The Holocaust - God's Covenant with the Jewish People

[einstein]

Since I believe that all the promises made to Israel have already been fulfilled, I think that the Bible has nothing at all to say about anything related to Israel from 70 AD onward.

Your beliefs are consistent with a type of replacement theology for which there is no basis in the Hebrew Bible. The Torah and the God's covenant with Israel is eternal:-

My position involves no "replacement" whatsoever. And I certainly disagree about the eternal nature of the Torah. I will not address the Torah matter directly in this post.

No promise that was actually made to the Jews and to the Jews only has been "transferred" away from them and passed onto the church. My view is often misrepresented as "replacement" but it really is not. I fully grant that my view leans heavily on the belief that some promises can and did have a deeply surprising fulfillment, but one that can be legitimately seen as consistent with the promise.

I suspect (but this is only a suspicion, but we will see) that we will disagree as follows:

You (einstein) will take a promise to the Jews and read it "at face value".

I (drew) will argue that the promise "as read" is actually inherently ambiguous as to its true meaning and has been fulfilled in a way other than the way you read the promise.

You beliefs are totally consistent with replacement theology and inconsistent with the Hebrew Bible which is unequivocal rather than ambiguous concerning the the everlasting nature of God's Torah and his covenant (brit) with the Jewish people. Perhaps you can provide one example from the Tanach to prove your point that the Jewish people's role of "choseness" has ended and perhaps you might respond to my previous question regarding Jer 31?

 

[Benoni]

Shilohsfoal"

What are you trying to say? There is nothing in this verse that says anything about believing or not believing; could you be so kind to point out where this is indicated in Luke 2:10 or are you just trying to add words to this verse that are not in the verse to push your agenda?


Luke 2: 10And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy,which shall be to all people.

 

[Benoni]

I think you are refreshing

Can Christians not take a joke? Are you really still bent up about a small comment like that? "A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger." Ring any bells? "For the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God." Just chill bro, I meant no offense and yet you continue to scapegoat me.

 

[Sinthesis]

I would hope you would participate in the forums when you have something that might benefit the members scripturally, god driven.. not driven by your ego.

Quelle Crack Vous Smokez ??

 

[Drew]

You beliefs are totally consistent with replacement theology

Definitions can be misleading. Here is an attempt at a summary overview of what I believe (and I believe that my beliefs are entirely consistent with both the Old and the New Testaments):

1. God entered into a covenant with Abraham and his physical descendents;

2. Certain promises were made to Abraham. Some of those promises were not actually made to his “physical†descendents, that is to ethnic Israel. This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 4;

3. Now I want to be crystal clear about this. If a case can be made - and I think it can in respect to many promises thought to be for ethnic Israel – that a certain promise “X†was never made to ethnic Israel in the first place, then it would be deeply misleading to label a person who argues that those promises are actually for the church as therefore being proponent of replacement theology. There is no “replacement†going on if the promises actually never were for ethnic Israel in the first place;

4. While God did indeed make certain promises to the nation of Israel, all those promises have already been fulfilled;

5. I do not embrace any kind of belief system where God has reneged on any promises to anybody. Perhaps some people believe this, but I do not. That is the problem with applying the term “replacement theology†to someone like me. The very term implies that I embrace the notion that God has arbitrarily taken promises away from the nation of Israel and handed them over to the church. I believe no such thing, so please do not represent me as believing any such thing, even if simply through use of the tem “replacement theologyâ€Â.

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Well I think were are going to have proof if a "current" covenant with Israel and the Jewish people exists very very soon.

This Iran / Israel show down is about to explode anytime. It's a time bomb ticking even as we speak. Both sides right now are prepared for all out war.

As I am certain there will be jewish casualties in Israel, let's see if one single city in Israel gets distroyed.

Lebanon's military commander reportedly is reviewing troops in the south of the country, near Israel, and warning them of a potential conflict with Israel."
Additionally, Hezbollah has been massively rearmed by Iran and Syria with as many as 40,000 missiles. Some of those missiles are newly developed by Iran and have ranges far exceeding the missiles used in the war fought three summers ago.

 

[Drew]

… and inconsistent with the Hebrew Bible which is unequivocal rather than ambiguous concerning the the everlasting nature of God's Torah

Please substantiate this assertion. I know of no Biblical statement that clearly asserts the eternality of the Torah.

