The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[for_his_glory]

Here is my question, how can hell be the lake of fire if it is cast into it,
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[FreeGrace]

Did you read what I wrote? I wasn't giving my thoughts. The Bible states plainly that the dead have no thoughts.

And I cited Scripture that refutes your opinion about what the Bible "states plainly".

So, either there's a contradiction in Scripture or you're understanding of these passages is flawed.

I claim the same for you.

Luke 16 is a judgment against Israel.

The story about Lazarus and the rich man??? Seriously?

If you do a serious, in depth study of the passage you'll see that there's a lot more going on here than you think. Regarding Samuel, The Scriptures tell us that Saul sought a demon.

Instead of an opinion, please cite a specific verse, since I'm very familiar with 1 Sam 28 and your claim is incorrect.

What's unreasonable is that you think this passage that speaks of a worm is the person.

I pointed out very clearly that the "worm" is THEIRS. iow, it belongs to those in torment.

You don't know the worm is but you know it's part of them?

I believe what the Bible says.
Isa 66:24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
Mark 9:47-48
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

I don't care what the worm is. I do believe that the worm belongs to those in hell. Because the Bible says so.

Really. Did you read the passage? What is in the fire burning with the worms are corpses. Corpses, not ghosts. Corpses are dead people, not ghosts.

I don't believe in ghosts, so don't patronize me about silliness. Where are the souls of those dead bodies?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Of course, the Bible uses figurative language and metaphors.
What do you think Jesus meant when He compared S&G to contemporary cities in Israel and said "it would be more bearable for S&G than" for the cities named?"

This is one of those questions that needs a thread of its own. I wouldn't want to answer this off the top of my head. I've looked at it before but it's been a while. You have to look at the sins of S&G, and the the offenses of those other cities. What exactly were they doing that was so bad it warranted a comparison to S&G?

There's a lot of symbolic language going on through out this talk of Hell. Weeping and gnashing of teeth. What exactly does that mean? What's the significance? And more importantly, what would the original audience understand by this? (no our understanding, theirs - we often put our cultural bent on statements as if they were written to us yesterday - a huge mistake).

From Rev 20:11-15 we know that all unbelievers will be judged on their deeds/works. Not for whether they will enter heaven or hell, but rather, how bearable it will be for them in the lake of fire.

We know from that passage that the only reason one will be cast into the lake of fire is for not possessing eternal life. (v.15)

 

[godsquadgeek]

No, it doesn''t. The Greek word is gehenna. The word 'hell' is also a translation for hades. They aren't the same.

no it's not Hell is not in the greek, it's an english word meaning that it's only used in our english translations, and translators used it in Mark 9:43 proving my point. Hell can be synonymous with gehennah, or hades. As I just proved.

New International Version
If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

New Living Translation
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It's better to enter eternal life with only one hand than to go into the unquenchable fires of hell with two hands.

English Standard Version
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

Berean Study Bible
If your hand causes you to fall into sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two hands and go into hell, into the unquenchable fire.

Berean Literal Bible
And if your hand should cause you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter into life crippled, than having two hands to go away into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire.

New American Standard Bible
"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,

King James Bible
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And if your hand causes your downfall, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than to have two hands and go to hell--the unquenchable fire,

International Standard Version
So if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It's better for you to enter life injured than to have two hands and go to hell, to the fire that cannot be put out.

NET Bible
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off! It is better for you to enter into life crippled than to have two hands and go into hell, to the unquenchable fire.

New Heart English Bible
If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off.[note: idiom meaning to stop doing a sin] It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having your two hands to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“If your hand causes subverts you, cut it off, for it is better for you that you enter the Life maimed, than when you have two hands, you would go to Gehenna.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"So if your hand causes you to lose your faith, cut it off! It is better for you to enter life disabled than to have two hands and go to hell, to the fire that cannot be put out.

New American Standard 1977
“And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,

Jubilee Bible 2000
And if thy hand causes thee to fall, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into life maimed than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that can never be quenched,

King James 2000 Bible
And if your hand offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

American King James Version
And if your hand offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

American Standard Version
And if thy hand cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed, rather than having thy two hands to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And if thy hand scandalize thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life, maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into unquenchable fire:

Darby Bible Translation
And if thy hand serve as a snare to thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having thy two hands to go away into hell, into the fire unquenchable;

English Revised Version
And if thy hand cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed, rather than having thy two hands to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire.

