The identity of the antichrist in 5 verses

[Marilyn C]

Hi n2thelight,

The context in Rev. 9 tells us that these creatures are demons because they have come out of the bottomless pit. They are symbolically like locusts in that they swarm. How they inflict pain in people is like a scorpion`s sting. They are not locusts or scorpions. Also their King is the angel of the bottomless pit. `And their power was to hurt men for five months.` (Rev. 9: 10)

These people being hurt are not believers but unbelievers -`They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing or a tree, but only those men who DO NOT have the seal of God on their foreheads.` (Rev. 9: 4)

You need to read a bit more carefully as the context shows all the details.

Marilyn.

 

[n2thelight]

Hi n2thelight,

The context in Rev. 9 tells us that these creatures are demons because they have come out of the bottomless pit. They are symbolically like locusts in that they swarm. How they inflict pain in people is like a scorpion`s sting. They are not locusts or scorpions. Also their King is the angel of the bottomless pit. `And their power was to hurt men for five months.` (Rev. 9: 10)

These people being hurt are not believers but unbelievers -`They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing or a tree, but only those men who DO NOT have the seal of God on their foreheads.` (Rev. 9: 4)

You need to read a bit more carefully as the context shows all the details.

Marilyn.

I know what they are,yet they shall appear as angels of light,would you care to explain to me how they pull this off torturing people? It's all in the mind,ie the Mark

II Corinthians 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

II Corinthians 11:15 "Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

It's not them that's going to be putting the hurt on people,it shall be the two witnesses,per Rev 11...

Those with the seal shall not take the mark,as they are God's Elect....However just because one claims to be saved,dos'nt make you an elect.....

they cannot go around torturing and killing people nand at the same time claim to be of God,just won't work...Im not saying Christians won't be killed during this time,but this will be the time when people do God a service....

John 16:2
"They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."
Again these are the same creatures,as you call them,from Gen 6,and they were deceptively beautiful...

I agree,the details are in the context,understanding the context however,is more important!!!To me anyway....

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi n2the light,

It seems to me we have wandered far from the topic & thus do not have a focus. So I will leave this now.

Thank you for the discussion. Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi n2the light,

It seems to me we have wandered far from the topic & thus do not have a focus. So I will leave this now.

Thank you for the discussion. Marilyn.

 

[n2thelight]

Hi n2the light,

It seems to me we have wandered far from the topic & thus do not have a focus. So I will leave this now.

Thank you for the discussion. Marilyn.

I feel that it's all connected,but I understand...

Thank you as well

 

[john darling]

If the real sin behind the marks the beast is simple everyday economic buying and selling, then everyone on this board is already guilty of it.

Think about the logic behind it. The Mark will be used to control buying and selling. The only way to continue buying and selling will be to take the Beast's Mark. The Mark will be a sign of loyalty to the Beast. Will it be a "real sin" to buy and sell at that time? Sure it will be. The logic is simple when you choose to see it for what it's actually saying.

But what about buying/selling as a sin at THIS time, before the Mark? You seem to be hung up on the concept that, because you've depended on buying and selling for your whole life, there is no problem with it. It's common, normal, ordinary..."simple everyday economics". And if it's "simple everyday economics" now, why should it be any different when the Beast comes to power? You've reasoned the issue on the basis of, "but that's the way we've always done it".

That could be true, if only it weren't for Jesus' teachings on the same topic. The "real sin" isn't just doing what's "normal". The real sin is in choosing to believe it's normal to act contrary to the values of Heaven. Consider this evidence...

LK 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

LK 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

LK 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

LK 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

LK 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

All normal, ordinary, "simple everyday" activities and yet Jesus criticized them. Why? Did he really think that eating, drinking, marriage, planting and building were sinful activities? No. The problem is that the people were just too busy with the "cares of this world" to care about what God wanted. He said it will be the same in the end time and isn't that exactly what you've described with your "simple everyday economics" doctrine?

It's like that with our dependence on mammon (money and the things money can buy). We've come to believe so fully that money is the source of life that we give nearly all of our time working to get more of it. Most of us genuinely believe that we'd die without money nor can we see any other means of living which is not dependent on money. The spell is so strong that we can't even hear the son of God say anything different. We argue and explain away any teachings of his which are contrary to working for money.

