The Israelis Survived

[Bazz1040]

i can see that, but theresnt a verse to say who will exactly is in in the millenial reign.

only that those that dont follow the commands of christ will be judged and that nations will come to the tree of life for healing, and to worship the lord on the earth in Jersusalem.

those their is this that statement without the law theres no sin, but the issues with that use is this the concetpt that the lord wrote laws upon all mens hearts.

Well, I was not talking about the millennium. The second resurrection comes after the millennium.

 

[jasoncran]

Well, I was not talking about the millennium. The second resurrection comes after the millennium.

it is my belief that those that never heard the law must be given the chance to see the lord and be able to make a choice.

if not then why would he judge them?

for its written that its apointed unto ALL men to die then unto the judgment.

all means all men there. so they must have some chance to follow him or not.

 

[Bazz1040]

it is my belief that those that never heard the law must be given the chance to see the lord and be able to make a choice.

if not then why would he judge them?

for its written that its apointed unto ALL men to die then unto the judgment.

all means all men there. so they must have some chance to follow him or not.

The Bible does not say anything about those that never heard the law as far as those that will be in the second resurrection.......we are not under the Old Testament way of living. What these people will need is the same thing that we are given at baptism……the Holy Spirit. With the Holy Spirit they will be able to do what is right in the sight of God. They will for the first time think the way God thinks and love it.

 

[jasoncran]

they most be cleansed first then get the holy ghost.

they most have the ability to reject otherwise , is that fiar to adam and eve, they had it far better then we will ever know and choose sin over him

the verse that i quoted is in romans

"for without law the theres no sin"
so if the ancient gentile doesnt know sin(defined) then he has to be shown and allowed to choose.

if the holy spirit is given like that why do men sin today?

 

[Bazz1040]

they most be cleansed first then get the holy ghost.

they most have the ability to reject otherwise , is that fiar to adam and eve, they had it far better then we will ever know and choose sin over him

the verse that i quoted is in romans

"for without law the theres no sin"
so if the ancient gentile doesnt know sin(defined) then he has to be shown and allowed to choose.

if the holy spirit is given like that why do men sin today?

They are already cleans.....all people have been cleans by Jesus through His sacrifice. Remember what Jesus said? What God has cleansed do not call common or unclean. The only difference between a Christian and a unbeliever is that the Christian have repented and has the Holy Spirit.

 

[jasoncran]

no, that isnt what the vision states that is in reference to gentiles being able to recieve the gospel. if the gentiles that never knew the lord and did sin( all men fall short) and they havent the chance to hear the gospel how can they have been cleansed when the lord didnt tell them what he wanted so they sinned by their gentillian nature

paul says the gentiles have a law unto themselves.

this isnt a cut and dry case for the bible isnt clear on this at all.

so a gentile that does hear now must choose as he has heard the gospel, and then be saved in order to get the h.s.

what you are saying almost sounds of univeralism, which isnt biblical.
i'm talking about those nations in the ot times till the ascencsion that died not ever hearing the messiah, and some do believe that lord spoke to the dead men(all) in hell,(see the verse where the dead saints minister to the discpiles for forty days.

that is possible that he did, but what if after that time?

 

[Bazz1040]

no, that isnt what the vision states that is in reference to gentiles being able to recieve the gospel. if the gentiles that never knew the lord and did sin( all men fall short) and they havent the chance to hear the gospel how can they have been cleansed when the lord didnt tell them what he wanted so they sinned by their gentillian nature

paul says the gentiles have a law unto themselves.

this isnt a cut and dry case for the bible isnt clear on this at all.

so a gentile that does hear now must choose as he has heard the gospel, and then be saved in order to get the h.s.

what you are saying almost sounds of univeralism, which isnt biblical.
i'm talking about those nations in the ot times till the ascencsion that died not ever hearing the messiah, and some do believe that lord spoke to the dead men(all) in hell,(see the verse where the dead saints minister to the discpiles for forty days.

that is possible that he did, but what if after that time?

Jesus paid the price for the sins of world.

1 John 2:1-2 (GW)
1 My dear children, I'm writing this to you so that you will not sin. Yet, if anyone does sin, we have Jesus Christ, who has God's full approval. He speaks on our behalf when we come into the presence of the Father.
2 He is the payment for our sins, and not only for our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 (KJV)
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So a person does not have to believe or accept Jesus for their sins to be forgiven, because God has forgiven the sins of the world by the sacrifice of Jesus......all they need to do is believe and accept what He did.

