Bible Study The "I AM" Delusion

[Cooper]

The Spirit of God was in Jesus. Just like the Spirit of Jesus was still in Jesus when the Spirit of God left Jesus. That is two different Spirits.

[Mar 15:34
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

Just like the spirit of satan entered Judas Iscariot.

[Luk 22:3
3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve.

Just like you and me have spirits get in us that we must cast out. Emotions.

For in him (Jesus) the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily (Colossians 2:9 NRSV)

1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory forever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1Th_5:18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

2 Peter 1:1 . . our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:16 For by him Jesus were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Hebrews 1:8 But of the Son, he says, “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, the righteous sceptre is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”(This is a remarkable passage, in which God the Father calls His Son “God.”

Colossians 1:19 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell,

Colossians 2:2-3 . . . Christ, [3] in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. He's omniscient all-knowing:

Colossians 2:9 For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily,

Eph_4:32 and be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ has forgiven you.

Ephesians 1:22-23 the church, [23] which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all. cf. Col 3:11 He's omnipresent present everywhere:

God the Father stated, “To me, every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear” Is 45:23. The same exact description is also applied to Jesus Phil 2:10-11. Many attributes that are said to belong only to “God” are applied to Jesus in Scripture. God the Father said, “besides me, there is no saviour” Is 43:11; cf. 1 Tim 4:10. Yet Jesus is called the “saviour” of mankind in passages like Luke 2:11 and many others.

Hebrews 1:8 But of the Son, he says, “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the righteous sceptre is the sceptre of thy kingdom.” This is a remarkable passage, in which God the Father calls His Son “God.” It is a reference to the Old Testament passage, Psalms 45:6-7.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever.

In Hebrews 1:6, God the Father also says that all the angels should worship God the Son. Worship can only be rightly applied to God, as we know from Exodus 34:14 and Deuteronomy 8:19. Yet Jesus accepted the worship of Himself on many occasions e.g., Mt 14:33; 28:9 and stated that He should be honoured equally with the Father Jn 5:23. In Revelation 5:8, 12-13 and Colossians 2:6-7, we find that Jesus is worshipped in every way that the Bible specifically describes worship of God the Father, with all the same words used see: Rev 4:9-11, 5:13; 7:11-12, and Rom 11:33.

John 1:1, 14 RSV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . . . [14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

John 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Php_3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the heavenly call of God in Christ Jesus.

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name is written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Rom_6:11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

I have nothing more to say.
.

 

[LABrown]

1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory.
(NKJ)
God was manifested(made known to us by Jesus) that God was in Christ. Justified in the Spirit because God is Spirit. Seen by angels because angels can see Him we cant. Preached among the Gentiles by Jesus and the apostles. Believed on in the world because of all the evidence. Received up in glory because He kept Jesus from sinning.

Answer
You should read these verses very carefully.
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the "Son of God" God abides in him. The Spirit gave me all these verses to help you understand the verse you posted.
I Jn 4:9-15
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
(NKJ)
2 Cor 5:18-19
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(NKJ)
John 17:5-7
5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7 "Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.
(NKJ)

John 14:10-11
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
(NKJ)

Mark 15:34
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
(NKJ)

 

[Hopeful]

If you would have kept going in Hebrews you would have seen the truth.

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
And of the angels He says:
“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:1-10
According to God the Father, the Son laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the work of His hands.
This passage in Hebrews about angels and the Son of God is referring to the Hebrew mystery of the Angel of the Lord.
The prophets spoke by the Spirit of Christ, who is God.
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11
Here we see the Spirit of Christ speaking through the mouth of Zechariah, proclaiming that He, Christ, stretched out the heavens, and laid the foundation of the earth. This work is the work of the Son, according to Hebrews 1:8-10
The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1


The Angel of the Lord is the Son of God, as is Himself God.

The angel of the Lord is the Son of God?
Is that a typo?

 

[JLB]

The angel of the Lord is the Son of God?
Is that a typo?

Here is what I posted.


The Angel of the Lord is the Son of God, as is Himself God.


I didn’t post this —

The angel of the Lord is the Son of God.




JLB

 

[JLB]

1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory.

This is what the scripture teaches.

God was manifested in the flesh.

God was manifested(made known to us by Jesus) that God was in Christ.

This is your own words, not scripture.

Please repent for trying to add your words to scripture.


Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:1


looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13



Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5


Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.


Who is returning to earth on the Day of the Lord with the saints?


The Father or the Son?





JLB

 

[LABrown]

The angel of the Lord is the Son of God?
Is that a typo?

Angel Of The LORD

[Jdg 13:20
20 it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar--the Angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw [this], they fell on their faces to the ground.
[Gen 16:7, 9-11
7 Now the Angel of the LORD found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. ...
9 The Angel of the LORD said to her, "Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand." 10 Then the Angel of the LORD said to her, "I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude."
11 And the Angel of the LORD said to her: "Behold, you [are] with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, Because the LORD has heard your affliction.
[Exo 3:2
2 And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush [was] not consumed.
[Num 22:23, 26-27, 31-32
23 Now the donkey saw the Angel of the LORD standing in the way with His drawn sword in His hand, and the donkey turned aside out of the way and went into the field. So Balaam struck the donkey to turn her back onto the road. ...
26 Then the Angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place where there [was] no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.
27 And when the donkey saw the Angel of the LORD, she lay down under Balaam; so Balaam's anger was aroused, and he struck the donkey with his staff. ...
31 Then the LORD opened Balaam's eyes, and he saw the Angel of the LORD standing in the way with His drawn sword in His hand; and he bowed his head and fell flat on his face.
32 And the Angel of the LORD said to him, "Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out to stand against you, because [your] way is perverse before Me.
[Jdg 2:4
4 So it was, when the Angel of the LORD spoke these words to all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voices and wept.
[Jdg 6:21
21 Then the Angel of the LORD put out the end of the staff that [was] in His hand, and touched the meat and the unleavened bread; and fire rose out of the rock and consumed the meat and the unleavened bread. And the Angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.
[Jdg 13:16-17
16 And the Angel of the LORD said to Manoah, "Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the LORD." (For Manoah did not know He [was] the Angel of the LORD.)
17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, "What [is] Your name, that when Your words come [to pass] we may honor You?"
[Isa 37:36
36 Then the angel of the LORD went out, and killed in the camp of the Assyrians one hundred and eighty-five thousand; and when [people] arose early in the morning, there were the corpses--all dead.
[Zec 1:11
11 So they answered the Angel of the LORD, who stood among the myrtle trees, and said, "We have walked to and fro throughout the earth, and behold, all the earth is resting quietly."

xxx Satan is the wrath of God.Satan was created in the image of the wrath of God. The "Angel of the LORD" is a term used to say that God the Father sent a certain Angel. Some times even satan was an angel of God.Read Job. see the relationship between satan and God.

 

[LABrown]

This is what the scripture teaches.

God was manifested in the flesh.




This is your own words, not scripture.

Please repent for trying to add your words to scripture.


Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:1


looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13



Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5


Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.


Who is returning to earth on the Day of the Lord with the saints?


The Father or the Son?





JLB

Titus 2-13

We are all looking for the appearing of God the Father, and our Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
(NKJ)

Titus 2:11-12
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
(NKJ)

1 Cor 8:6-7
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.
(NKJ)

Jude 1:4
4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.
(NKJ)

John 14:10-11
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
(NKJ)

John 7:38-39
38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
(NKJ)

Matt 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
(NKJ)

Luke 6:46-49
46 "But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say?
47 "Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like:
48 "He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.
49 "But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great."
(NKJ)

Luke 13:24-27
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
25 "When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,'
26 "then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.'
27 "But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'
(NKJ)

Rom 9:1-8
1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,
2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;
5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called."
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
(NKJ)
XXX Everyone knew that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. And that God was doing all the works. Once they knew this there was no separating them while Jesus was on earth. So when they addressed one they always included the other. The word "and" doesnt always combine two together, some times it separates them one from another.

2 Cor 5:19
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(NKJ)
then God left Jesus to die on the cross alone.

Matt 27:46
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
(NKJ)
Now knowing that how do they just address one of them without insulting the other? They address them both together.

 

[JLB]

We are all looking for the appearing of God the Father, and our Savior Jesus Christ.

Sorry but this is not what scripture says.

God the Father is not appearing, but the Son is the One appearing a second time.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Hebrews 9:28

I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 1 Timothy 6:13-14


Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. 2 Timothy 4:8


looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13



JLB

 

[LABrown]

For we who have believed in Jesus as the scripture has said.

