The Israelis Survived

[Strangelove]

There would be no need for a new covenant if the old one was faultless.
There would be no need for a new Jerusalem if the old one was faultless.
There would be no need for us to be a new creature if the old one was faultless.

Right on Sissy.

I mean....helloooooooooo??

Does this make sense to everyone.

It's pretty simple eh?

 

[Bazz1040]

its best that they do, as that shows them that they were a sinner and in need of a savior.

It is important to understand that repentance must be granted by God to the individual. A person cannot repent on their own because the natural mind is not only blind but is hostile to God. So people who have not repented even when they die are not condemned but will be resurrected at some latter time and have their mind open.

that has to happen in order to get to heaven. we have to vomit that sin up.

And by the way, Heaven was never promise to us, but the Earth is and will be our home forever. Jesus said, the meek will inherit the Earth.

 

[jasoncran]

i know that but its a habit as most do believe that heaven is a temporary home.

in the adam was made to sin debate your in . i was going to mention to savedbygrace this verse

matthew 5:5 the meek shall inherit the earth.

kinda hard to inherit the earth as a spirit.

 

[Bazz1040]

i know that but its a habit as most do believe that heaven is a temporary home.

in the adam was made to sin debate your in . i was going to mention to savedbygrace this verse

matthew 5:5 the meek shall inherit the earth.

kinda hard to inherit the earth as a spirit.

It's not even a temporary home either, but that I guess is for another topic.

 

[jasoncran]

read revalation after its states the beheaded persons that are in white. then tell me where John is when he sees that. it aint on the earth.


so paul was wrong said in thessaloians that we will be caught up in the air to meet the lord? the dead in christ shall rise first then those that are alive shall meet him in the air and be with him forever evermore.

 

[zone]

Your point is noted, however Israel actually ceased to exist as a nation in 70 A.D. when the Romans sacked Jerusalem, and had not been a nation for nearly 2000 years until 1948 when it was recreated. It is this fact which is noteworthy, and which also has bearing on illuminating/fulfilling Old Testament prophecy. Israel has since won many wars against nearly insurmountable odds from surrounding hostile nations (in 1948, 1967, 1973, etc.). Your comparison of China is not exactly parallel because China never ceased to exist as a country (much less for nearly 2000 years), although its regimes changed over time just like any nation's.

Just pointing that out.

~Josh

hi josh
insurmountable odds?
they had britain and the US technology, money, intelligence and support.

 

[zone]

i know that but its a habit as most do believe that heaven is a temporary home.

in the adam was made to sin debate your in . i was going to mention to savedbygrace this verse

matthew 5:5 the meek shall inherit the earth.

kinda hard to inherit the earth as a spirit.

huh?
Jesus's body was GLORIFIED.
He said it was flesh and bone.
we too will receive GLORIFIED bodies.

 

[zone]

read revalation after its states the beheaded persons that are in white. then tell me where John is when he sees that. it aint on the earth.


so paul was wrong said in thessaloians that we will be caught up in the air to meet the lord? the dead in christ shall rise first then those that are alive shall meet him in the air and be with him forever evermore.

john was taken forward in time (by the spirit) TO THE LORD'S DAY and shown things on earth, in heaven, on earth, in heaven, on earth, in heaven and so on.

 

[edwin]

That scripture was posted before you presented your questions; I just cut and paste a portion of it again because you ignored it to first time.

I presume you are referring to post 53 which, in fact, I did read. It sounds as if you are saying that the House of Israel is referring to the gentiles who eventually came under the covenant of the cross, but this is just your opinion- it is not scriptural. As I have previously stated both Jeremiah and Ezekiel refer to two historically based and biblically based Houses of the Israelites, ie those descendants of the nation of Israel who stood at Mt Sinai and received the sinaitic/mosaic covenant which is eternal. However, God through his prophets is saying that in the messianic age He will restore both Houses and there will be an ingathered restored nation of Israel

19 Then say to them, This is what the Lord has said: See, I am taking the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel who are in his company; and I will put it on the stick of Judah and make them one stick, and they will be one in my hand.

Ezekiel 37:34 states that "my servant David" ie the Mashiach will be a king over them. This is the messianic agenda- it never happened 2000 years ago. More about the "new" covenant when I have more time.

 

[jasoncran]

john was taken forward in time (by the spirit) TO THE LORD'S DAY and shown things on earth, in heaven, on earth, in heaven, on earth, in heaven and so on.

i know the book of revalation quite well. i wanted bazz to answer.

the glorified body is correct but it after the millenial reign, read the chapter 20.

and sl. if jersusalem is done then why the reference to as the beloved city which is defended by the Lord when satan finally attacks it?

