Bible Study The "I AM" Delusion

[Hopeful]

The Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament is a reference to Jesus,
The Son of God.

The Angel of the Lord is also referred to as God in many places in Old Testament scripture.

Angels are also called “sons of God”.

The Angel of the Lord, would then be The Son of God.

As we see from scripture, there is a progression of understanding concerning the Angel of the Lord;

• He is the Angel of the Lord
• The Lord
• God

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

• And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
• Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look,
• God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”

The Angel of the Lord is God; the Son of God.

I don't agree.
It is written..."Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" (Heb1:3-5)
Jesus was/is better that any angel.
Jesus was the Word. (John 1:1)

 

[Cooper]

I don't agree.
It is written..."Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" (Heb1:3-5)
Jesus was/is better that any angel.
Jesus was the Word. (John 1:1)

Did not Jesus the Word, take on the image of man?
.

 

[LABrown]

Jesus didnt even have the Word until God gave it to Him. Jesus did submit to the Word because Jesus knew it was from God. Jesus even had to learn obedience to the Word by the things which He suffered. Jesus cant be the Word when Jesus had to get the Word from God. The Word has always been an "IT" all throught history until the KJV bible. They just happened to bump up the authority of the Word by calling it a "HE" in the book of John 1. God is a HE Jesus is a HE the Holy Spirit is a He.

[Jhn 12:48-49
[48] "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
[49] "For I have not spoken on My own [authority]; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
[Heb 4:14-15
[14] Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] confession.
[15] For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all [points] tempted as [we are, yet] without sin.
[Heb 5:6-9
[6] As [He] also says in another [place]: "You [are] a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek";
[7] who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,
[8] though He was a Son, [yet] He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
[9] And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

 

[electedbyhim]

Pre-Existence and Eternality of Christ

The eternality and deity of Christ are inseparably linked together. Those who deny His eternality also deny His deity. If the deity of Christ is established, there is no problem in accepting His eternality.

DIRECT PROOF

New Testament.

There are numerous passages in the New Testament which explicitly affirm the eternality of Jesus Christ.

(1) John 1:1. The word “was” in the phrase, “In the beginning was the Word,” is the Greek hen, the imperfect tense that stresses continual existence in past time. The phrase could thus be translated, “In the beginning the Word was continually existing.” John’s beginning probably goes back to the origin of the universe; John indicates that however far back one goes, the Word was continuously existing.

(2) John 8:58. Although Abraham lived two thousand years before Christ, He could say, “before Abraham was born, I am.” Although Jesus was born in Bethlehem, He claimed to have existed before Abraham. The tense is again important to notice. Before Abraham was born, Christ was continuously existing. The statement “I am,” of course, is also a reference to His deity and a claim of equality with Yahweh. “I am” is a reference to Exodus 3:14, in which God identifies Himself as “I AM WHO I AM.”

(3) Hebrews 1:8. In verse 8 the writer of Hebrews begins a series of Old Testament quotations. The preface to those statements is, “But of the Son He says,” hence, the statements that follow refer to Christ. Therefore, the statement, “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever,” is a reference to the eternality of Christ.

(4) Colossians 1:17. Paul states, “He is before all things,” stressing once more eternality and pre-existence of Christ through the use of the present tense.


Old Testament.

(1) Micah 5:2. This statement emphasizes that “His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.” Although Jesus was born in Bethlehem (prophesied in this verse), that was not His beginning; He has existed “from the days of eternity.”


(2) Isaiah 9:6. Christ is called the “Eternal Father.” This does not mean Christ is the Father, because they are two distinct Persons within the Trinity. It does mean that Christ also possesses the title of Father. The designation suggests both His pre-existence and eternality.



Indirect proof. (1) Christ’s heavenly origin proves His eternal existence. John 3:13 stresses that Christ “descended from heaven.” If Christ came down from heaven then Bethlehem cannot have been His beginning. This verse indicates He dwelt in heaven before coming to earth, therefore, He is eternal (cf. John 6:38).

(2) Christ’s preincarnate work proves His eternal existence. John 1:3 says that Christ created all things (“all” is emphatic). If He created all things then He must be eternal (cf. 1 Cor. 8:6).

(3) Christ’s titles prove His eternal existence. (a) Yahweh. In John 12:41 the apostle says that Isaiah saw “His glory,” a reference to Christ in the context. John, however, quoted from Isaiah 6:10 where He is clearly referring to Yahweh (cf. Isa. 6:3, 5). John thus equates Jesus with Yahweh, the Lord of the Old Testament; because Yahweh is eternal then Jesus is eternal. (b) Adonai. In Matthew 22:44 Christ quotes Psalm 110:1, “The Lord said to My Lord,” and applies it to Himself. The term “Lord” is Adonai, one of the Old Testament names of God. If Christ is designated Adonai, then He is eternal, for God is eternal.