Consider this other evidence:

LK 14:17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.

LK 14:18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.

LK 14:19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.

LK 14:20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

LK 14:21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

Buying, selling, marriage, merchandise...all everyday ordinary things, and yet they still managed to stop people from acting when God called on them. Can't you see it?

An unwillingness to change. An unwillingness to forsake. An unwillingness to hear. Anything becomes a "real sin" if we put it before God, and that's exactly what our dependence on mammon represents.

This is why the AC will use money as his "mark", or sign of loyalty and why the Mark will be so completely effective. If it were jelly beans the people of the world felt they could not live without then he'd use jelly beans as his mark. It just so happens that it is not jelly beans which they feel they cannot live without; it is mammon (money and the things money can buy). The point isn't so much about getting people to follow the Beast as it is about getting them to STOP following God.

 

[JohnD]

I would say the AC will use his mark as money.

 

[JohnD]

When put to the test, take the mark or die or die trying to survive, how many of us would be faithful?

Can't say no to temptations now...
...suddenly then you will be able to make that choice?

Something to think about.

How often have we (and I have) made the wrong choices and said something like "well I HAVE to have a job... so this compromise against my faith belonging to a union that supports gay rights... or voting for a candidate regardless of their stance on abortion... etc. well we HAVE to vote... or we HAVE to take care of our families... think of the disciples of Jesus who abandoned EVERYTHING to follow him.

After all, it's just a stupid mark, 666... what's the harm? It will never drive my faith from me...

Revelation 14:9–12 (AV)
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 3:10 (AV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Daniel 12:12 (AV)
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

 

[JohnD]

I often wondered about this with any form of Preterism that puts the fulfillment of all this in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple at 70 CE...

God would exact such an eternal condemnation for following Ceasar and his face on the coins (which is their argument that no man can buy or sell without the mark...

 

[Sinthesis]

I often wondered about this with any form of Preterism that puts the fulfillment of all this in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple at 70 CE...

God would exact such an eternal condemnation for following Ceasar and his face on the coins (which is their argument that no man can buy or sell without the mark...

What?

 

[JohnD]

Preterism, mark o' th' beast... Caesar Nero no buy no sell w/o Caesar face and inscription on coins = eternal doom for spending...

 

[Sinthesis]

Preterism, mark o' th' beast... Caesar Nero no buy no sell w/o Caesar face and inscription on coins = eternal doom for spending...

What?
Jesus tells us it is acceptable to use coins bearing the image of 'Caesar' for their worldly purpose.

Mar 12:13 ¶ And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words.
Mar 12:14 - And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?
Mar 12:15 - Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.
Mar 12:16 - And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.
Mar 12:17 - And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.​

 

[Malachi]

I would say the AC will use his mark as money.

How about authorization to use your money? The mark is authorization, not cash.

 

[john darling]

What?
Jesus tells us it is acceptable to use coins bearing the image of 'Caesar' for their worldly purpose.

Way back on page 15 Deborah also mentioned Caesar, but in a much different way than how Sinthesis has just done. Here is the text from that time.

post #287

This actually happened in the Roman Empire to Jews and Christians who would not declare the Caesar as a god, the number one God. People were martyred, burned at the stake. Caesar's picture was on the coinage that they had to use to buy and sell.
Many people died rather than declare Caesar a god.

The context was the Mark of the Beast and how the prophecy states the purpose of the Mark will be to control buying and selling. In her post, Deborah makes a link between service to Caesar and service to money, in much the same way that service to the Beast will be shown through buying and selling via his Mark. I was actually quite surprised since we usually disagree, but on this point I supported her by replying with these comments...

post #288

Caesar is one of the top reasons people give today for justifying their service to mammon. They say, "don't you know Jesus said give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar"? They rarely quote the second half, "and give to God what belongs to God". The genius of this answer, which made Jesus' tempters marvel, is that it allows people to hear what they want to hear and they could not catch him in his words because of this. But the basic lesson behind the two choices is still relevant for us today and completely consistent with Jesus' overall theme on money and materialism. For people who want to follow Jesus they hear the second half; after we've given to God what belongs to him, there is nothing left for Caesar. But for people who want an excuse to continue serving mammon they only hear the first half and feel justified in trying to serve both masters.

