The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[th1b.taylor]

Emotional allegiance. A lot of the concepts being discussed have a lot of emotional ties in our hearts.
I know how upset in the past I have become on some points.
For me to grow, is to face the issues and trust the Father and His Son. I know I learn one thing at a time,
and need space to work things through.

So for me the idea people have an independent spirit from their bodies, seems to be not biblical.
If anything our brains and brain damage displays we are a function of our physical existance, no matter how
independent we want it to be. It is why so many find dementia so hard to face.

We also seem to be very similar to other mamals. Our social structures and ways of relating are more about
biological survival than transcendent existance. Jesus appears to be calling us from the mortal, constrained
existance into the eternal, so that He might make us part of the Kingdom of heaven, which is taking that which
will return to dust and ashes and making it new, with a different dimension.

Now it is easy to exalt us beyond where we are, and then build our own views that keep us happy, but
invariably they are about reassurance not facing Gods word.
Pauls description of the resurrection is simple
"If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." 1 cor 15:44
"For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 1 cor 15:53-54

We die, our bodies die, and to exist in eternity we must be raised from the dead and given
an imperishable body.

Paul did not believe we were spirits with a body, else there would be no need for a bodily resurrection,
but we just pass over as the spiritualists claim.

And I think this hits on a really important point. The spirit of a man being eternal and passing over on
death is not a christian belief but from other faiths.

Philippians 1:20 I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have complete boldness, so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. 21For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know.…

How do you reconcile your conclusion with this passage?

And then there is:
8Then I looked and saw a pale horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed close behind. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth. 9And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?”

it answers two questions for my head. We see that the body, is in the grave when we read all of the book and yet, we, our Souls, is in Heaven and we are impatient.

 

[chessman]

So again, you are saying Hades is thrown into Hades

No, I’m saying two horse riders are seen by John in a vision thrown into a lake of fire. John says these horse riders’ names are Hades and Death.

Hades is not the lake of fire, but will be cast into it, Rev 20:14

Correct.
The interpretation of this vision is the second death of the lost. The destruction Jesus says fear while not fearing the first death. Because the first is merely the killing of the body but not the soul. The second, however, will be shown to be destruction of both the body and soul.

 

[chessman]

What are you arguing?

That The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet within John’s visions are not humans but rather demons. And it’s not really an ‘argument’ as much as it is simply pointing out this simple fact.

Is your argument that they don't inhabit people?

No.
It’s the simple fact that Rev 20:10 is John’s vision of The Dragon (Satan/Devil) joining two other demons in The Lake of Fire.

And the devil, the one deceiving them, was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur— where both the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented by day and by night forever and ever.​

Revelation 20:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:10&version=DLNT

The above verse says nothing about lost humans (or dogs or cats) being tormented forever.

 

[chessman]

The point is that the Bible calls the beast a man.

No it doesn’t.

It calls The Dragon, The Beast AND The False Prophet demons doing signs:

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false-prophet. For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.​

Revelation 16:13-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:13-14&version=DLNT

 

[Justicewolf]

Unbelievable. Thirty-four pages debating what Jesus died to insure we'd never know.
Apples and oranges at this point isn't it? People who die in their sins burn for eternity, or they don't. People who die in their sins are destroyed as that soul consciousness that use to inhabit a body that had a name and a family, after suffering regret for not holding faith in Christ.
Or, people return to the dust of the ground from whence they came, and their soul returns to the one that gave it. As scripture says.
Ecclesiastes 3:20 and 12:7
One part of that eternal sovereign power is the abyss, where that soul will know nothing. The other is paradise. Because God is all things. He's in heaven and he's in Hell. Psalm 139.

Everything including Satan was created by God. There is no place we can go in this life or outside of it and escape God. That's in Psalm 139 also. But we who are redeemed in Christ aren't going to Hell. Why then are you all going to the extent of 34 pages to argue which one of you knows what they're talking about when they discuss a place they'll never see?

