The Ideal Church

[farouk]

... I don't think a heavy metal band would go over well in a local church worship service. Unless maybe the audience was full of people who liked it and it held no hindrance to them, but that wouldn't happen in a general church setting. ..

If the whole congregation was into heavy metal, then it would likely not be a cross section of Christians.

You would like it, of course. But not the whole congregation.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

I don't want to pull this thread too off topic since the main topic is churches, but it occurred to me in church this morning that the Psalms talk about worshiping God with musical instruments.

Agreed, and sing and dance. And....
Psa_66:1 To the chief Musician, A Song or Psalm. Make a joyful noise unto God, all ye lands:
Psa_81:1 To the chief Musician upon Gittith, A Psalm of Asaph. Sing aloud unto God our strength: make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob.
Psa_95:1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.
Psa_95:2 Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise unto him with psalms.
Psa_98:4 Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise.
Psa_98:6 With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King.
Psa_100:1 A Psalm of praise. Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all ye lands.

I've always wanted to attend a southern black church, where they just belt out the glory of our Lord.
I did attend a Messianic service where there was the traditional dancing with the scarves/flags, I can't remember right now what they are called. There was a band but there were some with tambourines, too.
There was also very soft worship songs after making the loud noise. It was a lovely service.

 

[farouk]

Messianic? see, I think the Jewish context is coming through there.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Psalm 150?

Some would say that the immediate context was Israel. (Depending on one's dispensational outlook.)

For the worship at the temple, to my understanding. So yes it was referring to Israel, but I don't think it could be argued in this case that it has to apply only to Israel.

 

[farouk]

For the worship at the temple, to my understanding. So yes it was referring to Israel, but I don't think it could be argued in this case that it has to apply only to Israel.

Context is signficant in Scripture, anyway. There are arguments around which use what happened for Israel as being for the church now; some even claim that the church is an extension of Israel. (I'm not talking just about musical instruments now.) This even potentially nullifies the Epistle to the Hebrews which points out all that is better with the essence and fulfulment in Christ, as opposed to the types and shadows under the old economy.

It's not really just about musical intruments, but rather there is the whole question of how to interpret the Bible.

(I don't have a problem with an organ or piano, but I wouldn't particularly use passages which speak of practices in Israel.)

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Context is signficant in Scripture, anyway. There are arguments around which use what happened for Israel as being for the church now; some even claim that the church is an extension of Israel. (I'm not talking just about musical instruments now.) This even potentially nullifies the Epistle to the Hebrews which points out all that is better with the essence and fulfulment in Christ, as opposed to the types and shadows under the old economy.

It's not really just about musical intruments, but rather there is the whole question of how to interpret the Bible.

(I don't have a problem with an organ or piano, but I wouldn't particularly use passages which speak of practices in Israel.)

Blessings.

See, on some things I do definitely think that there are OT passages that don't apply anymore and I have argued this point in some threads in the past. The OT law in general has a lot of rules that applied to the time and are outdated for this day and age. And I'm at least somewhat dispensational. (I'm not super familiar with all the dispensationalism entails, but I know enough to know that my position and doctrinal view probably seems to fall under it somewhere.)
But it seems to me in this particular context that there are verses on using music in and for worship says something, whether it's regarding the practices of ancient Israel or not.

But anyway, don't want to go too far off topic with this. It was just a thought.

 

[farouk]

See, on some things I do definitely think that there are OT passages that don't apply anymore and I have argued this point in some threads in the past. The OT law in general has a lot of rules that applied to the time and are outdated for this day and age. And I'm at least somewhat dispensational. (I'm not super familiar with all the dispensationalism entails, but I know enough to know that my position and doctrinal view probably seems to fall under it somewhere.)
But it seems to me in this particular context that there are verses on using music in and for worship says something, whether it's regarding the practices of ancient Israel or not.

But anyway, don't want to go too far off topic with this. It was just a thought.

It's a side issue, yes.

One way or the other, it doesn't exactly establish or dismantle whole bodies of doctrine, I wouldn't have thought.

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

It's a side issue, yes.

One way or the other, it doesn't exactly establish or dismantle whole bodies of doctrine, I wouldn't have thought.

Blessings.

No. I didn't mean for it to.

Although I was thinking about the idea of music being a distraction from worship (an idea I'm not unfamiliar with, with my background)...and then the verses in Psalms about it being apparently being a medium of worship came to mind. That's where that came from. I didn't really mean it as an argument, per se.
Although I'm not saying that music can't get in the way of worship--it can, as can any number of things. Music can become a idol, something more important to an individual than God.

 

[reba]

The ideal church will feed me what I want every Sunday morning.
The ideal church will have great worship music that I like.
The ideal church won't demand money from me.
The ideal church will believe what I believe.
The ideal church will tell me what a great guy I am.
The ideal church will provide a ministry for me that I want to do when I want to do it.
Yes, the ideal church will do all these things.

Isn't that what Christianity should be?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The ideal church will feed me what I want every Sunday morning.
The ideal church will have great worship music that I like.
The ideal church won't demand money from me.
The ideal church will believe what I believe.
The ideal church will tell me what a great guy I am.
The ideal church will provide a ministry for me that I want to do when I want to do it.
Yes, the ideal church will do all these things.

Isn't that what Christianity should be?

Thank you Reba.

 

[Claudya]

The ideal church will feed me what I want every Sunday morning.
The ideal church will have great worship music that I like.
The ideal church won't demand money from me.
The ideal church will believe what I believe.
The ideal church will tell me what a great guy I am.
The ideal church will provide a ministry for me that I want to do when I want to do it.
Yes, the ideal church will do all these things.

Isn't that what Christianity should be?

This thread is now about the old testament perspective of using instruments for musical worship in the temple, and the application of that in modern day christian churches. Please refrain from derailing this thread, reba. Thanks. :tongue

 

[farouk]

No. I didn't mean for it to.

Although I was thinking about the idea of music being a distraction from worship (an idea I'm not unfamiliar with, with my background)...and then the verses in Psalms about it being apparently being a medium of worship came to mind. That's where that came from. I didn't really mean it as an argument, per se.
Although I'm not saying that music can't get in the way of worship--it can, as can any number of things. Music can become a idol, something more important to an individual than God.

True worship is 'in spirit and in truth', (John 4).

I think you are absolutely right. Music can be a distraction.

Worship in spirit and in truth is thus a spiritual ideal, and not all those who go to particular 'ideal' churches for what they think they a 'getting' from them, are actually entering into the exercise of giving the Lord His rightful, preeminent due with the spirit and the understanding.

Blessings.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think you are absolutely right. Music can be a distraction.

Hey, it derailed this thread, lol.

 

[Claudya]

Hey, it derailed this thread, lol.

Oh noes, what have I done?! 2
I promise I will never mention heavy metal worship again in this forum. Ever. Or at least not in this year.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Oh noes, what have I done?! 2
I promise I will never mention heavy metal worship again in this forum. Ever. Or at least not in this year.

Hehe.

It's my fault, really. I'm a tad opinionated on the subject of music. I'm sorry. =/

 

[farouk]

Hehe.

It's my fault, really. I'm a tad opinionated on the subject of music. I'm sorry. =/

Music, and ideas about it, forms part of some people's notions of ideal churches, anyway.

Whether this should be the case, is another matter.

I tend to agree with you when you say that one way or another music in different styles are not the central part of what a local church is.

Blessings.

 

[farouk]

PS: questdriven:

If you are opinionated (you who express your ideas very thoughtfully and politely) I don't know what the word means....

Everyone has his or her own tastes in music; it's nothing to be ashamed of.

Blessings.