The Israelis Survived

[jasoncran]

The geographical location of Jerusalem is God's beloved place. No-one is denying that. But no promises are given to any group of people other than those that accept Jesus as saviour.

Jerusalem is sacred. But the people there commit whoredoms. They are an abomination in His eyes.

you do realise that in revalation 20:5 that the two witnesses die and come back to life and many repent.

 

[Strangelove]

The Nations of the Earth will send delegates or representatives to Jerusalem, where Jesus and His glorified brothers and sisters are. The house of Zion is speaking of the saints of God.....it is they that will be established on top of the Nations or rule over them as it says in another verse.


I submit to you that there is not scripture that tells us that we will live in Heaven. Jesus is temporarily in Heaven. He is temporarily sitting on His Father's throne. But His throne will be on the Earth. Jesus said that those that overcome will sit with Him on His throne, just as He overcame and sit down on His Father’s throne. So the throne that Jesus is on right now is the Father’s throne. The Bible tells us that the Messiah (Jesus) would rule on the throne of His father David. And where was David's throne? It was on the Earth.

No problem Big Bazz. AFTER the New Earth is come of course Jesus and God the Father will dwell with us on our level. I was just saying that the "action" part of Revelation doesn't involve Christ coming down on Earth....thass'all.

 

[edwin]

It is not wise to believe that you will get all the information on a subject in one place in the Bible, that is why we are suppose to study the entire Bible and not just certain parts of it.

There are many place in the Bible (mostly in the Old Testament) that show us that Jesus and His brothers and sisters will be living on the Earth. Remember that Jesus said that the meek will inherit the Earth, not Heaven.

I don't have the time right now to show you all the scriptures but here is another example. Notice the word "He" in the verse.

Isaiah 2:1-5 (ASV)
1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2 And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem.
4 And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of Jehovah.


The Nations of the Earth will send delegates or representatives to Jerusalem, where Jesus and His glorified brothers and sisters are. The house of Zion is speaking of the saints of God.....it is they that will be established on top of the Nations or rule over them as it says in another verse.

I submit to you that there is not scripture that tells us that we will live in Heaven. Jesus is temporarily in Heaven. He is temporarily sitting on His Father's throne. But His throne will be on the Earth. Jesus said that those that overcome will sit with Him on His throne, just as He overcame and sit down on His Father’s throne. So the throne that Jesus is on right now is the Father’s throne. The Bible tells us that the Messiah (Jesus) would rule on the throne of His father David. And where was David's throne? It was on the Earth.

Now you really have me confused. You have stated that the New Covenant replaces the Mosaic one (ie Hebrews said it was decaying and ready to vanish away). However, the passage you quoted from Isaiah which both Jewish and Christian scholars acknowledge and accept to be a messianic prophecy says that the Torah will go forth from Zion כִּי מִצִּיּוֹן תֵּצֵא (torah).תוֹרָה,.

Now what, in essence is the Torah- it is the Book of the Mosaic Covenant-

7 And he took the book of the covenant, וַיִּקַּח סֵפֶר הַבְּרִית,(sefer ha'brit) and read in the hearing of the people..

Jeremiah tells us as well in the messianic age the Torah will be placed in men's hearts. So if this Mosaic covenant is no longer required why are the prophets confirming its veracity and importance to the nations of the world in the messianic era?

 

[Bazz1040]

Now you really have me confused. You have stated that the New Covenant replaces the Mosaic one (ie Hebrews said it was decaying and ready to vanish away). However, the passage you quoted from Isaiah which both Jewish and Christian scholars acknowledge and accept to be a messianic prophecy says that the Torah will go forth from Zion כִּי מִצִּיּוֹן תֵּצֵא (torah).תוֹרָה,.

Now what, in essence is the Torah- it is the Book of the Mosaic Covenant-

7 And he took the book of the covenant, וַיִּקַּח סֵפֶר הַבְּרִית,(sefer ha'brit) and read in the hearing of the people..

Jeremiah tells us as well in the messianic age the Torah will be placed in men's hearts. So if this Mosaic covenant is no longer required why are the prophets confirming its veracity and importance to the nations of the world in the messianic era?

I for one do not believe that it is the Torah. You see just because it says the law does not mean that it is talking about the torah or the Old Covenant. Jesus is King of kings and the saints are those kings, and whatever a king says IS law. So the Nations will go up to Jerusalem to inquire and they will be told how to live in harmony with God and each other.

