Bible Study The "I AM" Delusion

[LABrown]

Why did you capitalize the "w" in "word"?
Written word is just that, words written by man.
The Word on the other hand was with God since forever, and was God. (John 1:1)

Did you forget when Moses went up on the mountain. The finger of God wrote the ten commandments, not man.

 

[Hopeful]

You miss my point. I am not saying Jesus is an angel.
Im saying the Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament was Jesus before He became flesh.

Those two statements counter each other.
Jesus was the Word before taking on flesh, so if anything, your angel was the Word.
And I don't believe that either.

The Angel of the Lord is a reference to God.
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

Your capitalization of the word "angel" reminds me of Col 2:18-19..."Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God."

The Angel of the Lord is another way of saying…
The Son of God.
The Word of God.
The Spirit of the Lord.
I explained this in my post.

No, it isn't.
All the angels are "the Lord's".

 

[Hopeful]

Jesus had to learn obedience to the Word by His suffering. The Word never has to learn the Word.
[Heb 5:5-8... "So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but [it was] He who said to Him: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You." As [He] also says in another [place]: "You [are] a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek"; who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, though He was a Son, [yet] He learned obedience by the things which He suffered."

The scripture you posted makes your preliminary observation false.
"Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered;"
There is no mention of His former persona, "the Word", in the verses you cited.

 

[Hopeful]

Did you forget when Moses went up on the mountain. The finger of God wrote the ten commandments, not man.

Are you one who idolizes printed words?
God did write the ten commandments, words.
The "Word" on the other hand, was with God since forever, and was God. (John 1:1)
The Word took on flesh and became a man.
Then, He was Jesus.

 

[Cooper]

Since God is Spirit, then presumably the pre-incarnate Jesus, the Word, was Spirit, and the Spirit was manifest in the flesh.

So why can't the pre-incarnate Jesus, the creator, manifest himself in whatever way is appropriate for any given situation?

I am only asking for people's opinions that's all, thanks, folks.
.

 

[LABrown]

The scripture you posted makes your preliminary observation false.
"Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered;"
There is no mention of His former persona, "the Word", in the verses you cited.

lol Your really struggling to find fault where there is none. If Jesus was the Word God wouldnt of had to command Jesus on what to say. Jesus would already know.

[Jhn 12:48-50
"He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. "For I have not spoken on My own [authority]; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. "And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

 

[LABrown]

Are you one who idolizes printed words?
God did write the ten commandments, words.
The "Word" on the other hand, was with God since forever, and was God. (John 1:1)
The Word took on flesh and became a man.
Then, He was Jesus.

Again if Jesus was the Word He wouldnt have needed God to tell Him what to say. But like Jesus said God the Father had to command Jesus on what to say.

[Jhn 12:48-50
"He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. "For I have not spoken on My own [authority]; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. "And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

 

[LABrown]

Since God is Spirit, then presumably the pre-incarnate Jesus, the Word, was Spirit, and the Spirit was manifest in the flesh.

So why can't the pre-incarnate Jesus, the creator, manifest himself in whatever way is appropriate for any given situation?

I am only asking for people's opinions that's all, thanks, folks.
.

1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory.
(NKJ)
God was manifested(made known to us by Jesus) that God was in Christ. Justified in the Spirit because God is Spirit. Seen by angels because angels can see Him we cant. Preached among the Gentiles by Jesus and the apostles. Believed on in the world because of all the evidence. Received up in glory because He kept Jesus from sinning.

Answer
You should read these verses very carefully.
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the "Son of God" God abides in him. The Spirit gave me all these verses to help you understand the verse you posted.
I Jn 4:9-15
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
(NKJ)
2 Cor 5:18-19
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(NKJ)
John 17:5-7
5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7 "Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.
(NKJ)

John 14:10-11
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
(NKJ)

Mark 15:34
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
(NKJ)

 

[Hopeful]

Since God is Spirit, then presumably the pre-incarnate Jesus, the Word, was Spirit, and the Spirit was manifest in the flesh.

Not necessarily.
As we were made in "Our image", (Gen 1:26), one of them must have had a bodily form.

So why can't the pre-incarnate Jesus, the creator, manifest himself in whatever way is appropriate for any given situation?
I am only asking for people's opinions that's all, thanks, folks..

I agree.
The "man" Jacob wrestled with was probably the Word in a man's form. (Gen 32:24...)