Instead of having the kind of faith you describe of the Christians waaaaay back in Jesus day, (i.e. people who were willing to die rather than serve Caesar), today we've got a world full of Christians who can't seem to stop themselves from quoting the virtues of serving Caesar. My, how the faithful have fallen.

Huh, I wonder if it's that I really am a genuine prophet or if it's just that Christians these days are so predictable.

 

[john darling]

How about authorization to use your money? The mark is authorization, not cash.

You make a good point here, Malachi (I think)! The significance of the Mark isn't really about "cash" or "microchips". Those are just physical manifestations of a deeper spiritual problem. They are shadows of the problem.

The deeper issue is (as Malachi has suggested) authorization. Or, to put it another way, loyalty. We "authorize" or affirm the Beast as our provider (or subjects of his system) when we use his system to survive, rather than to live by faith in an invisible God who has already told us to seek HIS kingdom first.

The Mark simply represents a line in the concrete, a visible (at least before it's injected under the skin) show of loyalty. Loyalty to the systems of man via buying/selling, or loyalty to God's invisible Kingdom of love and sharing. The fact that the prophecy gives so much detail about it (i.e. on the hand, for buying/selling) is meant to communicate to people the seriousness of the spiritual problem of our dependence on money. Instead, we consistently explain away the prophecy, even as we see it starting to take shape right before our eyes, and all because of the root of all evil.

 

[ezrider]

Can you explain this scripture using the words in the scripture?

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Who is they and them in v10?
Are they saved?
Why does God send them a strong delusion?
Could anyone not be deceived if God sends them a delusion so that they will be deceived?

Thanks

Hi Deborah13, I was browsing through this thread looking for a past comment and happened to fall upon your question about who are the unrighteous spoken of in verse 10.

The unrighteous are those who love the knowledge of the law and scriptures more than they do the the knowledge of God. Compare to Romans 1.

Romans 1:16-23
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

The unrighteous are those who posses the truth through the knowledge of the law and the knowledge of the scriptures and try to overcome by their own works and knowledge. They DO NOT posses the gift of FAITH that reveals the righteousness of Christ.

The Just shall live by Faith. The unjust and unrighteous live by the knowledge of the Law and they have yet to repent of their sin, the one sin they must answer for; the sin of Adam's transgression. Of the tree of Knowledge you shall NOT eat, for in the day that you eat thereof you shall DIE. Do not be like Adam and hide from the presence of the Lord because of the knowledge of your sin.

.

 

[Choir Loft]

WATCH TURKEY

There are a number of ways of determining the identity of the anti-Christ, the man of sin, the one who will utter terrible blasphemous things about the Almighty. One of the ways is to read the Bible. Another is to use the Bible in conjunction with the historic record.

The Bible clearly says that the antiChrist will be revealed following the great apostacy, or the falling away of the church (2 Thess 2:1-4). As of this writing the apostasy spoken of by St. Paul is in full throttle. Europe, once the cradle of Christendom, is now a secular region. American Protestantism is in self-destruct mode as predicted by nearly every major theologian of the past (20th) century.(1) Roman Catholicism is reeling from divisive internal issues and public controversy. The Christian communities of the middle east Nestorian and Coptic are under assault and have nearly been extinguished by war and brutal persecution. While Jews are technically not Christians, they too are experiencing a revival of anti-semitic violence and ostracism. If the Bible is to be believed, the next person to appear on the stage of history will be the antiChrist.

A second way to determine the antiChrist is to examine his point of origin. Many have mistakenly assumed that this leader would arise out of the old city of Rome and thus massage their bigotry against the Roman Catholic church by assuming it to be the pope. It isn't.

Due to economic, political and military factors the Roman Empire was divided into two parts in the latter years of the 3rd century (285AD). The western empire continued to be governed from the city of Rome until its eventual collapse and fall in 476 AD (or thereabouts depending upon the record you consult). The eastern empire was governed from the city of Byzantium, renamed Constantinople (or New Rome as the Greeks called it) by Emperor Constantine in 330 AD. The eastern Roman Empire continued as a political, military and economic entity until its capture by Ottoman Sultan Mehmet II in 1453. Several important historical markers can be traced to the fall of Constantinople.

