The identity of the antichrist in 5 verses

[reba]

lets see do i close the thread or just put some guys on read only

It is closed til i decide what a shame..

PS by Eugene. I agree Sister reba. What could have been an instructive study or discussion digresses into bashing and snarks. There's little wonder we do not have a Catholic forum.

Maybe you and i can have a good conversation Eugene we do not agree on every thing ...so should i be rude first or you ? this is how Christians talk in forums right?
The snark is now in your court :tongue

reba, maybe you're just not as old and wise as me??? This ought to really help you grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus. If you would have read everything I've said, you'd know I'm right. :nod

I am not as old as you but wisdom comes from the Lord.. Had you read the Scripture you would know that .. be blessed...

 

[reba]

This thread is now open... the topic is a good one ..

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

sigh

No, Rollo, you actually have to read a source in order to comment on the source.

You commented on the source without even looking at it and then posted your opinion of the source based on knowing absolutely nothing of the content of the source.

Now that I've called you on it, you're trying to change the subject from the source I cited to understanding some comment I made.



Well, first, you have to actually READ it.


edited reba

iakov the fool

Okay, but if I counter what you say and then say it's in a book, go read the book, what good is that?
You may not yet understand, but there are those on forums that appreciate what you say when it is you saying it.
It's okay to quote someone else, but to say "go read the Bible study" does not hold a lot of weight with many people around here.
Your answer makes me think "you don't know how to answer me" or "you can't be bothered answering me".
Either way, how can one have a relevant debate with you?

 

[smaller]

A few "scriptural" observations about the anti-Christ, and some reasonable conclusions.

First of all the anti-Christ is "a spirit" and presumably a "wicked/evil" spirit, seeing that spirit is anti-Christ.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

On the above basis alone we can definitely RULE OUT this being any particular man, the pope(s), any member of British nobility, etc etc. Why? Because it is a spirit and was already in the world when John penned those words.

This is pretty easy to see, imho. All the sensationalist wooohaaaa is utter nonsense when believers try to pin the anti-Christ donkey tail on man or institution. We are dealing with a "wicked evil spirit." That much is certain.

As to the numbers, as in one anti-Christ or many, John again addresses this issue, and states that it is not just ONE MAN.

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

I would propose in the above, that seeing these "many" anti-Christ spirits at the time John the Apostle made his observations, that these spirits are still here, and still in operation, and may very well have multiplied to even more "many." Wicked spirits DO multiply. See John 8:44 for an example of the "devil" having "children." Matt. 13 speaks to a similar example, where the "enemy" plants (and from such planting grow other TARES)

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this.

In these examinations we have to take the most obvious culprit, and that can be none else but Satan, the devil and his messengers. It is quite entirely pointless to try to see it any other way when we have the worst culprit already on the scriptural table to view.

Further, John notes that the believers he is addressing have "heard" this statement that the anti-Christ WILL come:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come,

Where did they hear this from? Again, this is quite entirely EASY to hear, if we "hear" Jesus on this matter:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Right there is HOW the anti-Christ comes. Satan "follows after" where the Word is sown, just as Jesus says happens.

John the Apostle gives us all fair warning. And we might even note it's PERSONAL to each of us:

2 John 1:8
Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

Remember what the chief thief does! Satan comes to STEAL THE WORD from our hearts.

Anyone who considers themselves immune from these attempts of Satan at "internal theft" from their own hearts is just not listening. IF you hear a little voice in your own head that says "this doesn't happen to YOU because YOU are a believer" you ARE hearing the voice of the anti-Christ in your own head.

We "all" have sin, have sinned, and our own flesh is contrary to the Spirit. You all know this well enough by now. 1 John 1:8, 1 John 3:8, Gal. 5:17 all speak to this exact matter. And yes, OUR SIN is in fact of the DEVIL. Do the math people.

So, yeah. Look to yourselves. And stop wasting your short time on earth looking for some other guy because it's not going to happen and it's not going to be that way.

 

[Eugene]

First of all the anti-Christ is "a spirit" and presumably a "wicked/evil" spirit, seeing that spirit is anti-Christ.

As you have pointed out the antichrist is a spirit sowing unbelief, but assigned many. What we hear as pertaining to the renowned antichrist of end times though he will not possess that name will be one man with powers of demonstration to convince an unbelieving world of his power, and that he is God.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

2 Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Thes 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[reba]

The word antichrist sells more books then the the words man of sin or man of perdition ... The scriptures only use the word antichrist in 4 verses..
John penned The Revelation of Jesus Christ.. ... he also penned John 1,2 & 3 .. Wonder why he didnt use the word antichrist in The Revelation of Jesus Christ.... when he was the only guy to use the term...