 

[edwin]

I for one do not believe that it is the Torah. You see just because it says the law does not mean that it is talking about the torah or the Old Covenant. Jesus is King of kings and the saints are those kings, and whatever a king says IS law. So the Nations will go up to Jerusalem to inquire and they will be told how to live in harmony with God and each other.

Give me a break!

Jeremiah 31:32 – "For this is the covenant that I shall form with the House of Israel after those days," says the L-rd, "I will place My Torah [

(torati)] within them, and I will inscribe it upon their heart; and I will be their G-d and they shall be a people for Me." The Torah IS God's law!

Jeremiah uses the word "Torah" in various forms on 11 occasions, and in all these cases the application is in the context of the Torah. The KJB also translates these instances in form of "my/his law" in reference to the Eternal- clearly this is the Mosaic law. God tells us in the Tanakh over and over that His Torah is eternal- and you are stating that in your opinion it's probably some OTHER divine set of laws????

 

[jasoncran]

Give me a break!

Jeremiah 31:32 – "For this is the covenant that I shall form with the House of Israel after those days," says the L-rd, "I will place My Torah [

(torati)] within them, and I will inscribe it upon their heart; and I will be their G-d and they shall be a people for Me." The Torah IS God's law!

Jeremiah uses the word "Torah" in various forms on 11 occasions, and in all these cases the application is in the context of the Torah. The KJB also translates these instances in form of "my/his law" in reference to the Eternal- clearly this is the Mosaic law. God tells us in the Tanakh over and over that His Torah is eternal- and you are stating that in your opinion it's probably some OTHER divine set of laws????

didnt jesus fufill the law? do the gentiles need to follow the law? see acts 15 for that.

are you a jew or isrealite. i am of that line.

 

[Bazz1040]

Give me a break!

Jeremiah 31:32 – "For this is the covenant that I shall form with the House of Israel after those days," says the L-rd, "I will place My Torah [

(torati)] within them, and I will inscribe it upon their heart; and I will be their G-d and they shall be a people for Me." The Torah IS God's law!

Jeremiah uses the word "Torah" in various forms on 11 occasions, and in all these cases the application is in the context of the Torah. The KJB also translates these instances in form of "my/his law" in reference to the Eternal- clearly this is the Mosaic law. God tells us in the Tanakh over and over that His Torah is eternal- and you are stating that in your opinion it's probably some OTHER divine set of laws????

You see by omitting the verse that comes before verse 32 is gives a false impression that it is saying what you are saying it is saying.

Here is the verse, including verse 31.

Notice that it says a NEW COVENANT. Then in verse 32 it says that new covenant will not be according to the covenant that He made with their fathers when He took them out of Egypt. One could say that new covenant or Torah is the New Testament book/covenant/law and not the Old Testament book/torah/law.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 (KJV)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[Strangelove]

You see by omitting the verse that comes before verse 32 is gives a false impression that it is saying what you are saying it is saying.

Here is the verse, including verse 31.

Notice that it says a NEW COVENANT. Then in verse 32 it says that new covenant will not be according to the covenant that He made with their fathers when He took them out of Egypt. One could say that new covenant or Torah is the New Testament book/covenant/law and not the Old Testament book/torah/law.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 (KJV)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Right on Bazz....

Um...Edwin....I notice your new here. We had a big thread recently talking about old law and how we are not bound by it. It took us two weeks to break down the resistance of the judaizers and kill the thread....and now look what we have....fresh blood trying to take us back to the old law.

Do you realise that you are tempting the wrath of God by suggesting such things? By banging the OT drum?

Does the Apostle Paul's CONSTANT warnings mean nothing to you at all?

Or are you in fact jewish?

2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be
justified.​

We are justified by Grace through faith in Jesus. Good works are a natural fruit of walking in Jesus' loving commandments.We dont need Torah written law anymore. It is finished. That was the point of the cross.​

Regards,​

Doc.​

 

[Bazz1040]

Right on Bazz....

Um...Edwin....I notice your new here. We had a big thread recently talking about old law and how we are not bound by it. It took us two weeks to break down the resistance of the judaizers and kill the thread....and now look what we have....fresh blood trying to take us back to the old law.

Do you realise that you are tempting the wrath of God by suggesting such things? By banging the OT drum?

Does the Apostle Paul's CONSTANT warnings mean nothing to you at all?

Or are you in fact jewish?