Webster's Bible Translation
And if thy hand causeth thee to fall into sin, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

 

[godsquadgeek]

Here is my question, how can hell be the lake of fire if it is cast into it,
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

if Jesus spoke english, it could very well be that Hades was thrown into Hell. As that is the exact word in greek in revelation 20:14. A temporal hell was thrown into the more permanent hell to be exact.

 

[Butch5]

Of course. Their bodies looked like a lion and eagle and bear and leopard (only with multiple heads and iron teeth. You’d have more Biblical support calling them lions and leopards than humans.

The first was like a lion and had the wings of an eagle. I was watching until its wings were plucked off, and it was lifted up from the earth and it was raised on its feet like a human, and a human heart was given to it. And look, another beast, a second one, looking like a bear. And it was raised up on one side and three tusks were in its mouth between its teeth, and so it was told, “Arise, eat much flesh!” After this I was watching and look, another beast like a leopard; it had four wings of a bird on its back, and the beast had four heads, and dominion was given to it. After this in the visions of the night I was looking and there was a fourth beast, terrifying and frightful and exceedingly strong, and it had great iron teeth, and it was devouring and crushing, and it stamped the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the other beasts that preceded it and it had ten horns . I was considering the horns, and look, another little horn came up among them, and three of the earlier horns were rooted out from before it, and there were eyes like the eyes of a human in this horn and also a mouth that was speaking boastfully.​

Daniel 7:4-8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Daniel 7:4-8&version=LEB

The point is they are more than just spirits. However, the beast has eyes like a man and speaks.

 

[Butch5]

And I cited Scripture that refutes your opinion about what the Bible "states plainly".


I claim the same for you.


The story about Lazarus and the rich man??? Seriously?


Instead of an opinion, please cite a specific verse, since I'm very familiar with 1 Sam 28 and your claim is incorrect.


I pointed out very clearly that the "worm" is THEIRS. iow, it belongs to those in torment.


I believe what the Bible says.
Isa 66:24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
Mark 9:47-48
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

I don't care what the worm is. I do believe that the worm belongs to those in hell. Because the Bible says so.


I don't believe in ghosts, so don't patronize me about silliness. Where are the souls of those dead bodies?

As I said in the first post. Our past discussions have been fruitless. This one seems to be headed the same way. You simply disagree with whatever is presented without explaining why.

 

[Butch5]

Here is my question, how can hell be the lake of fire if it is cast into it,
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

I think Christians should get away from using the word hell. It's an English word and the way it's understood today is not a Biblical concept/ What is cast into the Lake of Fire is Hades, the grave. Death and the grave will be thrown into the Lake of Fire

 

[for_his_glory]

if Jesus spoke english, it could very well be that Hades was thrown into Hell. As that is the exact word in greek in revelation 20:14. A temporal hell was thrown into the more permanent hell to be exact.

That's just your opinion, but yet again even you are saying hell is thrown into hell and that is not what scripture says in Rev 20:14 plus there is no such thing as a temporal hell and how can something be thrown into itself.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell
Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.
Greek # 5020. Tartaroo tar-tar-o'-o from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.

The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.

 

[for_his_glory]

I think Christians should get away from using the word hell. It's an English word and the way it's understood today is not a Biblical concept/ What is cast into the Lake of Fire is Hades, the grave. Death and the grave will be thrown into the Lake of Fire

I agree as the English definition has way to many meanings in the literal slang and the metaphoric as the Hebrew word is Hades as being the grave.

 

[n2thelight]

Like I said, the car in the junkyard is destroyed but it still exists.

The car in the junkyard didn't have a soul in it.Our flesh returns to the dust where it came from and just like that car,it will remain dust forever....

 

[n2thelight]

Hebrews 12:29 "For our God is a consuming fire."

Many read this statement and become frightened, and they should when they have not repented of their sins. Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

This "consuming fire" is "God's glory present". God's "consuming fire" is the Holy Spirit that warms your heart, and protects you when the enemy comes against you. His Spirit will protect you exactly as God protected Daniel when he was in the Lion's den, or the three Hebrew children in the fiery furnace. This consuming fire was symbolic, or to signify that God will protect His own. So to those that love Him this, consuming fire is our protection, but to those who are against Christ it will consume them and cause them to perish.