 

[Jim Parker]

Okay, but if I counter what you say and then say it's in a book, go read the book, what good is that?
You may not yet understand, but there are those on forums that appreciate what you say when it is you saying it.
It's okay to quote someone else, but to say "go read the Bible study" does not hold a lot of weight with many people around here.
Your answer makes me think "you don't know how to answer me" or "you can't be bothered answering me".
Either way, how can one have a relevant debate with you?

Rollo, I was asked for a reference. I provided it.

The person who asked for it (I don't remember who it was) then disparaged it without even looking at it. edited reba

Now I'm taking flack for providing a reference and you're making a big deal out of it?

Gimme a break.

iakov the fool

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Rollo, I was asked for a reference. I provided it.

The person who asked for it (I don't remember who it was) then disparaged it without even looking at it. That is NOT reasonable behavior.

Now I'm taking flack for providing a reference and you're making a big deal out of it?

Gimme a break.

iakov the fool

Okay Jimmy baby, we're set.

 

[smaller]

--antichrist -- will be one man with powers of demonstration to convince an unbelieving world of his power, and that he is God.

Already noted the futility of trying to make the anti-Christ spirit(s) A MAN.

The anti-Christ spirit(s) were already existing when John wrote what he wrote.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

2 Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Thes 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

If you are reading the above, then you should see that the "temple" is our body.

Where does that anti-Christ spirit SIT? Uh, yeah. In the temple, the holy place, the "body" of sinners.

How does the anti-Christ spirit enter? Mark 4:15.

The anti-Christ spirit isn't going to prove to any flesh men that he is the god/boss, but to prove to his other buddies in the wicked spirit world, that of demons, that he is God of the temples of flesh men.

Whom does God promise to destroy?

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Lucifer was called A MAN.

Isaiah 14:
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Satan is Lucifer, the son of perdition, the MAN of sin.

Why is Satan termed a 'man of sin?' Because he sits in the TEMPLE of MAN.

He destroys the temple of God, OUR BODY, by sin.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

1 John 3:
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Satan (and his spawn/tares/devils) has sat in the FLESH BODIES of mankind from DAY ONE.

 

[Eugene]

.

Lucifer was called A MAN.

So will the one commonly referred to as the antichrist, but he will operate under the power of Satan; not being Satan himself. What you seem to be presenting is your "dual" prophecy ideas.
2 Thes 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

[smaller]

.

So will the one commonly referred to as the antichrist, but he will operate under the power of Satan; not being Satan himself.

What I'm getting at Eugene, is that the anti-Christ is a "personal issue" for everyone. It's not going to be some bad guy at the top. Everyone is waiting around for some bad guy at the top. History is replete with bad guys at the top. And this, being a reflection of the whole of humanity. We all have "issues" with wickedness at the top, individually.

What you seem to be presenting is your "dual" prophecy ideas.

Not really sure what you mean by that or what you think is being observed in these matters.

We all should know that the scriptural narrative DOES place man and devil in the same location, that is our BODY.

It's only a pity when we don't divide this matter, scripturally, and we make humans devils, which is what everyone looking for some "bad guy at the top" the anti-Christ.

The anti-Christ is Satan and his wicked/evil spirits. And yes, these are a reality that "everyone" deals with, internally.

2 Thes 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

It's quite odd that the answer to the equation is found right there in the scripture, but the culprit is ignored in favor of some other bad guy looming in the future.

And that speaks to the spiritual blindness that is imposed from that bad actor.

So, just to make this clear, again. The anti-Christ is Satan.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

What I'm getting at Eugene, is that the anti-Christ is a "personal issue" for everyone. It's not going to be some bad guy at the top. Everyone is waiting around for some bad guy at the top. History is replete with bad guys at the top. And this, being a reflection of the whole of humanity. We all have "issues" with wickedness at the top, individually.



Not really sure what you mean by that or what you think is being observed in these matters.

We all should know that the scriptural narrative DOES place man and devil in the same location, that is our BODY.

It's only a pity when we don't divide this matter, scripturally, and we make humans devils, which is what everyone looking for some "bad guy at the top" the anti-Christ.

The anti-Christ is Satan and his wicked/evil spirits. And yes, these are a reality that "everyone" deals with, internally.


It's quite odd that the answer to the equation is found right there in the scripture, but the culprit is ignored in favor of some other bad guy looming in the future.

And that speaks to the spiritual blindness that is imposed from that bad actor.

So, just to make this clear, again. The anti-Christ is Satan.

This sounds very much like Mormon belief.
Are you a Mormon?

 

[Eugene]

I don’t personally see a man at the top claiming to be the antichrist; that is a word Christianity has adopted to describe the man of sin; that abomination of desolation claiming that he is God, but he will definitely be antichrist.

2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

I reckon we just don’t agree on what the previous verses here are saying. My thinking is that there will again be some form of a temple rebuilt where the abomination of desolation will have his image, and even Israel will be observing their daily sacrifice: Dan 9:27 And he (The man of sin) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease . . .

Thanks for your input.

 

[smaller]

This sounds very much like Mormon belief.
Are you a Mormon?

No idea where you came up with that one.

 

[smaller]

I don’t personally see a man at the top claiming to be the antichrist; that is a word Christianity has adopted to describe the man of sin; that abomination of desolation claiming that he is God, but he will definitely be antichrist.

2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

I reckon we just don’t agree on what the previous verses here are saying. My thinking is that there will again be some form of a temple rebuilt where the abomination of desolation will have his image, and even Israel will be observing their daily sacrifice: Dan 9:27 And he (The man of sin) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease . . .

Thanks for your input.

There haven't been any sacrifices or Jewish O.T. temple ritualism for a couple thousand years now.

Dead end again.

 

[Eugene]

.
smaller, does Israel have to have a temple to be offering burnt sacrifices?
Ezra 3:2 we read, "Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God." This was prior to the temple being rebuilt.

 

[smaller]

.
smaller, does Israel have to have a temple to be offering burnt sacrifices?

Of course not. The O.T. temple was purposefully destroyed by Divine Intentions. The N.T. believer should understand what the temple is in N.T. terms. And that is 'our body.' That's partly why it's quite pointless to wait around to see if spiritually blinded Jews are going to re-institute the O.T. system. Who cares? It's irrelevant to N.T. equations, because the "body" is the temple.

Ezra 3:2 we read, "Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God." This was prior to the temple being rebuilt.

We should maybe understand O.T. matters are shadow matters. They have meanings, yes. Meanings of what may be in view?

What does burning the sacrifice mean?

2 Corinthians 5:1
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

No idea where you came up with that one.

Nice try.
Can you answer the question?

 

[smaller]

Nice try.
Can you answer the question?

Maybe I could if I knew what you were thinking to start with. Perhaps you can explain the Mormon belief and show how that relates to anything I might have noted from the scriptures so I know what you're talking about.

 

[Douglas Summers]

First we see the verse that unravels the bible -

Revelation 13:18 "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

Who had wisdom and understanding?

1 Kings 3:12 "Behold, I have done according to thy words: lo, I have given thee a wise and an understanding heart; so that there was none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee."

2 Chronicles 1:11-12 "
And God said to Solomon, Because this was in thine heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, or honour, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life; but hast asked wisdom and knowledge for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king:12 Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee; and I will give thee riches, and wealth, and honour, such as none of the kings have had that have been before thee, neither shall there any after thee have the like."

Who had the number 666?

1 Kings 10:14 "Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold,"

God gives it to us again just in case we missed it and was asleep.

1 Chronicles 9:13 "Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred and threescore and six talents of gold;"



Thus the beast was a MAN (KJV), and that man was king Solomon.

1 Kings 3:12 "Behold, I have done according to thy words: lo, I have given thee a wise and an understanding heart; so that there was none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee.

According to that King Solomon will return. As the great king, the antichrist, the man of sin.

Your basing alot of Nimrod info on what? The bible says extremely little about Nimrod.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is written to a specific people. It is not written to the curious or idle. It is written to the SERVANTS of God. (Rev. 1:1) Much of what has been written that may not be clear now, will be clear while the tribulation is happening, because they will have the book during the events. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is given with three instructions to John to write down:

1. To write the things seen (visions)
2. The things that are (Churches)
3. The things that will be hereafter (after the Churches) Rev. 1:19

After the Churches, Revelation Chapter 4 starts out with: After this (the churches) I looked and behold, (a door was opened in heaven). And then He hears a voice as the sound of a trumpet saying (come up here) and I will show you things that must be hereafter (The Churches) And immediately he was in the Spirit where the throne of Christ was setting in heaven (REV. 4: 1-3).
Chapter 4 & 5 go on to describe the order of beings in heaven,and then the tribulation and events that will happen after the Churches. Compare (1 Cor. 15: 51-52) with (Rev. 4: 1-3) . This is the RAPTURE that no one believes in. (Rev. 3: 10) God makes this promise to the faithful and Spirit filled Church. It is after the Church is Raptured that The Tribulation begins.

Where do we get the word Rapture? It is the English translation of the Latin word (rapturas) Which means a departure as on a journey. The Latin "rapturas" is the exact translation of the Greek "apostasia" used in 2 Thess. 2: 3. Our very word "rapture" comes from the Latin Vulgate Version of the Holy Bible. In (Revelation 21: 7-8) God tells of those who will be and not be in the Kingdom. Notice in verse 8 He mentions , "the unbelieving and liars". The Liars here is not those little fibs we all often use to avoid ill will, but liars here are those who lie about the word of God, of which I'am not.

In Christ
Douglas Summers