Jesus Said Only One God The Father
Jesus said the Father is the only True God. Jesus also said He was ascending to His God, and my God, To His Father and my Father.
Paul even said the same thing.
[Jhn 17:1-3
[1] Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
[2] "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
[3] "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

[Jhn 20:17
[17] Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and [to] My God and your God.' "

[1Co 8:5-6
[5] For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),
[6] yet for us [there is] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom [are] all things, and through whom we [live].

[1Co 4:6
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.


[Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

xxx If it doesnt say it point blank it is not true. If it almost says it, it is a stumbling stone God put in scripture.

 

[Hopeful]

Here is what I posted.


The Angel of the Lord is the Son of God, as is Himself God.


I didn’t post this —

The angel of the Lord is the Son of God.

There must be some regional inflection there that deprives me of understanding your point,
How about rephrasing it, because it sounds like you believe some angel is the Son of God.

 

[Hopeful]

Angel Of The LORD

[Jdg 13:20
20 it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar--the Angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw [this], they fell on their faces to the ground.
[Gen 16:7, 9-11
7 Now the Angel of the LORD found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. ...
9 The Angel of the LORD said to her, "Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand." 10 Then the Angel of the LORD said to her, "I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude."
11 And the Angel of the LORD said to her: "Behold, you [are] with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, Because the LORD has heard your affliction.
[Exo 3:2
2 And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush [was] not consumed.
[Num 22:23, 26-27, 31-32
23 Now the donkey saw the Angel of the LORD standing in the way with His drawn sword in His hand, and the donkey turned aside out of the way and went into the field. So Balaam struck the donkey to turn her back onto the road. ...
26 Then the Angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place where there [was] no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.
27 And when the donkey saw the Angel of the LORD, she lay down under Balaam; so Balaam's anger was aroused, and he struck the donkey with his staff. ...
31 Then the LORD opened Balaam's eyes, and he saw the Angel of the LORD standing in the way with His drawn sword in His hand; and he bowed his head and fell flat on his face.
32 And the Angel of the LORD said to him, "Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out to stand against you, because [your] way is perverse before Me.
[Jdg 2:4
4 So it was, when the Angel of the LORD spoke these words to all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voices and wept.
[Jdg 6:21
21 Then the Angel of the LORD put out the end of the staff that [was] in His hand, and touched the meat and the unleavened bread; and fire rose out of the rock and consumed the meat and the unleavened bread. And the Angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.
[Jdg 13:16-17
16 And the Angel of the LORD said to Manoah, "Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the LORD." (For Manoah did not know He [was] the Angel of the LORD.)
17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, "What [is] Your name, that when Your words come [to pass] we may honor You?"
[Isa 37:36
36 Then the angel of the LORD went out, and killed in the camp of the Assyrians one hundred and eighty-five thousand; and when [people] arose early in the morning, there were the corpses--all dead.
[Zec 1:11
11 So they answered the Angel of the LORD, who stood among the myrtle trees, and said, "We have walked to and fro throughout the earth, and behold, all the earth is resting quietly."

xxx Satan is the wrath of God.Satan was created in the image of the wrath of God. The "Angel of the LORD" is a term used to say that God the Father sent a certain Angel. Some times even satan was an angel of God.Read Job. see the relationship between satan and God.

Too convoluted for me, a sensible son of God.

 

[LABrown]

Too convoluted for me, a sensible son of God.

Well let me go look up convoluted and see what it means. And I'll get back with you.lol

 

[JLB]

There must be some regional inflection there that deprives me of understanding your point,
How about rephrasing it, because it sounds like you believe some angel is the Son of God.

The Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament is a reference to Jesus,
The Son of God.

The Angel of the Lord is also referred to as God in many places in Old Testament scripture.

Angels are also called “sons of God”.

The Angel of the Lord, would then be The Son of God.

As we see from scripture, there is a progression of understanding concerning the Angel of the Lord;

• He is the Angel of the Lord
• The Lord
• God

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

• And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
• Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look,
• God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”

The Angel of the Lord is God; the Son of God.



JLB

 

[electedbyHim]

Angel of the Lord. (Heb. mal’ak yehwah). Supernatural being who bears a message on behalf of God. In many passages in the Old Testament, the angel of the Lord is identified with God, while in other instances a distinction is made between the Lord and the angel. In general, however, the terms “the angel of the Lord,” “the Lord,” and “God” are interchangeable.