 

[Bazz1040]

I presume you are referring to post 53 which, in fact, I did read. It sounds as if you are saying that the House of Israel is referring to the gentiles who eventually came under the covenant of the cross, but this is just your opinion- it is not scriptural. As I have previously stated both Jeremiah and Ezekiel refer to two historically based and biblically based Houses of the Israelites, ie those descendants of the nation of Israel who stood at Mt Sinai and received the sinaitic/mosaic covenant which is eternal. However, God through his prophets is saying that in the messianic age He will restore both Houses and there will be an ingathered restored nation of Israel

19 Then say to them, This is what the Lord has said: See, I am taking the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel who are in his company; and I will put it on the stick of Judah and make them one stick, and they will be one in my hand.

Ezekiel 37:34 states that "my servant David" ie the Mashiach will be a king over them. This is the messianic agenda- it never happened 2000 years ago. More about the "new" covenant when I have more time.

I don't know why you got the idea that I was saying the house of Israel is referring to the gentiles.....I never even hinted that.

Those prophecies that you quoted above will come under the New Covenant.

 

[Bazz1040]

read revalation after its states the beheaded persons that are in white. then tell me where John is when he sees that. it aint on the earth.R

Much of Revelation is in symbolic language and should not be taken literally.

so paul was wrong said in thessaloians that we will be caught up in the air to meet the lord? the dead in christ shall rise first then those that are alive shall meet him in the air and be with him forever evermore.

No Paul was not, but after the saints’ rise up to me Jesus in the air they and Jesus will descend to the ground on mount olive.

Zechariah 14:1-5 (Darby)
1 Behold, the day cometh for Jehovah, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 And I will assemble all the nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity; and the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 And Jehovah will go forth and fight with those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem toward the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,—a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee [by] the valley of my mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: ye shall even flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. And Jehovah my God shall come, [and] all the holy ones with thee.

 

[Bazz1040]

huh?
Jesus's body was GLORIFIED.
He said it was flesh and bone.
we too will receive GLORIFIED bodies.

Some fail to realize that Jesus went to Heaven with His New Glorified body, and will come back to the Earth, the same way He went as the angel told the disciples.

 

[jasoncran]

uh no. that is symbolism has a meaning and that is too be intepreted.

much of the bible is that way.

genesis has parts. joseph's coat of many colors is referenced in revalation.

so does deuteromony the way that isreal is to line up with the tabernacle, and that also is the symbols of the 4 living creatures.

so we arent to die for the lord? really. the event you refer to ,ironically, is a confirmation of what edwin is saying. and so am i.

reconcile this as we are reserected and given physical bodies after the millenium. revelation 20:5 and interesting those beheaded are living with christ for a thousand yrs on earth.

read the next few verses. the saints that didnt die arent there in the millenium. I need to revisit that. never saw that before.

ezekiel has visions and sees the same things that are symbolised in revalation and also the gospel follow that pattern.

the bear, the eagle, the lion, the man are what i am refering to. read up on the 4 living creatures as those symbols also are part of the nature of the lord.

 

[edwin]

I don't know why you got the idea that I was saying the house of Israel is referring to the gentiles.....I never even hinted that.

Those prophecies that you quoted above will come under the New Covenant.

Bottom line: What you have put forward is that Jer 31 is a messianic prophecy about the covenant of the cross, ie Jesus crucifixtion which takes away the sins of the world. This event took place in the first century C.E. You have further posited that this covenant supersedes the obsolete mosaic covenant between God and the children of Israel which was enunciated at Sinai. But as I pointed out, none of things that Jeremiah speaks about took place in that time. They still have not taken place although some might argue with the re-establishment of the state of Israel after nearly 2000 years, we may be witnessing the start of the ingathering of the Jewish people. Ezekiel and Jeremiah talk about the restoration and ingathering of a re-united Jewish nation and the UNIVERSAL knowledge of the God of Israel-under King Mashiach. There is no reference in the Hebrew Bible of the advent of the messiah and then a 2000 year hiatus when he comes again to fulfill the prophecies in Jeremiah and Ezekiel. ;)

Btw, this would be Jesus third coming not his second- how many chances does he get?

 

[Bazz1040]

uh no. that is symbolism has a meaning and that is too be intepreted.


much of the bible is that way.

I did not say it does not have meaning. Obviously if it’s symbolic it means something.

genesis has parts. joseph's coat of many colors is referenced in revalation.

Would you mind showing what scripture in Revelation that mentions Joseph’s coat?

reconcile this as we are reserected and given physical bodies after the millenium..

My friend, the saints will receive a glorified body in the twinkling of an eye, at Jesus' second coming, not a thousand years later.

revelation 20:5 and interesting those beheaded are living with christ for a thousand yrs on earth.

read the next few verses. the saints that didnt die arent there in the millenium. I need to revisit that. never saw that before.