 

[godsquadgeek]

That The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet within John’s visions are not humans but rather demons. And it’s not really an ‘argument’ as much as it is simply pointing out this simple fact.


No.
It’s the simple fact that Rev 20:10 is John’s vision of The Dragon (Satan/Devil) joining two other demons in The Lake of Fire.

And the devil, the one deceiving them, was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur— where both the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented by day and by night forever and ever.​

Revelation 20:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:10&version=DLNT

The above verse says nothing about lost humans (or dogs or cats) being tormented forever.

But other verses talk about the duration of human hell. See my other posts.

 

[chessman]

But other verses talk about the duration of human hell. See my other posts.

Of course the lost’s eternal destruction of both the body and soul in hell is eternal.

who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength,​

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 1:9&version=DLNT

 

[Butch5]

That The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet within John’s visions are not humans but rather demons. And it’s not really an ‘argument’ as much as it is simply pointing out this simple fact.


No.
It’s the simple fact that Rev 20:10 is John’s vision of The Dragon (Satan/Devil) joining two other demons in The Lake of Fire.

And the devil, the one deceiving them, was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur— where both the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented by day and by night forever and ever.​

Revelation 20:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:10&version=DLNT

The above verse says nothing about lost humans (or dogs or cats) being tormented forever.

Do demons possess men?

 

[Butch5]

"just because a root means age does not mean that every word derived from that root means a limited duration of time. For example, consider this verse that is speaking about God:
who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen, (1 Tim. 6:16)"- Matt Slick at Carm.com

If and only if, "aion" is temporary then the following assumptions must be true

1. The glory of God is temporary (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, Revelation 22:5, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, Galatians 1:5, Romans 1:23 and Philippians 4:20)
2. The righteousness of God is also temporary, which is implying that God is a sinner! (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1 Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, John 12:34, John 14:16 and 2Corinthians 9:9)
3. God lives only temporarily, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)
4. God's Kingdom is temporary, (contradicts: Revelation 22:5, Daniel 7:18, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, and Ephesians 1:21)
5. God is only wise temporarily, God is apparently unwise later on. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, Romans 16:27 and Jude 1:25)
6. God is incorruptible temporarily, (contradicts: 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, 2Corinthians 9:9 and Romans 1:23)
7. God is not immortal, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)
8. God abide's only temporarily, (contradicts: 1Peter 1:23, John 12:34 and John 14:16)

VERSE LIST

1Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal[aion], immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.

1Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they (his servants---Rev. 22:3) shall reign for ever[aion] and ever[aion].

Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible(1 Cor. 15:52), by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever[aion].

Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever[aion]. Amen.

Revelation 10:6 "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are,..."

1John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever[aion].

Matthew 6:13 "...For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever[aion]. Amen."

John 12:34 "...that Christ abideth for ever[aion]:..."

John 14:16 "...the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever[aion];..."

Romans 1:23 "...And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God..."

Romans 1:25 "...the Creator, who is blessed for ever[aion]. Amen."

Romans 9:5 "... Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever[aion]. Amen."

Romans 16:27 "To God only wise, [be] glory through Jesus Christ for ever[aion]..."

2Corinthians 9:9 "...his righteousness remaineth for ever[aion]."

Galatians 1:5 To whom [be] glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.

Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Ephesians 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Philippians 4:20 Now unto God and our Father [be] glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.

You're making the same mistake. You're allowing you theology to drive your interpretation. Is God's glory unto the ages of the ages?

 

[godsquadgeek]

You're making the same mistake. You're allowing you theology to drive your interpretation. Is God's glory unto the ages of the ages?

You're projecting. Please prove I am making a mistake with scriptures.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Of course the lost’s eternal destruction of both the body and soul in hell is eternal.

who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength,​

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 1:9&version=DLNT

A car is destroyed in the junkyard forever, but it still exists that whole time.