The angel of the Lord is the messenger of both good and evil. He comes to Hagar after she has fled from the abusive Sarai (Gen. 16:7–14) to assure her that God has heard about her misery and that her descendants will be too numerous to count. She names him “You are the God who sees me” (v. 13). The angel of the Lord pronounces a curse on the people of Meroz, because they refused to come to the help of the Lord (Judg. 5:23).

The angel of the Lord executes judgment on behalf of the Lord. He puts to death 185,000 Assyrian soldiers in their camp, thereby saving Jerusalem from decimation (2 Kings 19:35).

The angel of the Lord both commissions and commends God’s servants. The commander of the Lord’s army commissions Joshua to undertake the Lord’s battles for Canaan, just as Moses had been commissioned to confront Pharaoh (Josh. 5:13–15; cf. Exod. 3:5). The angel of the Lord appears to Abraham. He stops Abraham from sacrificing Isaac and commends him because he has not withheld his only son from God (Gen. 22:11–18). Abraham identifies the angel as God, calling the place “The Lord Will Provide.”

The angel of the Lord carries out a ministry of reconciliation. He asks how long God will withhold mercy from Jerusalem and Judah (Zech. 1:12).

The connection between the angel of the Lord and the preincarnate appearance of the Messiah cannot be denied. Manoah meets the angel of the Lord, and declares that he has seen God. The angel accepts worship from Manoah and his wife as no mere angel, and refers to himself as “Wonderful,” the same term applied to the coming deliverer in Isaiah 9:6 (Judg. 13:9–22). The functions of the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament prefigure the reconciling ministry of Jesus. In the New Testament, there is no mention of the angel of the Lord; the Messiah himself is this person.

[1]



Theophany. Manifestation of God that is tangible to the human senses. In its most restrictive sense, it is a visible appearance of God in the Old Testament period often, but not always, in human form. Some would also include in this term Christophanies (preincarnate appearances of Christ) and angelophanies (appearances of angels). In the latter category are found the appearances of the angel of the Lord, which some have taken to be Christophanies, reasoning that since the angel of the Lord speaks for God in the first person (Gen. 16:10) and the human addressed often attributes the experience to God directly (Gen. 16:13), the angel must therefore be the Lord or the preincarnate Christ. Yet, though the angel is clearly identified with the Lord, he is distinguished from him (he is called “angel,” meaning “messenger”; similar patterns of identification and distinction can be seen in Genesis 19:1, 21; 31:11, 13; Exod. 3:2, 4; Judg. 2:1–5; 6:11–12, 14; 13:3, 6, 8–11, 13, 15–17, 20–23; Zech. 3:1–6; 12:8). In the ancient oriental world, a king’s messenger spoke in the name of the king. Any insult rendered him was interpreted as an insult to the king himself (cf. Hanun’s treatment of David’s embassy, 2 Sam. 10:1–4; 1 Chron. 19:2–6). There seems, therefore, no necessity to posit a theophany for the angel of the Lord. In Joshua 5:13–6:5, the conquest narrative is interrupted by the abrupt appearance of a being who calls himself the “commander of the army of the Lord” (5:14). To interpret this event as an encounter with God or with the preincarnate Christ forces the text. Angels were sent on missions of this kind (Judg. 6:11; 13:3), and some were identified as captains over heavenly armies (Dan. 10:5, 20; 12:1). While there are no indisputable Christophanies in the Old Testament, every theophany wherein God takes on human form foreshadows the incarnation, both in matters of grace and judgment.

Following are a number of what may be considered classic theophanies. The Lord appears to Abraham on his arrival in the land, wherein God promised the land to Abraham and his descendants (Gen. 12:7–9); God reaffirmed his promises of land and progeny when Abraham was ninety-nine years old (Gen. 17:1), and on the Plains of Mamre on his way to destroy Sodom (Gen. 18:1).

God appeared to Jacob in his dream at Bethel (Gen. 28:11–19). It is also clear that in the events at the Jabbok ford, Jacob somehow received a revelation through an encounter with God, although neither a strict reading of the text (Gen. 32:22–32) nor its later interpretation by Hosea (12:3–4) demand a theophany.

