The Israelis Survived

[jasoncran]

hate to nitppick but my dad told me that adam was jew and so was noah.

but that isnt quite what the ot says.

 

[cyberjosh]

God loved the gentiles too.

He destroyed gentile civilizations because they were evil and sinned, not because they were gentile. He destroyed Jewish cities also. Though He favored Jews and such because they were His elect.

Noah was a gentile. God loved Noah.

Okay. Good, but why was Israel elect [a question for everyone]? Were they (their forefathers) not pagan like any other (Joshua 24:2)? They were, and remained, surrounded by a semitic pagan world and were themselves as semites a part of its international culture (later headed by semitic monarchs). And as I asked, why an Aramean (i.e. Abraham - who worshiped the Babylonian moon god 'Sin' most of his life)? Why did God choose a person from a post-Flood pagan culture & nation located in morden day Iraq and destine them to move away and occupy relatively small Canaan? As a culture before the law of Moses how were they to be externally distinguished from other cultures? I'm agreeing with you but I'm trying to direct the conversation as well in question/answer form to see what people come up with.

 

[Pard]

Good question. I'd say the answer is faith. Abraham showed faith. How many people would be willing to pick up everything they had and leave their culture and lucrative job because a voice that claimed to be God told them to do so?

Think about it, this is before people were Jews or Christian and they did not probably recognize God, which is not hard to see as people in the Bible didn't recognize Jesus after the resurrection nor did they recognize Him for who He is, IE God.

Before people had this understanding that, "OK that voice is God," it would have appeared as just a voice. That voice is telling you to get up and leave. That is a lot of faith right there.

What I am trying to get at is I doubt there were many other people who had that kind of faith. God knew Abraham had that kind of faith and so He went to Abraham.

 

[cyberjosh]

Good question. I'd say the answer is faith. Abraham showed faith. How many people would be willing to pick up everything they had and leave their culture and lucrative job because a voice that claimed to be God told them to do so?

Think about it, this is before people were Jews or Christian and they did not probably recognize God, which is not hard to see as people in the Bible didn't recognize Jesus after the resurrection nor did they recognize Him for who He is, IE God.

Before people had this understanding that, "OK that voice is God," it would have appeared as just a voice. That voice is telling you to get up and leave. That is a lot of faith right there.

What I am trying to get at is I doubt there were many other people who had that kind of faith. God knew Abraham had that kind of faith and so He went to Abraham.

The part that you said in bold is actually very close to the point I was wanting to get at with those questions. During Abraham and his immediate descendants' generation(s) it was during a time much earlier than they were to become what we would later recognize and think of as Israel (and a "Jewish" people), and they were still just regular Semites admist the contemporary middle eastern culture, who (however) had faith in this new God who was revealing Himself to them. The personal name of YHWH is not even revealed for another 400 years to the Israelites either. So this was a new thing being revealed to such previous pagans.

God had to slowly train them away from their idolatry and traditional culture. We see a consequence of the struggle in this new effort to start away from their ancestor's pagan heritage and practices in the story of Jacob in that (at first) there is no other separate/parallel family also called to follow this newly revealed God to marry from/between, so Jacob has no choice but to choose a pagan wife, but with his father's direction to choose a wife from their immediately removed relatives. But his wife Rachel is still an idolater at first, for she takes her father Laban's teraphim, household gods, with her:

Genesis 31:19, 30, 34:
19 When Laban had gone to shear his flock, then Rachel stole the household idols that were her father's
....
30 Now you have indeed gone away because you longed greatly for your father's house; but why did you steal my gods?"
....
34 Now Rachel had taken the household idols and put them in the camel's saddle, and she sat on them. And Laban felt through all the tent but did not find them.

This is just after Jacob is done working 14 years for his two wives and is trying to get out of the pagan land back into the land which God called his father and grandfather. The idolatrous lifestyle follows him back to Canaan though because of his wife Rachel, which is an issue he has to deal with later as I show in the following verses.

If you pay close enough attention one will see the connection between the preceding story and what is said four chapters later in Genesis 35:

1 Then God said to Jacob, "Arise, go up to Bethel and live there, and make an altar there to God, who appeared to you when you fled from your brother Esau."
2 So Jacob said to his household and to all who were with him, "Put away the foreign gods which are among you, and purify yourselves and change your garments;
3 and let us arise and go up to Bethel, and I will make an altar there to God, who answered me in the day of my distress and has been with me wherever I have gone."
4 So they gave to Jacob all the foreign gods which they had and the rings which were in their ears, and Jacob hid them under the oak which was near Shechem.

