Israel who lived outside the gates of Jerusalem. They had lost the kingship. They had lost the priesthood, and they depended on Judah for both natural and spiritual government. Because of their rebellion against the Lord they had become spiritually starved and sick. The dogs represented the Gentiles, who shared the crumbs from the Master's table and were more of a comfort to the ten other tribes of Israel than Judah was.

The beggar died first, which represents the ten norther tribes going into captivity. "He was carried by the angels" represents God's control over their journey into captivity. And, he was comforted in Abraham's bosom, represents the spiritual revival that took place while they were in captivity.
Later on the rich man died. This represents Judah being taken into captivity about 100 years later. It says that Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom, but it says that the rich man was "buried." It does not say that Lazarus was buried. Judah, as a nation, was buried, never to be a nation in its own right again. The people of Judah will find restoration only when God reunites them once again with their brethren in the other tribes. It is true that some of Judah returned to their land after captivity, but they have lived out a miserable existence and have never been recognized as a nation in their own right again. Not even the present day state of Israel is the restoration that God is going to bring about.
The scripture says that Jesus came to his own, but His own received Him not. And Jewerey has been in a veritable lake of fire ever since they rejected Christ. There was a great gulf fixed between Lazarus and the rich man. This represents the division that was predicted in Zechariah 11:14. "I cut asunder my other staff that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel." And verse ten says they lost the covenant blessing. This great gulf is fixed so that even though Christ rose from the dead, they will not, indeed they cannot believe.

But thank God, this gulf is not eternal. A time is coming when God is going to purify and untie Israel once again and establish them as rulers in His millennial kingdom. Hosea 1:10 & 11 predicts, "In the place where it was said unto them Ye are not My people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together and appoint themselves on head (even Jesus Christ the Messiah whom they had before rejected).
Christ has bridge the great gulf and will restore the covenant blessing to a united Israel when the time is right to do so. Then will all Israel, including Judah, benefit from Ephesians 2:12-16, "That ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise. But now in Christ Jesus, ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us, that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby."
 
nonbelieverforums said:
Ok fine so if the jewish people are not currently gods chosen people let me ask about Israel then.

Will Israel be protected by god in the modern day......So please tell me about Israel in the modern day will god protect Israel or could it be wiped off the map ? I am not asking for a political opinion strictly biblical please.
Since I believe that all the promises made to Israel have already been fulfilled, I think that the Bible has nothing at all to say about anything related to Israel from 70 AD onward.
 
nonbelieverforums said:
Question 1.

If the Jews are Gods chosen people why would god allow the Holocaust to take place?

Did God keep his covenant with the Jews during the Holocaust ?




Question 2.

With the current Iran nuclear threat.. is it possible that Iran could actually wipe Israel off the map ? Can Israel possibily be harmed or will it be protected. Will god keep his covenant with the Jewish people and protect them and Israel in this modern day conflict.

Through Isaiah, God declared that “no weapon formed against†Israel would prosper. Does this apply in the modern day ??
If you want to apply Isa 54:17 to the modern day State of Israel, then what about:

Isa 54:14 - In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

Is there terrorism the modern day State of Israel?
 
Drew said:
Since I believe that all the promises made to Israel have already been fulfilled, I think that the Bible has nothing at all to say about anything related to Israel from 70 AD onward.

Your beliefs are consistent with a type of replacement theology for which there is no basis in the Hebrew Bible. The Torah and the God's covenant with Israel is eternal:-

Psalm 111:2 The works of the LORD [are] great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein. [3] His work [is] honorable and glorious: and his righteousness endureth for ever. [4] He hath made his wonderful works to be remembered: the LORD [is] gracious and full of compassion. [5] He hath given meat unto them that fear him: He will ever be mindful of His covenant. [6] He hath shewed his people the power of his works, that He may give them the heritage of the heathen. [7] The works of his hands [are] verity and judgment; all His commandments [are] sure. [8] They stand fast for ever and ever, [and are] done in truth and uprightness. [9] He sent redemption unto his people: He hath commanded His covenant for ever: holy and reverend [is] His name. (KJV)

BTW, is it a fair assumption to presume that you also believe that the covenant of the cross replaced the Mosaic covenant, as per Romans 10:4? If that is so please tell us when the promises and events foretold by the prophet to the Jewish nation took place as per Jer. 31:30-39
 
nonbelieverforums said:
Ok fine so if the jewish people are not currently gods chosen people let me ask about Israel then.

Will Israel be protected by god in the modern day. This is the birth place of Jesus. Is there any scripture that would suggest that god will protect Israel in the modern day no matter what i.e. war, nuclear conflict. Does Isaiah 54:17 say this. I am obviously following the Iran Israel conflict very closely. Could Israel be wiped off the map or is it impossible based on scripture ?

Russia and Iran are doing joint naval maneuvers in the Caspian Sea. Russia continues to assit with Iran's nuclear program which is being tested in Korea.

Ahmadinejad believes that he has been sent by Allah to destroy Israel and the United States in order that he can summon the great Mahdi. One of his Missles is called "Mahdi

So hense my concerns for Israel and the jewish people. So please tell me about Israel in the modern day will god protect Israel or could it be wiped off the map ? I am not asking for a political opinion strictly biblical please.


Woe unto thee,Chorazin! woe unto thee,Bethsadia!for if the mighty works,which were done in you,had been done in Tyre and Sidon,they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
But I say unto you,It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgement,than for you.
And thou Capernaum,which art exalted unto heaven,thou shalt be brought down to hell;for if the mighty works,which have been done in thee,had been done in Sodom,it would have remained unto this day.
But I say unto you,That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgement than for thee.
 
Can you translate this for me .. with you lot I never know if the verse applies to the modern day, the first century , it is a meaphore, symbolic, etc..
 