 

[Strangelove]

acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him saying,Lord, wilt thou at this time restore AGAIN the kingdom to isreal?

notice the implacation of again, its means that isreal had something and lost it.

the response from the lord was this

1:7 " and he said unto them,It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power"
and unto 8"but ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witness unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth"

read on to vs 9 and that is the last words from his physical body.

does that in anyway shape , form deny them that he wont restore the kingdom?

nope. instead he states that the disciplines werent to know that and they were to focus on getting the holy ghost and being witness.

the latter being more important.

so in the nt there no verse that says isreal is done. just that the style of worship they used isnt needed. the law.

but not the land and its promised inhabitants.

Son of Jas,

The Kingdom doesnt mean the Nation State of Isreal buddy.

It goes to the uttermost part of the earth.

That means the Kingdom has no borders!

So its the SPIRITUAL Kingdom obviously.

Come on, you know Jerusalem / Zionism is the Whore of Babylon. We've established that.

Connect the dots Jason. Look at the need for Christian zionists to keep hammering into people that the State of Isreal is the big important kingdom and try to make us forget about the SPIRITUAL Kingdom of Isreal which includes all believers.

Are you going to abide in this delusion or are you going to "come out of her"?

 

[edwin]

Not only was not Adam or Noah not a Jew but also Abraham…….Abraham was a gentile. The vast majority of humanity is gentile and the vast majority of those that will be in the kingdom of God will be gentiles.

The Jews were one of the twelve tribes of Israel that were God's chosen people in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant. But in the New Testament, under the New Covenant God chosen people are those that are filled with the Holy Spirit. The Old Covenant cease to exist when Jesus died on the cross and the New one came into existence immediately when the Old one was nullified.

I would like to hear your explanation of why you feel the Old Covenant ceased to exist around the time of Jesus' death with reference to Jeremiah 31.

 

[Bazz1040]

I would like to hear your explanation of why you feel the Old Covenant ceased to exist around the time of Jesus' death with reference to Jeremiah 31.

That will be under the New Covenant.


Jeremiah 31:31-33 (Darby)
31 Behold, days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day of my taking them by the hand, to lead them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, saith Jehovah.
33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and will write it in their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.



If we were still under the Old Covenant there would be no salvation. No hope beyond the here and now. Under the Old Covenant the Israelites were only promise physical blessings.

 

[edwin]

That will be under the New Covenant.


Jeremiah 31:31-33 (Darby)
31 Behold, days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day of my taking them by the hand, to lead them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, saith Jehovah.
33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and will write it in their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.



If we were still under the Old Covenant there would be no salvation. No hope beyond the here and now. Under the Old Covenant the Israelites were only promise physical blessings.

So it is your understanding that those "days" in v 31 are referring to the time of Jesus' sacrifice, the so-called covenant of the cross, which replaces the covenant that God made with Israel at Sinai?

 

[The_Student]

Well, the longevity of the Jewish faith and the Catholic Church have many times been asserted as a testament towards the truth of those two faiths, but the same thing can be said with Buddhism, Taoism, or Confucianism, or China in general. China has been around for over 4000 or so years, and yet no one says that their longevity is a testament towards China's divine support. Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism were also evoked around the time of the first Emperor to establish order and harmony around 200 years before Christ, and Buddhism is altogether next to Hinduism one of the longest, organized religions or philosophies in the world. The reason that Greece, Rome, or Egypt eventually fell was because of their trying, essentially, to take over the known world and be an Empire. The Jews weren't trying to do so -- the Jews only wanted a place where they could be secure in practicing their religion.

China did take over many lands, but, after a certain point, China just professed that it frankly didn't care for taking over anymore lands. What causes collapses of states is imperialism or over-expansion done unwisely -- not because they just weren't blessed by a Deity. The only exception was the Catholic Church in actually taking over Europe, the majority of the known world to Christendom at the time, (Although the Muslims blocked Christianity from spreading into Asia from around 600 to 1400, when the caravel was discovered) and even the Catholic Church collapsed in power, when Martin Luther brought out Protestantism.

 

[Bazz1040]

So it is your understanding that those "days" in v 31 are referring to the time of Jesus' sacrifice, the so-called covenant of the cross, which replaces the covenant that God made with Israel at Sinai?

It goes even beyond that.....it includes those that lived before Jesus was born. Please realize that the House of Israel is not the Jews. Many people think the Jews is Israel…..they are not. The tribe of Israel separated themselves from Judah after the death of Solomon, and became an independent Nation seperate from Judah. The house of Israel is the 12 tribes of Israel, which the tribe of Judah (Jews) is only one of the twelve. In truth though, the name Israel rightfuly belong to Ephraim and Manasseh.