Jacob, in now being prompted to make an alter to the God who called them out of their former country and pagan lifestyle, here recognizes with a conscientious sense of propriety that he must cleanse his own house from idolatry first. This is an issue two generations after Abraham first followed God into Canaan, and the issue of the previous generations and practices did not just immediately disappear. In this I think we see an illustration of the sometimes slow, but sure, struggle to "purify [our]selves and change [our] garments" (Gen. 35:2) once we are saved to get out of the world. God didn't make Abraham and his descendants elect because they were different than everyone else, but rather since they were indeed like everyone else He yet chose them as an example of His great mercy. While we were yet sinners God saved us.

The issue of purification was to come up again at mount Sinai at the giving of the law. Just as Jacob had to purify his own household of paganry before drawing near to God, so also the Israelites had to purify themselves of the paganry of Egypt to draw near to God at Sinai: "The LORD also said to Moses, "Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their garments [compare Gen. 35:2]; and let them be ready for the third day, for on the third day the LORD will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people" (Exodus 19:10-11).

And from there on the issue was repeatedly brought up throughout the history of Israel, which at one point (during Elijah's day) only had 300 priests still dedicated to YHWH, while all the others had gone over to worshiping Baal. Israel often looked no different from their neighbors, but God remained faithful and preserved a remnant. Then the issue is revived once again by Paul for all Christians and the Church today: "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Corinthians 7:1; cf. 2 Corinthians 6:14-18). So let us now in light of God's mercy realize that we do not have to be like the world, though it may be slow and a struggle at first to rid ourselves of our former life, and realize that God is demanding and requiring that we be holy and sanctified if we want to approach Him, and yet provides us even with the mercy and grace to do it.

Why did "the Israelis survive" and other nations fall? God's mercy alone. For God himself has known them to be a stiff-necked people throughout history (and even today), and Gentiles were no different in their sin when God came to them in mercy also. But the Scriptures tell us that Israel will return to God one day as well. But thank God now for his sacrifice by Christ Jesus for all of our sins, Gentile or Jew!

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Strangelove]

ya think. i'm of the stock of abraham.

what amazes me is how the athiestic jew(by lineage) will often deny our God yet kling to that promise.

What promise Jason?

Promise to whom?

 

[jasoncran]

the restoration of isreal as land to the jew. millienists accept this and most pre-tribbers are acceptant to this. this is why the ot is important to read.

 

[Strangelove]

the restoration of isreal as land to the jew. millienists accept this and most pre-tribbers are acceptant to this. this is why the ot is important to read.

Oh yeah? Have you read Joshua?

21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he swear to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he swear unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Yes. God made promises to the House of Isreal / Hebrews.

And all came to pass. Done. Finished. Kaput. They messed up as usual.

They had their chance and they blew it. Promises to the Jews as a race are finished my friend. That was old times. The promise in our time is Christ Jesus. They can either accept that promise or go to hell. It's anyones choice, Jew or Gentile.

Elevating the Nation State of Isreal to pre-eminance is idol worship pure and simple.​

 

[Bazz1040]

Has anyone considered the fact that the Israeli people survived? Their neighbors are long dead, but the Israelis prosper on. The Babylonians are destroyed. The Persians are gone. The Egyptians are dead. The Greeks and Romans are only preserved in their books. The Canaanites are history.

You get the point. The only ones to survive all those years were the Israelites. Even after they appeared to be gone they still carried on and managed to pop back into their rightful lands.

Has anyone ever considered that is in itself is an amazing testament to God and His love for His people?

Not only are they still around, but so is their religion, books, and customs.

Those empires did not survive but there descendants are scattered all over the world. The Jewish nation is not as they once were when Solomon was king over all the 12 tribes of Israel. But I would not consider the Jews truly blessed since as a Nation they are still in spiritual darkness.

 

[Bazz1040]

hate to nitppick but my dad told me that adam was jew and so was noah.

but that isnt quite what the ot says.

Not only was not Adam or Noah not a Jew but also Abraham…….Abraham was a gentile. The vast majority of humanity is gentile and the vast majority of those that will be in the kingdom of God will be gentiles.

The Jews were one of the twelve tribes of Israel that were God's chosen people in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant. But in the New Testament, under the New Covenant God chosen people are those that are filled with the Holy Spirit. The Old Covenant cease to exist when Jesus died on the cross and the New one came into existence immediately when the Old one was nullified.

 

[Strangelove]

Not only was not Adam or Noah not a Jew but also Abraham…….Abraham was a gentile. The vast majority of humanity is gentile and the vast majority of those that will be in the kingdom of God will be gentiles.

The Jews were one of the twelve tribes of Israel that were God's chosen people in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant. But in the New Testament, under the New Covenant God chosen people are those that are filled with the Holy Spirit. The Old Covenant cease to exist when Jesus died on the cross and the New one came into existence immediately when the Old one was nullified.

Huh? Whats this? A rare Christian who understands who "Isreal" is today and who the promises belong to? HOORAY!