God appeared to Moses alone on the mountain (Exod. 19:20; 33:18–34:8). God also appeared to Moses, with Aaron and his sons and the seventy elders (Exod. 24:9–11) and in the transfer of leadership to Joshua (Deut. 31:15).

While he suffered, Job had complained that he sought an audience with God (31:35). At the conclusion of the book the Lord appears in a thunderstorm to deliver two discourses, designed to grant Job’s request for a hearing and arguably to supply at least one of the meanings for Job’s affliction: God is sovereign.

In a looser sense, God’s promise of the land to Abraham (Gen. 15), as well as his commission that Abraham sacrifice Isaac (Gen. 22), could be considered theophanies. Frequently the term, “glory of the Lord,” reflects a theophany, as in Exodus 24:16–18; the “pillar of cloud” has a similar function in Exodus 33:9. The Spirit of God or the Spirit of the Lord must be considered theophanous, particularly when it comes upon men, transforming them (1 Sam. 10:6) and equipping them for divine service (1 Sam. 16:13). The Lord appears to people in visions (Gen. 15:1; 46:2; Job 33:15; Ps. 89:19; Dan. 2:19; Acts 9:10; 18:9) and in dreams (Gen. 20:3; 31:24; 1 Kings 3:5; Matt. 2:13) to reveal his plans for them or to unveil mysteries for the future.

The Lord appears in theophanies both to bless and to judge. A frequent introduction for theophanies may be seen in the words, “The Lord came down.” Examples may be found in Genesis 11:5, Exodus 34:5, Number 11:25, and Numbers 12:5. Although the most common verb for the manifestation of the glory of the Lord is “appeared” (Lev. 9:23; Num. 14:10; 16:19, 42; 20:6), God’s glory also “settled” on Mount Sinai (Exod. 24:16).

[2]

---

[1]Elwell, W. A., & Elwell, W. A. (1997, c1996). Evangelical dictionary of biblical theology (electronic ed.). Baker reference library; Logos Library System. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House.
[2]Elwell, W. A., & Elwell, W. A. (1997, c1996). Evangelical dictionary of biblical theology (electronic ed.). Baker reference library; Logos Library System. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House.

 

[LABrown]

Keep Not The Old Testament

John 15-24
Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "[You must] be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no [such] commandment--
Act 6-13
They also set up false witnesses who said, "This man does not cease to speak blasphemous words against this holy place and the law;
Acts 13-38
"Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins;
"and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Acts 15-4
And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them.
But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses."
Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.
And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up [and] said to them: "Men [and] brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
"So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as [He did] to us,
"and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
John 1-45
Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."
And Nathanael said to him, "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" Philip said to him, "Come and see."
Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!"
Heb 10-26
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on [the testimony of] two or three witnesses.
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Gal 5-1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
You have become estranged from Christ, you who [attempt to] be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
2John 1-7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ [as] coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but [that] we may receive a full reward.
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

xxx You will fall from grace. Do not keep anything contrary to the Jesus and the New Testamen. Jesus changed the law and the covenant. Die to the Torah, the whole old testament.

[Heb 8:13 13 In that He says, "A new [covenant]," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

xxx I dont keep the old testament as you do. So I'll just let you live in your delusion.

 

[electedbyHim]

So why do you quote from OT? If you only hold to the NT you should only quote from the NT.

The title of your thread should have been "I am delusional about Christ not being God".

 

[LABrown]

Why do you speak blasphemy against Christ Jesus? Jesus said
Jesus said He wasnt God. Here. Jesus said the Father is the only God.


John 17-1
Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
"as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

John 20-17
Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and [to] My God and your God.' "

 

[Cooper]

The Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament is a reference to Jesus,
The Son of God.

The Angel of the Lord is also referred to as God in many places in Old Testament scripture.

Angels are also called “sons of God”.

The Angel of the Lord, would then be The Son of God.

As we see from scripture, there is a progression of understanding concerning the Angel of the Lord;

• He is the Angel of the Lord
• The Lord
• God

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

• And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
• Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look,
• God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”

The Angel of the Lord is God; the Son of God.



JLB

 

[Cooper]

Found the above in my notes.
.

 

[LABrown]

Why do you speak blasphemy against Christ Jesus? Jesus said
Jesus said He wasnt God. Here. Jesus said the Father is the only God.


John 17-1
Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
"as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

John 20-17
Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and [to] My God and your God.' "

Jesus is denying being God, by claiming who God really is. The Father is the only true God.