Those of the House of Israel that have died will be among those in the second resurrection, and will be living under the New Covenant.

Ezekiel 37:1-28 (BBE)
1 The hand of the Lord had been on me, and he took me out in the spirit of the Lord and put me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones;
2 And he made me go past them round about: and I saw that there was a very great number of them on the face of the wide valley, and they were very dry.
3 And he said to me, Son of man, is it possible for these bones to come to life? And I made answer, and said, It is for you to say, O Lord.
4 And again he said to me, Be a prophet to these bones, and say to them, O you dry bones, give ear to the word of the Lord.
5 This is what the Lord has said to these bones: See, I will make breath come into you so that you may come to life;
6 And I will put muscles on you and make flesh come on you, and put skin over you, and breath into you, so that you may have life; and you will be certain that I am the Lord.
7 So I gave the word as I was ordered: and at my words there was a shaking of the earth, and the bones came together, bone to bone.
8 And looking I saw that there were muscles on them and flesh came up, and they were covered with skin: but there was no breath in them.
9 And he said to me, Be a prophet to the wind, be a prophet, son of man, and say to the wind, The Lord has said: Come from the four winds, O wind, breathing on these dead so that they may come to life.
10 And I gave the word at his orders, and breath came into them, and they came to life and got up on their feet, a very great army.
11 Then he said to me, Son of man, these bones are all the children of Israel: and see, they are saying, Our bones have become dry our hope is gone, we are cut off completely.
12 For this cause be a prophet to them, and say, This is what the Lord has said: See, I am opening the resting-places of your dead, and I will make you come up out of your resting-places, O my people; and I will take you into the land of Israel.
13 And you will be certain that I am the Lord by my opening the resting-places of your dead and making you come up out of your resting-places, O my people.
14 And I will put my spirit in you, so that you may come to life, and I will give you a rest in your land: and you will be certain that I the Lord have said it and have done it, says the Lord.
15 And the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
16 And you, son of man, take one stick, writing on it, For Judah and for the children of Israel who are in his company: then take another stick, writing on it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and all the children of Israel who are in his company:
17 Then, joining them one to another, make them one stick, so that they may be one in your hand.
18 And when the children of your people say to you, Will you not make clear to us what these things have to do with us?
19 Then say to them, This is what the Lord has said: See, I am taking the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel who are in his company; and I will put it on the stick of Judah and make them one stick, and they will be one in my hand.
20 And the sticks with your writing on them will be in your hand before their eyes.
21 And say to them, These are the words of the Lord: See, I am taking the children of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and will get them together on every side, and take them into their land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king over them all: and they will no longer be two nations, and will no longer be parted into two kingdoms:
23 And they will no longer make themselves unclean with their images or with their hated things or with any of their sins: but I will give them salvation from all their turning away in which they have done evil, and will make them clean; and they will be to me a people, and I will be to them a God.
24 And my servant David will be king over them; and they will all have one keeper: and they will be guided by my orders and will keep my rules and do them.
25 And they will be living in the land which I gave to Jacob, my servant, in which your fathers were living; and they will go on living there, they and their children and their children's children, for ever: and David, my servant, will be their ruler for ever.
26 And I will make an agreement of peace with them: it will be an eternal agreement with them: and I will have mercy on them and make their numbers great, and will put my holy place among them for ever.
27 And my House will be over them; and I will be to them a God, and they will be to me a people.
28 And the nations will be certain that I who make Israel holy am the Lord, when my holy place is among them for ever.

 

[cyberjosh]

Well, the longevity of the Jewish faith and the Catholic Church have many times been asserted as a testament towards the truth of those two faiths, but the same thing can be said with Buddhism, Taoism, or Confucianism, or China in general. China has been around for over 4000 or so years, and yet no one says that their longevity is a testament towards China's divine support.

Your point is noted, however Israel actually ceased to exist as a nation in 70 A.D. when the Romans sacked Jerusalem, and had not been a nation for nearly 2000 years until 1948 when it was recreated. It is this fact which is noteworthy, and which also has bearing on illuminating/fulfilling Old Testament prophecy. Israel has since won many wars against nearly insurmountable odds from surrounding hostile nations (in 1948, 1967, 1973, etc.). Your comparison of China is not exactly parallel because China never ceased to exist as a country (much less for nearly 2000 years), although its regimes changed over time just like any nation's.