Welcome to the forums Bazz. Good to have you here. The names Strangelove. You can call me Doc.

 

[jasoncran]

Oh yeah? Have you read Joshua?

21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he swear to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he swear unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Yes. God made promises to the House of Isreal / Hebrews.

And all came to pass. Done. Finished. Kaput. They messed up as usual.

They had their chance and they blew it. Promises to the Jews as a race are finished my friend. That was old times. The promise in our time is Christ Jesus. They can either accept that promise or go to hell. It's anyones choice, Jew or Gentile.

Elevating the Nation State of Isreal to pre-eminance is idol worship pure and simple.​

acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him saying,Lord, wilt thou at this time restore AGAIN the kingdom to isreal?

notice the implacation of again, its means that isreal had something and lost it.

the response from the lord was this

1:7 " and he said unto them,It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power"
and unto 8"but ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witness unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth"

read on to vs 9 and that is the last words from his physical body.

does that in anyway shape , form deny them that he wont restore the kingdom?

nope. instead he states that the disciplines werent to know that and they were to focus on getting the holy ghost and being witness.

the latter being more important.

so in the nt there no verse that says isreal is done. just that the style of worship they used isnt needed. the law.

but not the land and its promised inhabitants.

 

[Bazz1040]

Huh? Whats this? A rare Christian who understands who "Isreal" is today and who the promises belong to? HOORAY!

Welcome to the forums Bazz. Good to have you here. The names Strangelove. You can call me Doc.

Thank you, Doc.

 

[jasoncran]

Not only was not Adam or Noah not a Jew but also Abraham…….Abraham was a gentile. The vast majority of humanity is gentile and the vast majority of those that will be in the kingdom of God will be gentiles.

The Jews were one of the twelve tribes of Israel that were God's chosen people in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant. But in the New Testament, under the New Covenant God chosen people are those that are filled with the Holy Spirit. The Old Covenant cease to exist when Jesus died on the cross and the New one came into existence immediately when the Old one was nullified.

actually if i want to be techinical abraham was semite, so is the others of his kin.

i know that those before abraham arent jews. that i did state clearly. i said that while my dad told me that the jew consired adam and noah to be jews, the bible doesnt.

 

[Bazz1040]

i am curious to what is the fate of the gentiles that never heard of yhwh in the ot times.

They will be resurrected in the second resurrection. It is not the same kind of resurrection that the saints and the righteous prophets will go through. They will be resurrected back to their former state of existence and the Spirit of God will be offered to them. I have no doubt that the vast majority if not all will accept salvation. This also applies to those that have heard of Jesus and died but never repented. Repentance is a gift that God grants to the individual. So if an individual did not repent it is because God did not grant that person repentance.

 

[Bazz1040]

actually if i want to be techinical abraham was semite, so is the others of his kin.

i know that those before abraham arent jews. that i did state clearly. i said that while my dad told me that the jew consired adam and noah to be jews, the bible doesnt.

People can say whatever they want and they will but I believe what the Bible tells me. And for Abraham to be a Jew he would have to be a descendant to Judah, who is the father of the Jews or the tribe of Judah.

 

[jasoncran]

i know that, i was stating the jews beliefs.

but abraham was drawn out from the gentiles correct but he is a hebrew just a much as the man jacob was.

hebrew was given to them before jacob was born if i recall correctly.

the semites are just the jews, they include the cannanites, moab,ammonites, arabs, edominites and so on.

 

[jasoncran]

They will be resurrected in the second resurrection. It is not the same kind of resurrection that the saints and the righteous prophets will go through. They will be resurrected back to their former state of existence and the Spirit of God will be offered to them. I have no doubt that the vast majority if not all will accept salvation. This also applies to those that have heard of Jesus and died but never repented. Repentance is a gift that God grants to the individual. So if an individual did not repent it is because God did not grant that person repentance.

that sounds like a jw belief.

 

[Bazz1040]

that sounds like a jw belief.

Maybe so, but more so, it is Biblical.

 

[Bazz1040]

i know that, i was stating the jews beliefs.

but abraham was drawn out from the gentiles correct but he is a hebrew just a much as the man jacob was.

hebrew was given to them before jacob was born if i recall correctly.

the semites are just the jews, they include the cannanites, moab,ammonites, arabs, edominites and so on.

It would not be the first time that the Jews were wrong about something in the Bible.

 

[jasoncran]

Maybe so, but more so, it is Biblical.

i can see that, but theresnt a verse to say who will exactly is in in the millenial reign.

only that those that dont follow the commands of christ will be judged and that nations will come to the tree of life for healing, and to worship the lord on the earth in Jersusalem.

those their is this that statement without the law theres no sin, but the issues with that use is this the concetpt that the lord wrote laws upon all mens hearts.