 

[Butch5]

You're projecting. Please prove I am making a mistake with scriptures.

Since you replied to a post that was to someone else, I figured you were following the discussion. If you were then you'd know how the Scriptures were misused. You said,

If and only if, "aion" is temporary then the following assumptions must be true.

By way of inference you assumed certain conclusions from those passages, the assumptions are wrong.

 

[PeterJens]

How in the world can anyone come to such a misunderstood conclusion from what Jesus said. If the truth is that if any recipient of eternal life can lose it, then what Jesus said is not only irrelevant, immaterial, but actually WRONG.

This statement is what it means by cognitive disonance.
An idea is linked to another idea, not in a open way, but in a way that says all other views are "WRONG"

In this world everything we have is only held together by our perception. It is the reality that brought the world
of absolutes down to the reality of faith and belief. We have good reason to believe everything we trust, but
we always have to keep in the back of our minds, we could be wrong, and it is best to check.

I work as a business analyst. You meet people who say one thing and people take it to mean many different
things depending on the assumed context and meaning. I have spoken to the source of some statements and
found what they actually meant was not what people thought they meant, and they were not willing to fill in the
gaps, because for them it did not matter.

Jesus said things which were meant to be explored, because there are so many different aspects to them.
Salvation is not a one sentence thing, or a series of ideas but a walk and life with God. It is much more than
an A4 bit of paper, on just an acceptance of need.

If you listen to Jesus, you will hear one simple observation. Many believe they are right, and yet will be wrong.
It should make anyone who definatively writes others off over one sentence to pause. If not, this in itself is
testimony enough to decide they have not begun to walk with the Lord in openness and honesty.

And the anger being written here. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is peace, patience and self control.
Praise the Lord.

 

[PeterJens]

Jesus said those who walk in the Kingdom shall never perish.
Now obviously he did not mean they would not die, else they would be alive now.
So he must be referring to the second death.
How honest are people about Jesus's words and how they mean different things.
"Blessed are the poor in Spirit"
"Blessed are the poor"
Jesus meant wealth is trap, security leads us to trust in this world and not reach out
to Him. Equally He is addressing the social desire to always be happy, to put on a brave
face, to enjoy life in the fleeting moment, when He meant us to know the failure and pain,
the suffering and sin many live under without support or relief.

Now He also means so much more, and many have written on these subjects with great
insight and wisdom. It always amazes me when some take this subject like an approval list,
conform to the teacher, or be excluded and thrown out of the group. It is amazing how some
who claim the spirit of grace and love are so incapable of just listening and learning about
the will and wisdom of God. But it is little wonder considering the amount of condemnation they
pour of bible believing faithful loving followers of Christ.

 

[FreeGrace]

And the devil, the one deceiving them, was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur— where both the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented by day and by night forever and ever.​

Revelation 20:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:10&version=DLNT

The above verse says nothing about lost humans (or dogs or cats) being tormented forever.

The doesn't have to say that. It's obvious from the rest of the context, since v.11-15 leads to all humans who don't have eternal life being cast into the SAME lake of fire.

There's no reason to assume that the humans get off with ceasing to exist while the angels are tormented forever and ever.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The point is that the Bible calls the beast a man."

No it doesn’t.

Then who is the "man of lawlessness" of 2 Thess 2:3?
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"How in the world can anyone come to such a misunderstood conclusion from what Jesus said. If the truth is that if any recipient of eternal life can lose it, then what Jesus said is not only irrelevant, immaterial, but actually WRONG."

This statement is what it means by cognitive disonance.
An idea is linked to another idea, not in a open way, but in a way that says all other views are "WRONG"

There is no dissonance. The mere charge needs to be backed up with evidence.

And you didn't answer my question. And because Jesus DID say that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, so IF any recipient DID perish, then what Jesus said is irrelevant, immaterial and quite WRONG.