Just pointing that out.

~Josh

 

[jasoncran]

Jesus paid the price for the sins of world.

1 John 2:1-2 (GW)
1 My dear children, I'm writing this to you so that you will not sin. Yet, if anyone does sin, we have Jesus Christ, who has God's full approval. He speaks on our behalf when we come into the presence of the Father.
2 He is the payment for our sins, and not only for our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 (KJV)
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So a person does not have to believe or accept Jesus for their sins to be forgiven, because God has forgiven the sins of the world by the sacrifice of Jesus......all they need to do is believe and accept what He did.

they have to KNOW the lord, and how did the gentile who Never Heard the Gospel get saved If He Didnt know that he was a SINNER?

the Law and the one written upon the hearts of men is the one that shows you cant make it.

 

[Bazz1040]

they have to KNOW the lord, and how did the gentile who Never Heard the Gospel get saved If He Didnt know that he was a SINNER?

the Law and the one written upon the hearts of men is the one that shows you cant make it.

Whether the individual know that they are a sinner or not that fact still remains that all people have been forgiven. If God was to wait for the world to see that they are sinners and is destined to perish, then the world would have no hope because Jesus would still be waiting. So Jesus died for all whether we liked it or not. As the scripture say, while we were still sinners Christ died for the un-Godly.

 

[jasoncran]

so let me get this right, we dont have to repent, nor actually be told about the lord? that even though we sin, we have no worries as we are already forgiven?

am i correct to assume that men of all faiths dont need jesus?

 

[jasoncran]

Son of Jas,

The Kingdom doesnt mean the Nation State of Isreal buddy.

It goes to the uttermost part of the earth.

That means the Kingdom has no borders!

So its the SPIRITUAL Kingdom obviously.

Come on, you know Jerusalem / Zionism is the Whore of Babylon. We've established that.

Connect the dots Jason. Look at the need for Christian zionists to keep hammering into people that the State of Isreal is the big important kingdom and try to make us forget about the SPIRITUAL Kingdom of Isreal which includes all believers.

Are you going to abide in this delusion or are you going to "come out of her"?

uh no that isnt what they asked. they asked about the restoration, read the verse in proper exegesis.

i know that the lord will reign over all the earth, and i accept that, but that doenst mean he cant or wont apportion lots to the jews.

read the parables and you see that he rewarded cities to the faithful.

now then reconcile this for me

zechariah 14:9 (you read and tell me)
the verses in revalation on new jerusalem where it is. our kingdom is a physical one on earth when its all said and done..


i believe the jews repent when they see the abonamation of desolation.

then what do you make of the prophecy spoken of in zechariah14 and that was written after the exile, so it can be about then. as its a prophecy not a rehash. the lord would rise up agianst jerusalem and yet he fights for them in the next verse. interesting.

link to the time frame ezekiel was written?

http://bible.org/article/introduction-book-zechariah



read revalation 11:7 to 13. lookie here some of the jews repented. interesting

then what of ezekiel 37? the vision of the bones? he was in exile when that happened

let's see what of these verses? zechariah 8:7;8.
proper exegesis requires the audience to be taken into account there. and that was to the temple rebuilding hebrews. its both now (then) and in the future(few nations have sought the city of jersusalem for wisdom)

oh and another lookie here zechariah twelve.

man you got some splaining to do. he takes those repenting jews back and what attacks the nations that attacked the city in the last days.

so how can that be if God is done with isreal?

 

[Bazz1040]

so let me get this right, we dont have to repent, nor actually be told about the lord? that even though we sin, we have no worries as we are already forgiven?

am i correct to assume that men of all faiths dont need jesus?

You are putting words in my mouth. A person does not have to repent to be forgiven. Were the people that crucified Jesus forgiven when Jesus said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"?

 

[jasoncran]

ah yes they do, we have to ask the lord to to forgive us.

what does this verse mean to you from acts 16:31 believe on the lord Jesus christ, and thou shall be saved, and thy house

and in addition romans 10:9 to 11.
its says that we must do something here. confess, what is the confession.

the lord asked those that crucified him and funny peter in acts told them they need to what repent,

see acts 2:17 to verse 38, and notice this part" Repent and be baptised every one of you" so then i guess peter was lying then or was the lord? does the bible contradict itself?

we have accept the lord's blood and change our ways, meaning that we acknowledge our sins and then act accordingly and pray for the power to stop sinning. The lord will answer that.