2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be
justified.​

We are justifies by Grace through faith in Jesus. Good works are a natural fruit of walking in Jesus' loving commandments.We dont need Torah written law anymore. It is finished. That was the point of the cross.​

Regards,​

Doc.​

It was God's intention to create beings like Himself that do not need a law to tell them what is right from what is wrong, and have the Nature and Character that does the right thing all the time.

 

[Strangelove]

It was God's intention to create beings like Himself that do not need a law to tell them what is right from what is wrong, and have the Nature and Character that does the right thing all the time.

Amen Bazz.

God bless you Sir.

 

[edwin]

You see by omitting the verse that comes before verse 32 is gives a false impression that it is saying what you are saying it is saying.

Here is the verse, including verse 31.

Notice that it says a NEW COVENANT. Then in verse 32 it says that new covenant will not be according to the covenant that He made with their fathers when He took them out of Egypt. One could say that new covenant or Torah is the New Testament book/covenant/law and not the Old Testament book/torah/law.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 (KJV)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

If God wanted to change the Torah he would have had Jeremiah refer to a New Torah but he didnt. He refers over and over to the Torah-the statutes and commandments orginally given at Sinai. A careful reading of Jeremiah indicates the prophet is talking about a renewal of the sinai covenant. Why is it "new"? The only difference between the two covenants is where the sefer ha'brit resides. At sinai, it was placed in the mouths of Israel-" And it shall be to you as a sign upon your hand and as a remembrance between your eyes, in order that the law of the Lord shall be in your mouth, for with a mighty hand the Lord took you out of Egypt."

In the messianic era however the Torah will be placed in the hearts of man and will become an integral part of their existence-" For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people."

Let me conclude with another question. Jeremiah states that there will be universal recognition and acceptance of the God of Israel in those "days". Does that condition exist today? If it does, why are Christian missionaries still spending millions of dollars every year trying to spread the good news of their beliefs?

 

[Bazz1040]

If God wanted to change the Torah he would have had Jeremiah refer to a New Torah but he didnt. He refers over and over to the Torah-the statutes and commandments orginally given at Sinai. A careful reading of Jeremiah indicates the prophet is talking about a renewal of the sinai covenant. Why is it "new"? The only difference between the two covenants is where the sefer ha'brit resides. At sinai, it was placed in the mouths of Israel-" And it shall be to you as a sign upon your hand and as a remembrance between your eyes, in order that the law of the Lord shall be in your mouth, for with a mighty hand the Lord took you out of Egypt."

New means new. If I took an old bag that I had outside and placed it in my house it would still be an old bag. Changing the location does not make it new.

Let me conclude with another question. Jeremiah states that there will be universal recognition and acceptance of the God of Israel in those "days". Does that condition exist today? If it does, why are Christian missionaries still spending millions of dollars every year trying to spread the good news of their beliefs?

It is a prophecy of how it will be after Jesus returns.

 

[edwin]

New means new. If I took an old bag that I had outside and placed it in my house it would still be an old bag. Changing the location does not make it new.





It is a prophecy of how it will be after Jesus returns.

The problem with your analogy is that we are not dealing with a material object like a bag. We are speaking about something intangible. In the Hebrew Bible God says that He will not break His covenant with Israel and that the sefer ha'brit, ie the book of the Covenant, the Torah, which codifies that covenant is also, forever.

You cannot refute the fact that the prophet talks about real events that are to happen in "those days". Those "days", by your perspective happened 2000 years ago. Look around. Is there worldwide peace, ingathering of the House of Israel and the House of Judah, universal recognition and acceptance of the God of Israel? Not one of these things have occurred. You must rely on the Christian invention of the second (actually third) coming of Jesus to justify your position. If that's your belief-you are entitled to it. However there is no scriptural basis in the Hebrew Bible for the messiah to come a second or third time before these events are ushered in.

 

[Bazz1040]

The problem with your analogy is that we are not dealing with a material object like a bag. We are speaking about something intangible.

A thing does not have to be tangible for it to be old.....an idea can be old if a better one comes about.

In the Hebrew Bible God says that He will not break His covenant with Israel and that the sefer ha'brit, ie the book of the Covenant, the Torah, which codifies that covenant is also, forever.

That Covenant have been broken by Israel many many times over. And once one side reneges on their side of agreement it becomes null and void. Also death makes a Covenant or agreement null and void. Jesus was the God of the Old Testament and once He died, He was no longer under any obligation to continue that Covenant.