… Perhaps you can provide one example from the Tanach to prove your point that the Jewish people's role of "choseness" has ended

That is like asking someone to make a case from the first 120 minutes of the movie “The Sixth Sense†that the Bruce Willis character is actually dead - something that you only find out at the end. But, and this is crucial – when you find out that the Bruce Willis character is indeed dead, you realize that the first 120 minutes are entirely consistent with this. This is the kind of argument I will make in respect to the Old Testament. Without the New Testament, the “end†of the role of Israel is not at all clear – but there is nothing that requires us to understand that Israel’s “chosenness†will last forever.

…and perhaps you might respond to my previous question regarding Jer 31?

I assume that you are referring to this:

please tell us when the promises and events foretold by the prophet to the Jewish nation took place as per Jer. 31:30-39

I am out of time right now and need to think of the best way to try to answer this. In short, I think I know the general shape of my response but I need to think about how to express it.

 

[Drew]

Well I think were are going to have proof if a "current" covenant with Israel and the Jewish people exists very very soon.

This Iran / Israel show down is about to explode anytime. It's a time bomb ticking even as we speak. Both sides right now are prepared for all out war.

I trust that you realize that any such war would in no way be evidence of an existing covenant between God and Israel. It is simply not correct thinking to argue as follows:

1. There are prophecies about Israel going to war with its neighbours;
2. If a war then breaks out sometime after August 10, 2009, this must be fulfillment of prophecy.

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Many of the articles that I am reading about the Iran / Israel current conflict keep mentioning Isaiah 54:17 . I realise your argument is this verse ended at the crosss. But many view this verse suggesting that Israel could not be distroyed. This was the basis of my question.



Isaiah 54:17

No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.

 

[Sinthesis]

Many of the articles that I am reading about the Iran / Israel current conflict keep mentioning Isaiah 54:17 . I realise your argument is this verse ended at the crosss. But many view this verse suggesting that Israel could not be distroyed. This was the basis of my question.



Isaiah 54:17

No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.

As I have pointed out before, three verses earlier we are told terror will not come near Israel. So, is today's State of Israel terror-free?

Isa 54:14 - In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

I'll also add that nearly 20% of the State of Israel's population (non Jewish) would probably disagree about being far from oppression.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Shilohsfoal"

What are you trying to say? There is nothing in this verse that says anything about believing or not believing; could you be so kind to point out where this is indicated in Luke 2:10 or are you just trying to add words to this verse that are not in the verse to push your agenda?


Luke 2: 10And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy,which shall be to all people.

Then perhaps you should pay attention to the question being asked.
The question was about the unbelieving and you responded with a verse that is not about the unbelieving.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Many of the articles that I am reading about the Iran / Israel current conflict keep mentioning Isaiah 54:17 . I realise your argument is this verse ended at the crosss. But many view this verse suggesting that Israel could not be distroyed. This was the basis of my question.



Isaiah 54:17

No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.

I have a question for you nonbelieverforums.
Do you believe the prophecy that speaks of Persia and others destroying Babylon after a certain amount of time given to Babylon ?

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Are you talking about the Babylon then or the rebuilt Babylon now??

 

[nonbelieverforums]

There is a group on facebook called "Has God rejected Israel?"

Does anyone agree with the statements below:

God is finished with Israel since she rejected her Messiah 2000 years ago and they claim that all the blessings have been transferred to the Church and Christians but this is a heresy and one that needs to be refuted. It is causing Chism within the Church and Christians who follow this belief without even knowing it has a name 'REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY" are instead of "blessing Israel" are cursing them and laying claim to their land. This land of Israel was given to the Jews for all eternity and God has returned them after 2000 years to their ancient homeland and now we have so-called Christians saying that they are not entitled to it and it should be given to the Palestinians. We have the Roman Catholic Church stating that the land is theirs. Hitler used Replacement Theology do justify his "final solution" because of the teachings of the early Church Fathers and this has to be brought out into the light of day so that this error and heresy can be discerned for what it is. Anti-Zionism is equal to anti-semitism!

HAS GOD REJECTED ISRAEL?



Jer 33:23 The LORD said to me,
Jer 33:24 "Have you noticed how people are saying that I have rejected Israel and Judah, the two families that I chose? And so they look with contempt on my people and no longer consider them a nation.
Jer 33:25 But I, the LORD, have a covenant with day and night, and I have made the laws that control earth and sky.
Jer 33:26 And just as surely as I have done this, so I will maintain my covenant with Jacob's descendants and with my servant David. I will choose one of David's descendants to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I will be merciful to my people and make them prosperous again."