So when you witness for Christ and study to follow His Word, God is going to take care of you. We are living in the generation of the "parable of the fig tree", spoken of in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, which is the final generation, and though Satan will rule this world for a brief time, God is our protection. That final generation started when the Jews, the two baskets of good and bad figs returned to Jerusalem to establish a new homeland. When that nation was established, the shoot of the fig tree was planted and all the signs and wonders of the end of this earth age would take place before the end of this generation comes to a close. That generation started in 1948, with a charter from the United Nation, and from it came the tiny nation of Israel.

It is because of these times that we are instructed to keep our eyes on Jerusalem, for it is there that the Antichrist will rule the earth. And during this reign of Satan, the "consuming fire" who is the Holy Spirit of God will keep each of his elect safe from harm. All that is except the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation 11:7 "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascended out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them." That beast is Satan, and he will kill the two witness in Jerusalem while the world watches, and celebrates their death.

God will allow every thing that will happen to happen, and at the end of three and one half days, life comes back into the two witness, and they ascend into heaven. This marks the end of this earth age, "and instantly the second woe is past and behold the third woe cometh quickly."Friend, the seventh trumpet sounds, and this marks the start of the Millennium age, which is the destruction of all evil rudiments, idolatry, Satan's entire host of fallen angels. "God is a consuming fire."

 

[chessman]

2 Thess 2:3 - Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction

What is there within this verse that makes you think “the man of lawlessness” is a beast like a lion or leopard or dragon?

And, BTW, he’s doomed to what?

 

[chessman]

Here is my question, how can hell be the lake of fire if it is cast into it,
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Because in Revelation, John has used these words as the names for horse riders in his vision.

And I saw, and behold— there was a pale-green horse, and the one sitting on it. Death was the name for him. And Hades was following with him. And authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild-beasts of the earth.​

Revelation 6:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 6:8&version=DLNT

These horse riders bring death and destruction, thus the names Death and Hades are given to them.

 

[chessman]

The point is they are more than just spirits.

They are visions of John’s (unlocked) and Daniel (locked) looking “like” beasts but representing demons in reality. John says so in his unlocked scroll for a reason:

For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.​

Revelation 16:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:14&version=DLNT

the beast has eyes like a man and speaks.

Yes, “like a man”. And is revealed to be a demon in John’s Revelation.

 

[PeterJens]

Sorry for not being clearer. I said "sin committed in ignorance," not all sin. That is, God will not expect us to fulfill some command if we are ignorant of that command. It is still sin requiring blood Atonement (4:13-27), but it is not a life destroying sin or a sin "unto death." Scripture describes different kinds of sins:

1-"Willful" transgression of a known law: Some suggest Adam's transgression, but I do not agree with that example, since Adam died spiritually. However, there can be an element of willfulness (knowing) with certain sins, I believe, that does not necessarily correlate to spiritual death, unlike no. 4 below.

2-Sin of deception: Eve's transgression (2 Cor. 11:3; 1Tim. 2:14). This was suggested by some Bible teacher. However, I don't claim to fully understand all the distinctives here as compared to other types of sins.

3-Sin of ignorance: For example, a guilty party being unaware of sin (Lev. 4:13-27; also includes “unintentional sins”).

4-Presumptuous sin: also called “high handed” or “defiant” sin as described in Num. 15:30. (This type of sin apparently has the characteristics of: refusing to be guided by the Lord, even though one is aware of God’s will and one has the capacity to do God’s will; refusing to hear the word of the lord; pre-meditation; unequivocal rebellion.) A related verse: Hebrews 10:26. Possibly also 1John 5:16.

Herein lies a problem for me.
Sinful actions are the outward sign of the lack of communion with God which is sin itself and leads to death.
To not commune, to reach out and be one with Him, is to reject Him. As a brother described, how alive are you
if you stop breathing.
Those who are separated from the Father are in sin, whether they are aware of it or not.
Judgement is marking up the actions that have come out of this state, but are not the cause of it.
We are born outside of communion with the Holy Spirit except for John the Baptist.
We inherit this state from our parents. In some way Paul described the believing parent makes
holy the child, so is not deemed to be rejected, but accepted. This makes things slightly more
complex.