So, since you disagree, please explain how there is any dissonance here. Go beyond the claim with substance.

I work as a business analyst. You meet people who say one thing and people take it to mean many different
things depending on the assumed context and meaning.

Did Jesus actually mean it when He said He gives them eternal life (and we know that means those who have believed, from Jn 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47,54, 11;25-27 and 20:31) shall never perish?

Or, does that mean that some recipients can perish?

I have spoken to the source of some statements and found what they actually meant was not what people thought they meant, and they were not willing to fill in the gaps, because for them it did not matter.

My question is about what Jesus actually meant in John 10:28 about recipients of eternal life never perishing. I hope you'll answer.

Jesus said things which were meant to be explored, because there are so many different aspects to them.

Is this a suggestion that we simply can't know what all He meant in Jn 10:28 then?

And the anger being written here.

Hm. I haven't seen anger. There may be frustration on the part of some.

 

[PeterJens]

Philippians 1:20 I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have complete boldness, so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. 21For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know.…

How do you reconcile your conclusion with this passage?

And then there is:
8Then I looked and saw a pale horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed close behind. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth. 9And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?”

it answers two questions for my head. We see that the body, is in the grave when we read all of the book and yet, we, our Souls, is in Heaven and we are impatient.

I agree, the passage in revelation does not make sense.
We also have King Saul calling up the Samuel.
We also have Moses and Elijah speaking to Jesus on the mountain of transfiguration.
Now I do not have an answer to this, except Paul did not believe we can exist without
a body. But then Paul also talks about being caught up in the heavenlies.

I look at things that however I am expressed God will create me in an appropriate vessel.
I think the emphasis on consciouness outside of a body is the world of demons and spiritualism
and something we are banned from getting involved with, but has infiltrated the church.
It has got so bad, a "prophet" can say they are speaking to dead believers who are pleased
with the progress in the church and wish to pass on their blessing. There is no difference between
this and spiritualists talking with spirit guides. It is also the world were Gods word in secondary
from the direct word through a prophet for the church, and the spectacular replaces the ministry
of love and care for all who we meet.

I conclude that the truth is a mixture of these issues, but until it is made plain, we are called to
be faithful and spiritual in the state we are in, and rejoice in His blessing each day.
Praise the Lord

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus said those who walk in the Kingdom shall never perish.

Plese cite the verse that says this, because I've never come across such a verse.

What Jesus did say about never perishing is found in John 10:28 and it was clearly about recipients of eternal life.

in an earlier post you charged me with cognitive dissonance for something I asked. But it seems that's what you've just done here.

Now obviously he did not mean they would not die, else they would be alive now.

I think it's clear that He was referring to those given eternal life would never end upl in the lake of fire. He certainly wasn't talking about physical death.

So he must be referring to the second death.

Exactly.

Now He also means so much more, and many have written on these subjects with great
insight and wisdom. It always amazes me when some take this subject like an approval list,
conform to the teacher, or be excluded and thrown out of the group. It is amazing how some
who claim the spirit of grace and love are so incapable of just listening and learning about
the will and wisdom of God. But it is little wonder considering the amount of condemnation they
pour of bible believing faithful loving followers of Christ.

I really don't see how any of this relates in any way to what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life in Joh 10:28.

 

[chessman]

Do demons possess men?

Yes, and pigs. Proving my point. Men are not demons or pigs.

And the demons were begging Him, saying, “If You are casting us out, send us out into the herd of pigs”. And He said to them, “Go!” And the ones, having come out, went into the pigs. And behold— the whole herd rushed down the steep-bank into the sea and died in the waters.​

Matthew 8:31-32 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 8:31-32&version=DLNT


Is The Dragon or The Beasts visoned in John’s Revelation men or pigs or demons, is the question though??? And the answer is they are demons doing signs, which go out to men (kings, men) of the whole world.

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false-prophet. For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.​

Revelation 16:13-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:13-14&version=DLNT