(4) The theophanies prove His eternal existence. A theophany may be defined thus: “It is the Second Person of the Trinity who appears thus in human form.…The One of the three who is called LORD, or Jahweh, in the incident recorded in Genesis 18, is to be taken to be the Second Person of the Trinity.”3 The identification of Christ with the appearances of the angel of the Lord (the theophany) can be demonstrated in the following manner. The angel of the Lord is recognized as deity. He is referred to as God (Judg. 6:11, 14; note in verse 11 He is called “angel of the Lord,” while in v. 14 He is called “Lord” ). The angel of the Lord in other instances is distinct from Yahweh because He talks to Yahweh (Zech. 1:11; 3:1–2; cf. Gen. 24:7). The angel of the Lord could not have been the Spirit or the Father, because neither the Spirit nor the Father are ever revealed in physical form (cf. John 1:18). The angel of the Lord no longer appears after the incarnation of Christ. There is no mention of the angel of the Lord in the New Testament; He ceases to appear after the birth of Christ.

 

[LABrown]

The word was the word, Jesus was Jesus. Two different subjects.

 

[electedbyhim]

The word was the word, Jesus was Jesus. Two different subjects.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1​

In the beginning. In contrast to 1Jn_1:1 where John used a similar phrase ("from the beginning") to refer to the starting point of Jesus' ministry and gospel preaching, this phrase parallels Gen_1:1 where the same phrase is used in an absolute sense to refer to the beginning of the time-space-material universe.

was. The verb highlights the eternal preexistence of the Word(i.e., Jesus Christ). Before the universe began, the second person of the Trinity always existed, i.e., He always was (cf. Joh_8:58). This word is used in contrast with the verb "was made" (or "were made") in verse Joh_1:3 which indicates a beginning in time. Because of John's theme that Jesus Christ is the eternal God, the second person of the Trinity, he did not include a genealogy as Matthew and Luke did. While in terms of Jesus' humanity, He had a human genealogy; in terms of His deity, He has no genealogy.

the Word. John borrowed the use of the term Word not only from the vocabulary of the OT but also from Greek philosophy, in which the term was essentially impersonal, signifying the rational principle of "divine reason," "mind," or even "wisdom." John, however, imbued the term entirely with OT and Christian meaning (e.g., Gen_1:3 where God's Word brought the world into being; Psa_33:6; Psa_107:20; Pro_8:27 where God's Word is His powerful self-expression in creation, wisdom, revelation, and salvation) and made it refer to a person (i.e., Jesus Christ). Greek philosophical usage, therefore, is not the exclusive background of John's thought. Strategically, the term "Word" serves as a bridge-word to reach not only Jews but also the unsaved Greeks. John chose this concept because both Jews and Greeks were familiar with it.

the Word was with God. The Word, as the second person of the Trinity, was in intimate fellowship with God the Father throughout all eternity. Yet, although the Word enjoyed the splendors of heaven and eternity with the Father (Isa_6:1-13; cf. Joh_12:41; Joh_17:5), He willingly gave up His heavenly status, taking the form of a man, and became subject to the death of the cross (see notes on Php_2:6-8).

was God. The Greek construction emphasizes that the Word had all the essence or attributes of deity, i.e., Jesus the Messiah was fully God (cf. Col_2:9). Even in His incarnation when He emptied Himself, He did not cease to be God but took on a genuine human nature/body and voluntarily refrained from the independent exercise of the attributes of deity.

I am pretty certain you will say that is wrong as well.

 

[LABrown]

DEITY DO YOU KNOW WHAT IT MEANS?
their are so many that throw around that word deity, I havent met any that can truly define it. But they hold on to it. The definition of deity, is divinity, the definition of divinity is that Jesus is inferior to the supreme God but superior to man.

deity 1 a: often cap : divine nature or rank: the essintial nature of a god or of a supreme being: DIVINITY

di-vin-i-ty 1:the quality or state of being divine: nature or essence of God: GODHEAD (the divinity of Jesus) a celestial being inferior to the supreme God but superior to man<one of the subservient divinities>

xxx This is the deffinition of deity and divinity, Jesus is separate from God.


Acts 17:24-29
24 "God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.
25 "Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.
29 "Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising.
(NKJ)
Now Jesus had the Divine Nature of God, but He wasnt God.
We want that same divine nature, but that won't make us God either. We are suppose to be Christ like as Christians. Christ humbled Himself to God and we should do the same. To claim Jesus is God is to deny One of the two Spirits we submit to. And the only Way to the Father is threw the right Son.