You cannot refute the fact that the prophet talks about real events that are to happen in "those days". Those "days", by your perspective happened 2000 years ago. Look around. Is there worldwide peace, ingathering of the House of Israel and the House of Judah, universal recognition and acceptance of the God of Israel? Not one of these things have occurred. You must rely on the Christian invention of the second (actually third) coming of Jesus to justify your position. If that's your belief-you are entitled to it. However there is no scriptural basis in the Hebrew Bible for the messiah to come a second or third time before these events are ushered in.

Like I said before, these things will take place after Jesus return. And I never said that Jesus would return more than once.

 

[Theofilus]

That Covenant have been broken by Israel many many times over. And once one side reneges on their side of agreement it becomes null and void. Also death makes a Covenant or agreement null and void. Jesus was the God of the Old Testament and once He died, He was no longer under any obligation to continue that Covenant.

Let God be found true, though every man be found a liar (Rom. 3:4 NASB)​

No matter how many times we break our promises, God will always keep His. Even though we disobey the requirements of the covenants, God will always keep His part. If He say's it's eternal, it is.

Here's something for everyone to think about. God said that the "Old" Covenant was eternal, yet most Christians today say that it has been abolished, either because the Jews didn't or even couldn't keep it or because God replaced it with a new and better covenant. If that's true - if God can just change His mind and say "I've decided to do things differently. Now there's a new way of salvation and anyone who follows My previous instructions is eternally lost" - then how do you know He won't do the same with the New Covenant? In fact, how do we know He hasn't already done that and that Islam or the Bahai faith or something else isn't what we should be following? If God's eternal covenants aren't eternal after all, then we have no assurance of salvation at all.

 

[edwin]

A thing does not have to be tangible for it to be old.....an idea can be old if a better one comes about.





That Covenant have been broken by Israel many many times over. And once one side reneges on their side of agreement it becomes null and void. Also death makes a Covenant or agreement null and void. Jesus was the God of the Old Testament and once He died, He was no longer under any obligation to continue that Covenant.

"Jesus was the God of the Old Testament"



Like I said before, these things will take place after Jesus return. And I never said that Jesus would return more than once.

The Hebrew Bible teaches that, although the people of Israel often fell short of fulfilling their end of the agreement made at Mount Sinai and, in effect, broke the covenant, G-d has stated on many occasions that He will not break His covenant with Israel:
Leviticus 26:44-45 – (44) And despite all this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not despise them nor will I reject them to annihilate them, thereby breaking My covenant with them; for I am the L-rd their G-d. (45) And I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt before the eyes of the nations, to be a G-d to them; I am the L-rd.

Judges 2:1 - And an angel of the L-rd came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said [in G-d's name], "I will bring you up from Egypt, and I have brought you to the land which I swore to your forefathers, and I said, 'I will never break My covenant with you.'"

Ezekiel 16:59-60 – (59) For thus said the L-rd G-d [to Jerusalem]: "I have done with you in accordance to that which you have done, that you have despised an oath in breaking a covenant. (60) Nevertheless I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish with you an everlasting covenant.

Psalms 105:8-10 – (8) He has remembered His covenant forever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations. (9) That which He had made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac; (10) And He established it for Jacob as a law, and for Israel as an everlasting covenant;


You have stated your opinion- but scripture says you are wrong. God's covenant with Israel is eternal and so is His Torah.



Wrt to your statement about Jesus being the God of the Old Testament that would require another thread to discuss. Are you game?

 

[Bazz1040]

Let God be found true, though every man be found a liar (Rom. 3:4 NASB)
​

No matter how many times we break our promises, God will always keep His. Even though we disobey the requirements of the covenants, God will always keep His part. If He say's it's eternal, it is.

Just like I said before; when one party in an agreement break the agreement it becomes null and void. It does not mean that the other party broke the agreement. So in the same way, when Israel broke their side it was made null and void. So once they did that God was not obligated to do what He said, because His fulfillment was dependent on them fulfilling their part.

Here are a few examples. Notice the IF in each of God's promise.