Thursday, August 6, 2009
Understanding the Satanic Secular Smoke Screen Over Israel


By Bill Salus

A recent timely article that accurately assesses the current geo-political situation in the Middle East entitled “Israel: Box It and Tape The Lid Shutâ€Â, was released by Robert Maginnis. His article, gives clarity to the political predicament, the international community in general, and the Obama administration specifically, has boxed Israel into.

The Maginnis piece delivers invaluable insights as to the geo-political realities facing Israel. Now lets take a look on a deeper level at the geo-“prophetical†implications of current Mideast events.
It appears geo-prophetically that all of this Hail Mary diplomacy Maginnis articulately points to is nothing more than a temporary satanic secular smoke screen. According to the Bible prophecies described in Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38, Satan appears to have big plans set in place to destroy Israel in the near future.

The basic satanic premise for the demise of Israel, is probably that if the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, i.e. the Jews, are eliminated then the God of those patriarchs who promised them descendants forever, becomes a promise breaker. Furthermore, according to Bible prophecies like Hosea 5:15 and elsewhere, a faithful end time’s remnant of Jews will beckon the return of Christ to the earth. According to these prophecies this is a pre-requisite of the Second Coming of Christ. Thus Satan furthermore likely deduces that if there are no Jews, there can be no Second Coming.

These two forthcoming Israeli war prophecies represent an inner circle of Arab populations that share common borders with Israel, in Psalm 83, and an outer ring of Arab, Persian, and other assorted population composites in Ezekiel 38:1-6.

The two attached maps, bordered by pentagons, show the inner circle and outer ring correlations and superimpose the ancient peoples names over their modern day equivalents.

These powerful Israeli war prophecies are foretold to occur in the end times and when closely studied seem to happen sequentially and in fairly rapid succession. They can be likened to a devilish one–two punch that is intended to knock Israel down to the canvas and out for the final count.

Diplomatically incarcerating the Jews into a box, which the Obama administration may unknowingly be doing, obviously makes it easier for Satan to militarily incinerate them later through these coming prophetic invasions. Fortunately for Israel, according to Bible prophecy, the Devil’s genocidal attempts against the Jews will be thwarted. As I point out in my book Isralestine, The Ancient Blueprints of the Future Middle East, the I.D.F. purportedly stops the Psalm 83 Arab assault and God will divinely destroy the Ezekiel 38 & 39 invaders.

Psalm 83 likely occurs when the Arabs believe they can once and for all defeat Israel conventionally, something they have failed miserably at in the wars 1948, 1967, and 1973. However, unlike those previously failed conventional Arab war efforts, the final Psalm 83 attack should combine both traditional Arab methods of war along with the relatively recently formatted tried and tested unconventional tactics of terrorism.

This coming final Arab advance against Israel appears to be a climactic concluding battle inclusive of nations like Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan, as well as terrorist driven non-nation populations, like the Palestinians, Hezbollah, Hamas, Fatah, and even perhaps the Al-Qaeda.

Most of these above Arab nations have developed advanced military arsenals. Simultaneously they have been transforming their terrorist bedfellows from thugs into political parties, who themselves have also become armed and dangerous. As such it appears that the confidence level of these Arab nations and/or terrorist populations to war against Israel has risen to an unprecedented high.

Although Iran is flanked alongside Russia in the Ezekiel 38 invasion, it is not listed among the Psalm 83 confederates. Why not? Is it merely because they are Persian rather than Arab? I think not. I believe that something powerful soon happens to Iran that renders them temporarily of little to no utility to the Psalm 83 Arabs. It is hard to say what event neutralizes Iran; however, a strategic Israeli airstrike that effectively sets Iran’s nuclear program back to the Stone Age could certainly do the trick.

If Iran’s nuclear plants are struck, then Russia would likely expediently run to their rescue. Russia is heavily invested in a multiplicity of Iran’s military endeavors. Not only are they assisting with their nuclear aspirations, but they have also contracted to sell them the Russian made S-300 and S-400 state of the art missile defense systems.

Furthermore, if Iran is attacked, Russian and Iranian relations would undoubtedly grow stronger and their collective hatred of Israel likely grow deeper. In the aftermath of such an attack, a strengthened Russian-Iranian relationship coupled with a deepened Anti-Semitic sentiment, would appear to fit well into Satan’s grand scheme of things. Such an adversarial disposition against Israel could easily pave the way for the coming invasion described in Ezekiel 38 & 39.

Any which way you size it up, putting Israel in a box and taping the lid shut could be the exact prophetic prescription the devil desires for Israel in these end times. When we look at the geo-prophetic implications of modern day Middle East events, we are reminded in 1 John 5:19 "that the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one."

It is obvious that humanity, apart from a small evangelical Christian contingent within it, has entirely disconnected from God’s plan to make Israel a great nation as per Genesis 12:2-3. This ancient prophecy encourages mankind to further facilitate the fulfillment of a Greater Israel by “blessing†it as a nation rather than by boxing it in, or otherwise “cursing†it.

Currently Israel occupies only a small sliver of the land bestowed to it in Genesis 15:18, which stretches between the Nile and Euphrates rivers. This is land that the international community, inclusive of the Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38:1-6 populations, cannot presently fathom allotting for a sovereign Jewish State. But, in the aftermath of the Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38 & 39 prophetic episodes, Israel will likely begin to gradually annex some of this Promised Land. If their Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38:1-6 enemies are defeated, who will try to prevent them from doing so?

However, for now it seems that all this political double talk about two-state peace solutions, foreign policies of Engagement, and the Obama-Clinton defense umbrella, which are intended to stabilize the Middle East, will likely turn out to be nothing more than Satanically driven secular smoke screens intended to set the stage for the elimination of the Jews once and for all.
 
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