- Constantinople was the western terminus of the Silk Road trade route with India, China and points east of the city. Following the closure of the trade routes, European nations sought ways around the Ottoman/Muslim Empire by sea. A direct result of this period of exploration was the discovery of the Americas in 1492 - less than 50 years after the fall of Constantinople.

- The period between the fall of Rome and the fall of Constantinople is referred to in the historic record as the Middle Ages, Dark Ages or the period of Christian/Islamic wars known generally as the Crusades.

- When Mehmet II seized Constantinople, the city was established as the seat of the Ottoman Caliphate. Over the next 500 years the influence of the Ottomans waned until its collapse following the end of WWI.

- In 1923 the modern state of Turkey was established in the region of the old Ottoman Empire. Constantinople was officially renamed Istanbul seven years later.

WATCH TURKEY

The modern state of Turkey is seething with sentiment to revive the old Caliphate and lead the peoples of the Levant into a new period of global influence, prosperity and religious dominance.

Both the Bible and modern Islamic scholars speak of the rise of an ancient empire. Some Christian scholars have interpreted this to mean that a revived influence of Rome is indicated, but mistakenly focus on the western empire instead of the eastern empire. Islamic politics and eschatology is not so muddled.

WATCH TURKEY

Turkey has a thriving trade and political relationship with Israel. It's the only Muslim nation that does. This puts Turkey in a unique position to betray Israeli confidence - an event also predicted by the Bible.

Turkey has betrayed friends and neighbors before. Prior to the current war in Syria, Turkey made overtures of peace and safety by means of advantageous trade deals with Syria. When these deals were perceived as being no longer of benefit, Turkish leadership under PM Erdogan reversed course and fomented a civil war. Ankara, in partnership with the GCC, now provides military support for al Qaeda and other 'rebels' in that country.(3)

WATCH TURKEY

The Bible also states that Turkey is the throne of satan, specifically the ancient site of Pergamun. (Rev. 2:12-13)

WATCH TURKEY

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

(1) I refer the reader to one of the best in the field.
THE GREAT EVANGELICAL DISASTER - Francis A. Schaeffer
Crossway Books ISBN 0-89107-308-6

(2) A good work to enhance your study was published by Joel Richardson
THE ISLAMIC ANTICHRIST
WND Books ISBN 978-1-935071-12-9

(3) Because Turkey is a member of the NATO alliance, the US, UK & France have been unwillingly involved in the Syrian campaign by Turkey. In 2013 all three nations withdrew from a planned invasion of Syria, thus incurring the wrath of Erdogan and the GCC. The GCC responded by creating its own terrorist 'rebels' - The Islamic State of Iraq and Levant (ISIL/ISIS). While the motivations for war by the GCC in the Levant are religious, those of Turkey are political, historic and economic as well as religious. The battle flag and sword of Mohammad [pbuh] lies in a museum in Istanbul and some say it will be carried into war once again by the leader of the revived Caliphate. (the antiChrist?)

WATCH TURKEY

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The use of numbers in Jewish literature was common. For example, at the beginning of the Gospel of Matthew, there is a genealogy that divides history from Abraham to Christ into three sections of fourteen generations each. It isn't meant to be an accurate genealogy. The triple use of the number 14 has a specific purpose. 14 is the number of David's name. The ise of the three 14's is to convey the point that Jesus is the son of David, the promised Messiah.
666 is the number of emperor Nero's name. He was the Roman emperor at the time of the writing of the Apocalypse.

Do you have anything in writing to back up what you are saying here?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

WATCH TURKEY

There are a number of ways of determining the identity of the anti-Christ, the man of sin, the one who will utter terrible blasphemous things about the Almighty. One of the ways is to read the Bible. Another is to use the Bible in conjunction with the historic record.

The Bible clearly says that the antiChrist will be revealed following the great apostacy, or the falling away of the church (2 Thess 2:1-4). As of this writing the apostasy spoken of by St. Paul is in full throttle. Europe, once the cradle of Christendom, is now a secular region. American Protestantism is in self-destruct mode as predicted by nearly every major theologian of the past (20th) century.(1) Roman Catholicism is reeling from divisive internal issues and public controversy. The Christian communities of the middle east Nestorian and Coptic are under assault and have nearly been extinguished by war and brutal persecution. While Jews are technically not Christians, they too are experiencing a revival of anti-semitic violence and ostracism. If the Bible is to be believed, the next person to appear on the stage of history will be the antiChrist.