Exodus 19:5-6 (ESV)
5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine;
6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel."
Deuteronomy 11:13-17 (ESV)
13 "And if you will indeed obey my commandments that I command you today, to love the Lord your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
14 he will give the rain for your land in its season, the early rain and the later rain, that you may gather in your grain and your wine and your oil.
15 And he will give grass in your fields for your livestock, and you shall eat and be full.
16 Take care lest your heart be deceived, and you turn aside and serve other gods and worship them;
17 then the anger of the Lord will be kindled against you, and he will shut up the heavens, so that there will be no rain, and the land will yield no fruit, and you will perish quickly off the good land that the Lord is giving you.
Leviticus 20:22-24 (GW)
22 “If you carefully obey all my laws and my rules, the land I am bringing you to live in will not vomit you out.
23 Never follow the practices of the people I am forcing out of your way. I cannot stand them because they did all these things.
24 I have told you that you will take their land. I will give it to you as your own. It is a land flowing with milk and honey. I am the Lord your God who separated you from other people.

Here's something for everyone to think about. God said that the "Old" Covenant was eternal, yet most Christians today say that it has been abolished, either because the Jews didn't or even couldn't keep it or because God replaced it with a new and better covenant. If that's true - if God can just change His mind and say "I've decided to do things differently. Now there's a new way of salvation and anyone who follows My previous instructions is eternally lost" - then how do you know He won't do the same with the New Covenant? In fact, how do we know He hasn't already done that and that Islam or the Bahai faith or something else isn't what we should be following? If God's eternal covenants aren't eternal after all, then we have no assurance of salvation at all.

Could you be more specific and provide a scripture or two, please?

The Hebrew Bible teaches that, although the people of Israel often fell short of fulfilling their end of the agreement made at Mount Sinai and, in effect, broke the covenant, G-d has stated on many occasions that He will not break His covenant with Israel:
Leviticus 26:44-45 – (44) And despite all this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not despise them nor will I reject them to annihilate them, thereby breaking My covenant with them; for I am the L-rd their G-d. (45) And I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt before the eyes of the nations, to be a G-d to them; I am the L-rd.

Judges 2:1 - And an angel of the L-rd came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said [in G-d's name], "I will bring you up from Egypt, and I have brought you to the land which I swore to your forefathers, and I said, 'I will never break My covenant with you.'"

Ezekiel 16:59-60 – (59) For thus said the L-rd G-d [to Jerusalem]: "I have done with you in accordance to that which you have done, that you have despised an oath in breaking a covenant. (60) Nevertheless I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish with you an everlasting covenant.

Psalms 105:8-10 – (8) He has remembered His covenant forever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations. (9) That which He had made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac; (10) And He established it for Jacob as a law, and for Israel as an everlasting covenant;



You have stated your opinion- but scripture says you are wrong. God's covenant with Israel is eternal and so is His Torah.

Sure God did not, but Israel did and once they did God was not obligated to do what He said He would do IF they did what they agreed to do.

Wrt to your statement about Jesus being the God of the Old Testament that would require another thread to discuss. Are you game?

If you like.

 

[edwin]

Sure God did not, but Israel did and once they did God was not obligated to do what He said He would do IF they did what they agreed to do.






.

Scripture (ie God) tells us what He does and does not do. I know we all feel assured now that YOU have told us what God's obligations are.;)

 

[Bazz1040]

Scripture (ie God) tells us what He does and does not do. I know we all feel assured now that YOU have told us what God's obligations are.;)

I only showed you what God said. It may not be what you are taught but it is very clear from scripture that God told them what He would do IF they did certain things. This means that if they disobeyed God by doing things that they should not do then the agreement is broken.

You don't see what I am saying now but one day you will, then you will remember and realise that I was telling you the truth.

 

[Strangelove]

Let God be found true, though every man be found a liar (Rom. 3:4 NASB)
​

No matter how many times we break our promises, God will always keep His. Even though we disobey the requirements of the covenants, God will always keep His part. If He say's it's eternal, it is.

Here's something for everyone to think about. God said that the "Old" Covenant was eternal, yet most Christians today say that it has been abolished, either because the Jews didn't or even couldn't keep it or because God replaced it with a new and better covenant. If that's true - if God can just change His mind and say "I've decided to do things differently. Now there's a new way of salvation and anyone who follows My previous instructions is eternally lost" - then how do you know He won't do the same with the New Covenant? In fact, how do we know He hasn't already done that and that Islam or the Bahai faith or something else isn't what we should be following? If God's eternal covenants aren't eternal after all, then we have no assurance of salvation at all.

How do we know?

Because Jesus said...."It..........is..........FINISHED"

Do you believe Christs words Theo?

Have you read the NT?

Do you even believe He is the Son of God?