Rom 11:1 I ask, then: Did God reject his own people? Certainly not! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God has not rejected his people, whom he chose from the beginning. You know what the scripture says in the passage where Elijah pleads with God against Israel:
Rom 11:3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me."
Rom 11:4 What answer did God give him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not worshiped the false god Baal."
Rom 11:5 It is the same way now: there is a small number left of those whom God has chosen because of his grace.
Rom 11:6 His choice is based on his grace, not on what they have done. For if God's choice were based on what people do, then his grace would not be real grace.

Zec 3:9 ................... and in a single day I will take away the sin of this land.

Rom 11:11 I ask, then: When the Jews stumbled, did they fall to their ruin? By no means! Because they sinned, salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make the Jews jealous of them.
Rom 11:12 The sin of the Jews brought rich blessings to the world, and their spiritual poverty brought rich blessings to the Gentiles. Then, how much greater the blessings will be when the complete number of Jews is included!.......
.Rom 11:18 So then, you must not despise those who were broken off like branches. How can you be proud? You are just a branch; you don't support the roots---the roots support you .........
Rom 11:23 And if the Jews abandon their unbelief, they will be put back in the place where they were; for God is able to do that.

Rom 11:17 Some of the branches of the cultivated olive tree have been broken off, and a branch of a wild olive tree has been joined to it. You Gentiles are like that wild olive tree, and now you share the strong spiritual life of the Jews.....

Rom 11:25 There is a secret truth, my friends, which I want you to know, for it will keep you from thinking how wise you are. It is that the stubbornness of the people of Israel is not permanent, but will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to God.
Rom 11:26 And this is how all Israel will be saved. As the scripture says, "The Savior will come from Zion and remove all wickedness from the descendants of Jacob.
Rom 11:27 I will make this covenant with them when I take away their sins

Those Who Bless Israel Will Be Blessed
and Those Who Curse Israel Will Be Cursed

Those Who Bless Israel Will Be Blessed, and Those Who Curse Israel Will Be Cursed
In the Book of Genesis, Chapter 12, Verse 1-3, we see what God says about His response to how people treat Israel:
“And I will bless those that bless you and curse the one who curses you. And in you shall all families of the earth be blessed.â€Â
In the Book of Numbers, where the Bible is telling us about the Nation of Israel that God delivers out of bondage in Egypt, it tells us:
“He crouched. He lay down as a lion, and as a great lion. Who shall stir him up? Blessed is he who blesses you, and cursed is he who curses you.â€Â
Although many will point out that this Scripture had its fulfillment in the Old Testament days, it doesn’t seem to have any time-related limitation on it. It doesn’t say, “I will bless those who bless you only until the Messiah comes. . .†or have any other conditions that would limit the result of actions toward Israel.
Some will object that the promise of blessings applies to nations only, not individuals. To this we respond that our God is a just and faithful God, not giving promises in the Bible and then taking them away through trickery of the meanings of words!
Does this mean that those who bless Israel will become rich, famous, leaders of rock bands and have whiter teeth? Obviously not! Blessings come in many ways. Those who are impoverished in a worldly sense may have blessings in family, good health, and spiritual riches that others find hard to see. What good is it to have vast financial wealth if one does not have the health to enjoy it? And does God promise the blessings in this life only? Not at all! We may not see the full extent of blessings given to us until Jesus returns to judge everyone. In the book of Revelation, Chapter 22, verse 12, Jesus makes a promise. He says:
“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according as his work is.â€Â
Note that orthodox Christianity makes it abundantly clear that salvation is a gift provided by the grace of God, not something that we earn, but Jesus also makes it clear that rewards, after we enter heaven, are dependent on what we did with the talents that God gave us. In fact, in the Bible book of Matthew, Chapter 6, verses 19-20, Jesus encourages us to build our treasures in heaven with these words:
“Do not lay up treasures on earth for yourselves, where moth and rust corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal. But lay up treasures in Heaven for yourselves, where neither moth nor rust corrupt, and wherethieves do not break through nor steal.â€Â

 

[azlan88]

Mind if I jump in and say something? I don't think it was mentioned here that in 1948, Israel became a nation again. Is it not written in Bible that Israelialites would be taken captive by foreigners, their land made desolate, and then when the time of the gentiles has been fulfilled God will take them back to their land? The mass persecution of Jews and their return to their homeland of Israel was Bible prophecy fulfilled. And what about the land? the Arabs couldn't grow anything in that area for centuries because the land belonged to the Jews, not them. It was the Jews who turned that wasteland called Jerusalem into a paradise. Providence intervened.
And that's not the end of it. It is written in Revelation that all the armies of the world will go out to destroy Israel, and then like lightning Jesus will fight the armies of the earth. The beast will cast into hell alive, a new earth will be created, and Christ will reign in Jerusalem for a thousand years. It's unbelievable how many Christians, or so callled Christians, don't even crack open a Bible.