A second way to determine the antiChrist is to examine his point of origin. Many have mistakenly assumed that this leader would arise out of the old city of Rome and thus massage their bigotry against the Roman Catholic church by assuming it to be the pope. It isn't.

Due to economic, political and military factors the Roman Empire was divided into two parts in the latter years of the 3rd century (285AD). The western empire continued to be governed from the city of Rome until its eventual collapse and fall in 476 AD (or thereabouts depending upon the record you consult). The eastern empire was governed from the city of Byzantium, renamed Constantinople (or New Rome as the Greeks called it) by Emperor Constantine in 330 AD. The eastern Roman Empire continued as a political, military and economic entity until its capture by Ottoman Sultan Mehmet II in 1453. Several important historical markers can be traced to the fall of Constantinople.

- Constantinople was the western terminus of the Silk Road trade route with India, China and points east of the city. Following the closure of the trade routes, European nations sought ways around the Ottoman/Muslim Empire by sea. A direct result of this period of exploration was the discovery of the Americas in 1492 - less than 50 years after the fall of Constantinople.

- The period between the fall of Rome and the fall of Constantinople is referred to in the historic record as the Middle Ages, Dark Ages or the period of Christian/Islamic wars known generally as the Crusades.

- When Mehmet II seized Constantinople, the city was established as the seat of the Ottoman Caliphate. Over the next 500 years the influence of the Ottomans waned until its collapse following the end of WWI.

- In 1923 the modern state of Turkey was established in the region of the old Ottoman Empire. Constantinople was officially renamed Istanbul seven years later.

WATCH TURKEY

The modern state of Turkey is seething with sentiment to revive the old Caliphate and lead the peoples of the Levant into a new period of global influence, prosperity and religious dominance.

Both the Bible and modern Islamic scholars speak of the rise of an ancient empire. Some Christian scholars have interpreted this to mean that a revived influence of Rome is indicated, but mistakenly focus on the western empire instead of the eastern empire. Islamic politics and eschatology is not so muddled.

WATCH TURKEY

Turkey has a thriving trade and political relationship with Israel. It's the only Muslim nation that does. This puts Turkey in a unique position to betray Israeli confidence - an event also predicted by the Bible.

Turkey has betrayed friends and neighbors before. Prior to the current war in Syria, Turkey made overtures of peace and safety by means of advantageous trade deals with Syria. When these deals were perceived as being no longer of benefit, Turkish leadership under PM Erdogan reversed course and fomented a civil war. Ankara, in partnership with the GCC, now provides military support for al Qaeda and other 'rebels' in that country.(3)

WATCH TURKEY

The Bible also states that Turkey is the throne of satan, specifically the ancient site of Pergamun. (Rev. 2:12-13)

WATCH TURKEY

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

(1) I refer the reader to one of the best in the field.
THE GREAT EVANGELICAL DISASTER - Francis A. Schaeffer
Crossway Books ISBN 0-89107-308-6

(2) A good work to enhance your study was published by Joel Richardson
THE ISLAMIC ANTICHRIST
WND Books ISBN 978-1-935071-12-9

(3) Because Turkey is a member of the NATO alliance, the US, UK & France have been unwillingly involved in the Syrian campaign by Turkey. In 2013 all three nations withdrew from a planned invasion of Syria, thus incurring the wrath of Erdogan and the GCC. The GCC responded by creating its own terrorist 'rebels' - The Islamic State of Iraq and Levant (ISIL/ISIS). While the motivations for war by the GCC in the Levant are religious, those of Turkey are political, historic and economic as well as religious. The battle flag and sword of Mohammad [pbuh] lies in a museum in Istanbul and some say it will be carried into war once again by the leader of the revived Caliphate. (the antiChrist?)

WATCH TURKEY

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Jim Parker]

Do you have anything in writing to back up what you are saying here?

http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/documents/Matthew's Genealogy of Jesus of Nazareth.htm