 

[Hopeful]

lol Your really struggling to find fault where there is none. If Jesus was the Word God wouldnt of had to command Jesus on what to say. Jesus would already know.

I am not struggling at all.
Do you know that the Word became Jesus?
That the Word was a being in His own right, before He took on flesh and was born of a woman?
The Word, while in the flesh didn't have all the attributes He had before He took on the flesh.
The Word was a being, but the word is printed on paper.

[Jhn 12:48-50
"He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. "For I have not spoken on My own [authority]; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. "And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

 

[Hopeful]

Again if Jesus was the Word He wouldnt have needed God to tell Him what to say. But like Jesus said God the Father had to command Jesus on what to say.

[Jhn 12:48-50
"He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. "For I have not spoken on My own [authority]; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. "And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

Answered above.

 

[LABrown]

I am not struggling at all.
Do you know that the Word became Jesus?
That the Word was a being in His own right, before He took on flesh and was born of a woman?
The Word, while in the flesh didn't have all the attributes He had before He took on the flesh.
The Word was a being, but the word is printed on paper.

So you believe Jesus lied here.



[Jhn 12:48-50
"He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. "For I have not spoken on My own [authority]; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. "And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

 

[LABrown]

Answered above.

Refuted above.

 

[Cooper]

1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory.
(NKJ)
God was manifested(made known to us by Jesus) that God was in Christ. Justified in the Spirit because God is Spirit. Seen by angels because angels can see Him we cant. Preached among the Gentiles by Jesus and the apostles. Believed on in the world because of all the evidence. Received up in glory because He kept Jesus from sinning.

Answer
You should read these verses very carefully.
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the "Son of God" God abides in him. The Spirit gave me all these verses to help you understand the verse you posted.
I Jn 4:9-15
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
(NKJ)
2 Cor 5:18-19
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(NKJ)
John 17:5-7
5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7 "Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.
(NKJ)

John 14:10-11
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
(NKJ)

Mark 15:34
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
(NKJ)

Jesus was God in the Spirit and man in the flesh. Sometimes he spoke as God, and sometimes he spoke as a man. This dual nature confuses a lot of people.
.

 

[LABrown]

1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory.
(NKJ)
God was manifested(made known to us by Jesus) that God was in Christ. Justified in the Spirit because God is Spirit. Seen by angels because angels can see Him we cant. Preached among the Gentiles by Jesus and the apostles. Believed on in the world because of all the evidence. Received up in glory because He kept Jesus from sinning.

Answer
You should read these verses very carefully.
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the "Son of God" God abides in him. The Spirit gave me all these verses to help you understand the verse you posted.
I Jn 4:9-15
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
(NKJ)
2 Cor 5:18-19
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(NKJ)
John 17:5-7
5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7 "Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.
(NKJ)

John 14:10-11
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
(NKJ)

Mark 15:34
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
(NKJ)

 

[Cooper]

Not necessarily.
As we were made in "Our image", (Gen 1:26), one of them must have had a bodily form.

I agree.
The "man" Jacob wrestled with was probably the Word in a man's form. (Gen 32:24...)

As there is one God, I cannot help wondering if the 'us' in Genesis chapter one, written long after the foundation of the earth, is a reference to God's various manifestations?
Just a thought.
.

 

[Hopeful]

So you believe Jesus lied here.

[Jhn 12:48-50
"He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. "For I have not spoken on My own [authority]; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. "And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

I believe it completely.
The Word made flesh spoke words His Father gave Him.

 

[Hopeful]

Refuted above.

What exactly did you refute?

 

[LABrown]

As there is one God, I cannot help wondering if the 'us' in Genesis chapter one, written long after the foundation of the earth, is a reference to God's various manifestations?
Just a thought.
.

God didnt do the US
[Gen 1:26-27 KJV] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 

[Cooper]

God didnt do the US
[Gen 1:26-27 KJV] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The One God is omnipresent in heaven, on earth and in our hearts. For that to happen on earth, God needs to take on the image of man, and although He can manifest himself in other ways, he needs to be man to take our sins, the sins of mankind, upon himself. Otherwise, there would not be a Saviour of mankind. It is God the Holy Spirit who dwells in our hearts, and the terms Father and Son when applied to the omnipresent God emphasizes the universal oneness of God.

God IS the US, as the Trinitarian diagram shows.
.