 

[jasoncran]

Mind if I jump in and say something? I don't think it was mentioned here that in 1948, Israel became a nation again. Is it not written in Bible that Israelialites would be taken captive by foreigners, their land made desolate, and then when the time of the gentiles has been fulfilled God will take them back to their land? The mass persecution of Jews and their return to their homeland of Israel was Bible prophecy fulfilled. And that's not the end of it. It is written in Revelation that all the armies of the world will go out to destroy Israel, and then like lightning Jesus will fight the armies of the earth. The beast will cast into hell alive, a new earth will be created, and Christ will reign in Jerusalem for a thousand years. It's unbelievable how many Christians, or so callled Christians, don't even crack open a Bible.

not to mention the six day war or the fact that isreali land was unproductive until Isreal is nation, there is oil there, not mention they produce and export a lot fruit, their economy is the largest in the middle east

hmmmm makes you wonder

jason

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Mind if I jump in and say something? I don't think it was mentioned here that in 1948, Israel became a nation again. Is it not written in Bible that Israelialites would be taken captive by foreigners, their land made desolate, and then when the time of the gentiles has been fulfilled God will take them back to their land? The mass persecution of Jews and their return to their homeland of Israel was Bible prophecy fulfilled

I did a post some time ago Israel is not a Nation? I also consider Israel becoming a nation in 1948 Prophecy fulfilled. In fact in my view it sets the stage for all other events in sequence. But there was a huge argument on that post alone that Israel was not a nation ?

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39263

Sinthesis- The 'State of Israel' established in 1948 is a parliamentary democracy.

Is Israel a 'nation' because the UN proclaimed it?

Will you accept a single-world-religion if the UN proclaims it?




- Parousa - Todays Israel is a multi ethnic secular democracy that has ZERO connection to the pre desolation Hebrew nation. Religiously or genetically. They have made a fraudulent claim to the Name "Israel" as there is NO Isreal apart from Christ. Jesus Christ IS Israel.

 

[Drew]

God is finished with Israel since she rejected her Messiah 2000 years ago and they claim that all the blessings have been transferred to the Church and Christians but this is a heresy and one that needs to be refuted.

Well perhaps this particular version is heresy, but the notion that God "is finished" with national Israel is entirely scriptural. And this has involved no "stealing of promises".

It is causing Chism within the Church and Christians who follow this belief without even knowing it has a name 'REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY" are instead of "blessing Israel" are cursing them and laying claim to their land.

The term "replacement theology" is thrown around all too lightly. I challenge your implication that God actually promised the land of Palestine to the Jews forever. There are many of us who believe that Israel fulfilled her important and divinely mandated "election" at the cross who in no way embrace any kind of theology where God has "replaced" Israel with the church. The term "replacement theology" implies a theology where God has taken what was promised to the Jews and arbitrarily transferred those promises to the church. Perhaps some people believe this, but I certainly do not. And yet I think that God has already fulfilled all the promises He made to ethnic Israel.

This land of Israel was given to the Jews for all eternity

Please make an actual scriptural case for this.

Anti-Zionism is equal to anti-semitism!

This is both manifestly false and needlessly inflammatory.

 

[Drew]

Rom 11:1 I ask, then: Did God reject his own people? Certainly not! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God has not rejected his people, whom he chose from the beginning. You know what the scripture says in the passage where Elijah pleads with God against Israel:
Rom 11:3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me."
Rom 11:4 What answer did God give him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not worshiped the false god Baal."
Rom 11:5 It is the same way now: there is a small number left of those whom God has chosen because of his grace.
Rom 11:6 His choice is based on his grace, not on what they have done. For if God's choice were based on what people do, then his grace would not be real grace.

All true, but hardly an argument that God still sees ethnic Jews as, in any sense, a "special" people. Paul is simply arguing that God "saves Jews". No surprise there. But this text is not in any way support for the notion that God still has promises on the table for the nation of Israel.

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Drew:

I know I have asked before are you a full or partial Preterist ?? Has Ezekiel 38 39 happened already in your view.

What are you views on endtimes again ?? If you have told me before I am sorry I have forgotten.

You certainly raise a good argument on this.. in fact it is tap dancing on my faith.