Now without the gospel and faith in Christ there is no salvation.
For me this is just saying finding Christ is finding life and wholeness, which is a good thing.
Most of the world will reject this offer of love and truth, but that does not invalidate it or say
wherever His word goes so also goes the offer of life.

What is a stark reality, is I have met people who call themselves believers, but if I get a certain
view of theology wrong in their eyes I am evil, worse than a murderer and are doomed to hell and
leading others there likewise. In their theology, the heart, purity, holiness, love do not feature,
but "faith" and its sealing. Though they will condemn others strongly for their idea that theology
alone binds you to God, they equally live this way, rather than listening to the heart and seeing how
it speaks out of their belief system and Christ they apply a formula alone.

I raise this because ideas about Hell and punishment, centre on what is the nature of spiritual life
and eternity, which actually drives a lot of the other theological ideas. Once you believe everyone
is eternal, then Hell is eternal, and separation could never be annihilation, because that would deny
the eternal nature of existence.

So we probably differ on these core concepts, which lead to the other positions.
It is hard to see anywhere is scripture about us being eternal, except when we have faith in Christ.
This suggests mortal man, will die and be destroyed in the second death.

 

[FreeGrace]

for_his_glory said: ↑
Here is my question, how can hell be the lake of fire if it is cast into it,
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

if Jesus spoke english, it could very well be that Hades was thrown into Hell. As that is the exact word in greek in revelation 20:14. A temporal hell was thrown into the more permanent hell to be exact.

Doesn't make sense. The Bible doesn't teach a temporary hell and a "more permanent" hell.

It teaches that a place called hell was thrown into a place called the lake of fire. At least you've recognized that there are 2 different places; one thrown into the other.

 

[FreeGrace]

As I said in the first post. Our past discussions have been fruitless. This one seems to be headed the same way. You simply disagree with whatever is presented without explaining why.

I gave an explanation. It was either missed or misunderstood.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said: ↑
2 Thess 2:3 - Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction

What is there within this verse that makes you think “the man of lawlessness” is a beast like a lion or leopard or dragon?

I never said it did. The point is that the Bible calls the beast a man.

And, BTW, he’s doomed to what?

Translated 'perdition' in the NIV.

Greek: NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):

Nothing here about ceasing to exist or annihilation. Certainly everyone in the lake of fire will be ruined and suffer loss.

 

[PeterJens]

Loss of salvation view cannot explain the clear words of Jesus when He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. The LOS view claims those who have received eternal life CAN perish. dwIn direct conflict with the words of Jesus.

Above is a common miss-conception.
I can say everyone who gets on the train to London will arrive in London.
This is a true statement, and a promise, that the train will deliver them to the destination to which they wish
to go. It does not say they cannot get off, and says nothing about what happens if they do get off except
clearly as they are no longer on the train they will no longer reach the destination as the means of such
a thing has be removed.

Jesus gave promises in the present tense. Believe and you will be saved, walk in faith and you will have life.
You have passed over from death to life.

The nature of the Kingdom has always been that you can pass back if you so desire.
God is so humble, He asks us to follow, to learn, to choose, to listen, to obey.

So to state that the ability to get off the train of faith is contradicting Jesus's words is simply not true.
The opposite is true, that such a believer is constructing a ticket view of salvation, once bought never
lost which is exactly the attitude the pharisees had, because they were abrahams children even though
Jesus clearly showed their behaviour and hearts showed they did not know God at all.

The challenge to them was simply, walk in the way of God, His commands and love, and you will find life.
One particular group appear to hate this idea so strongly they are prepared to spit venom on anyone who
suggests walking in Holiness and purity is possible is a work of bondage and satan. Now unfortunately I
have a simple view, if you are of God you support those who walk in His ways and do the right things.
Those who condemn right living, are confused and deluded, for whatever reason, the Holy Spirit is not
guiding them into truth.

"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled."
Matt 5:6

One cannot claim to know Christ and the Father and condemn people who have this desire.
What I have discovered though is people will go into the spirit, and utter condemnation as if it is
from God, and have no fear they might be doing the exact opposite, which the bible has too many
examples of people doing time and again. The pharisees called Jesus of having a demon.