Matt 10:33
33 "But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
(NKJ)

Nobody can know God, unless the real Jesus reveals Him. If you dont know Jesus you cant know God.


Matt 11:27-30
27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
28 "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
(NKJ)

John 14:28
28 "You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
(NKJ)

 

[electedbyhim]

What you believe and what has been taught for centuries by Scripture as well as, established Biblical scholars and Theologians holds no credibility.

But you can believe and teach anything you want and lead astray those who do not know any better and believe such nonsense.

 

[LABrown]

What you believe and what has been taught for centuries by Scripture as well as, established Biblical scholars and Theologians holds no credibility.

But you can believe and teach anything you want and lead astray those who do not know any better and believe such nonsense.

That the difference between you and me. I worship God through Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and His written Word. You worship theologians.

 

[electedbyhim]

I worship God the Lord Jesus Christ and I learn from His humble servants whom He has chosen to preach and teach His written word.

If I only came from my own understanding and thought Holy Spirit was leading me, I would end up believing like you do. You teach doctrines of demons and many members here have tried correcting you.

I will pray for you moving forward.

 

[LABrown]

I worship God the Lord Jesus Christ and I learn from His humble servants whom He has chosen to preach and teach His written word.

If I only came from my own understanding and thought Holy Spirit was leading me, I would end up believing like you do. You teach doctrines of demons and many members here have tried correcting you.

I will pray for you moving forward.

Thank you I like it when anyone prays for me.

 

[Hopeful]

Did not Jesus the Word, take on the image of man?
.

Yes, He did.
It is written..."And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)
Thanks be to God.

 

[Cooper]

Yes, He did.
It is written..."And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)
Thanks be to God.

Amen. You know what, the longer I live, the more I believe in the omnipresence of God. You know what it says, even the hairs of our head are numbered, and the Holy Spirit moves among us like the wind, but I'm not taking it only from Scripture, but from keeping my mind open to the promptings of the Holy Spirit. It is a heart and mind thing rather than a physical thing. Anyway, it is not something I talk about. It just came into my head to say it. I don't know why. Sorry for blabbing on.

 

[LABrown]

1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory.
(NKJ)
God was manifested(made known to us by Jesus) that God was in Christ. Justified in the Spirit because God is Spirit. Seen by angels because angels can see Him we cant. Preached among the Gentiles by Jesus and the apostles. Believed on in the world because of all the evidence. Received up in glory because He kept Jesus from sinning.

Answer
You should read these verses very carefully.
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the "Son of God" God abides in him. The Spirit gave me all these verses to help you understand the verse you posted.
I Jn 4:9-15
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
(NKJ)
2 Cor 5:18-19
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(NKJ)
John 17:5-7
5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7 "Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.
(NKJ)

John 14:10-11
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
(NKJ)

Mark 15:34
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
(NKJ)

 

[JLB]

It is written..."Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" (Heb1:3-5)
Jesus was/is better that any angel.

You miss my point. I am not saying Jesus is an angel.

Im saying the Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament was Jesus before He became flesh.

The Angel of the Lord is a reference to God.

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6




The Angel of the Lord is another way of saying…

The Son of God.
The Word of God.
The Spirit of the Lord.

I explained this in my post.



JLB

 

[LABrown]

Begotten Son-Jesus
[Act 13:33
33 "God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.'
[Heb 1:5
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"?
[Heb 5:5
5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but [it was] He who said to Him: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You."
[Heb 11:17
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],
[1Jo 4:9
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.

xxx First time. first time on earth. Begotten is first time.

 

[Hopeful]

The word was the word, Jesus was Jesus. Two different subjects.

The Word took on flesh to become Jesus.

 

[Hopeful]

That the difference between you and me. I worship God through Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and His written Word. You worship theologians.

Why did you capitalize the "w" in "word"?
Written word is just that, words written by man.
The Word on the other hand was with God since forever, and was God. (John 1:1)

 

[Hopeful]

Amen. You know what, the longer I live, the more I believe in the omnipresence of God. You know what it says, even the hairs of our head are numbered, and the Holy Spirit moves among us like the wind, but I'm not taking it only from Scripture, but from keeping my mind open to the promptings of the Holy Spirit. It is a heart and mind thing rather than a physical thing. Anyway, it is not something I talk about. It just came into my head to say it. I don't know why. Sorry for blabbing on.

"Blab" is one of my favorite things !!!
Preach it bro.

 

[LABrown]

The Word took on flesh to become Jesus.

Jesus had to learn obedience to the Word by His suffering. The Word never has to learn the Word.
[Heb 5:5-8
So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but [it was] He who said to Him: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You." As [He] also says in another [place]: "You [are] a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek"; who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, though He was a Son, [yet] He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.