All of God people whether they were martyred for Jesus or died a natural death or are alive when Jesus returns will be changed or resurrected and ascend to meet Jesus in the air together.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (ASV)
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (ASV) 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Revelation 20:5 is referring to non believers that have died from the time of Adam right up to Jesus' return. Jesus also mentioned it when He was scolding the Pharisees (Matthew 12:42). It is also mentioned in Ezekiel 37:3-28 in reference to the House of Israel.

 

[Bazz1040]

Bottom line: What you have put forward is that Jer 31 is a messianic prophecy about the covenant of the cross, ie Jesus crucifixtion which takes away the sins of the world. This event took place in the first century C.E. You have further posited that this covenant supersedes the obsolete mosaic covenant between God and the children of Israel which was enunciated at Sinai. But as I pointed out, none of things that Jeremiah speaks about took place in that time. They still have not taken place although some might argue with the re-establishment of the state of Israel after nearly 2000 years, we may be witnessing the start of the ingathering of the Jewish people. Ezekiel and Jeremiah talk about the restoration and ingathering of a re-united Jewish nation and the UNIVERSAL knowledge of the God of Israel-under King Mashiach. There is no reference in the Hebrew Bible of the advent of the messiah and then a 2000 year hiatus when he comes again to fulfill the prophecies in Jeremiah and Ezekiel. ;)

Btw, this would be Jesus third coming not his second- how many chances does he get?

It has not taken place because it is to happen after Jesus returns.

 

[Strangelove]

and sl. if jersusalem is done then why the reference to as the beloved city which is defended by the Lord when satan finally attacks it?

The geographical location of Jerusalem is God's beloved place. No-one is denying that. But no promises are given to any group of people other than those that accept Jesus as saviour.

Jerusalem is sacred. But the people there commit whoredoms. They are an abomination in His eyes.

 

[Strangelove]

No Paul was not, but after the saints’ rise up to me Jesus in the air they and Jesus will descend to the ground on mount olive.

Zechariah 14:1-5 (Darby)
1 Behold, the day cometh for Jehovah, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 And I will assemble all the nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity; and the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 And Jehovah will go forth and fight with those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem toward the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,—a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee [by] the valley of my mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: ye shall even flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. And Jehovah my God shall come, [and] all the holy ones with thee.

Hold on Bazzmeister....

Why cant that Zechariah verse be talking about the first coming of Christ?

Theres nothing in Revelation about Jesus physically touching down on Earth.

Theres only this:

14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.

And that's clearly talking metaphorically because as you read on Jesus continues to be on a cloud and in the air for the remainder of Revelation. Everything happens in the air. Theres no talk of him mingling with humans down here on Earth.

I May be wrong but theres no reason to think Jesus will physically touch down on Terra-Firma when He comes back. Especially not from reading Revelation which is the "playbook" to the second coming.

Doc.
​

 

[Bazz1040]

Hold on Bazzmeister....

Why cant that Zechariah verse be talking about the first coming of Christ?

Theres nothing in Revelation about Jesus physically touching down on Earth.

Theres only this:

14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.​

And that's clearly talking metaphorically because as you read on Jesus continues to be on a cloud and in the air for the remainder of Revelation. Everything happens in the air. Theres no talk of him mingling with humans down here on Earth.​

I May be wrong but theres no reason to think Jesus will physically touch down on Terra-Firma when He comes back. Especially not from reading Revelation which is the "playbook" to the second coming.​

Doc.​

It is not wise to believe that you will get all the information on a subject in one place in the Bible, that is why we are suppose to study the entire Bible and not just certain parts of it.

There are many place in the Bible (mostly in the Old Testament) that show us that Jesus and His brothers and sisters will be living on the Earth. Remember that Jesus said that the meek will inherit the Earth, not Heaven.

I don't have the time right now to show you all the scriptures but here is another example. Notice the word "He" in the verse.

Isaiah 2:1-5 (ASV)
1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2 And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem.
4 And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of Jehovah.


The Nations of the Earth will send delegates or representatives to Jerusalem, where Jesus and His glorified brothers and sisters are. The house of Zion is speaking of the saints of God.....it is they that will be established on top of the Nations or rule over them as it says in another verse.

I submit to you that there is not scripture that tells us that we will live in Heaven. Jesus is temporarily in Heaven. He is temporarily sitting on His Father's throne. But His throne will be on the Earth. Jesus said that those that overcome will sit with Him on His throne, just as He overcame and sit down on His Father’s throne. So the throne that Jesus is on right now is the Father’s throne. The Bible tells us that the Messiah (Jesus) would rule on the throne of His father David. And where was David's throne? It was on the Earth.