The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[PeterJens]

Emotional allegiance. A lot of the concepts being discussed have a lot of emotional ties in our hearts.
I know how upset in the past I have become on some points.
For me to grow, is to face the issues and trust the Father and His Son. I know I learn one thing at a time,
and need space to work things through.

So for me the idea people have an independent spirit from their bodies, seems to be not biblical.
If anything our brains and brain damage displays we are a function of our physical existance, no matter how
independent we want it to be. It is why so many find dementia so hard to face.

We also seem to be very similar to other mamals. Our social structures and ways of relating are more about
biological survival than transcendent existance. Jesus appears to be calling us from the mortal, constrained
existance into the eternal, so that He might make us part of the Kingdom of heaven, which is taking that which
will return to dust and ashes and making it new, with a different dimension.

Now it is easy to exalt us beyond where we are, and then build our own views that keep us happy, but
invariably they are about reassurance not facing Gods word.
Pauls description of the resurrection is simple
"If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." 1 cor 15:44
"For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 1 cor 15:53-54

We die, our bodies die, and to exist in eternity we must be raised from the dead and given
an imperishable body.

Paul did not believe we were spirits with a body, else there would be no need for a bodily resurrection,
but we just pass over as the spiritualists claim.

And I think this hits on a really important point. The spirit of a man being eternal and passing over on
death is not a christian belief but from other faiths.

 

[Randy]

I don't believe in a literal lake of fire. (no more than I believe Jesus is an actual door or God a fire breathing dragon!) And in the Bible, fire is for refining, testing. So there's lots of ways to look at it. I don't believe God is a sadistic monster and throwing people into a lake of fire to feel the torment that would bring is not consistent with a God whose very nature is love. There are lots of metaphors in the Bible and lots of word pictures. People can believe what they want because ultimately, it's just an inference one has drawn from reading. We all do this. And those that claim the HS gave it to them, well frankly I ignore them. We don't know most things. We know some things, very little. This is one subject that ought to be dealt with humbly and with care. People that speak as if they have the answers probably don't.

So by your own words you don't believe what is written. So you disagree.

I don't believe God is unjust either. A loving God warns and warns upfront. Rev 11 is such a last warning 1260 days. If anyone has even a shred of faith in those days they will believe. But we read how many in the world take joy in the deaths of those two witnesses. People debate whether God needs to punish sin. The bible shows when Gods warnings and corrections are ignored after a while judgment comes that is He does punish sin. You write like its in the wrong to believe GOD. God will show Himself Holy.
From the head of the body of Christ and the judge of the living and the dead:
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torment us before the appointed time?"

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Loss of salvation view cannot explain the clear words of Jesus when He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. The LOS view claims those who have received eternal life CAN perish. dwIn direct conflict with the words of Jesus."

Above is a common miss-conception.

No it's not.

I can say everyone who gets on the train to London will arrive in London.
This is a true statement, and a promise, that the train will deliver them to the destination to which they wish
to go. It does not say they cannot get off, and says nothing about what happens if they do get off except
clearly as they are no longer on the train they will no longer reach the destination as the means of such
a thing has be removed.

How in the world can anyone come to such a misunderstood conclusion from what Jesus said. If the truth is that if any recipient of eternal life can lose it, then what Jesus said is not only irrelevant, immaterial, but actually WRONG.

Think of this: if any recipient of eternal life does perish, then Jesus' statement is a LIE. Because He said they wouldn't. Ever.

His statement included NO CONDITIONS to be met by recipients of eternal life.

By the very fact that He gave them eternal life, they ALREADY met the single condition for having eternal life; believing in Him for it.
John 3:15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 54, 10:28, 11:25-27, 20:31.

Jesus gave promises in the present tense. Believe and you will be saved, walk in faith and you will have life.
You have passed over from death to life.

This is an abuse of the present tense. It NEVER means continuous action to continue to receive the outcome of the action.

What John 5:24 plainly says is that those who believe HAVE (as in presently possess) eternal life. And 10:28 promises that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

This is quite straightforward.

The nature of the Kingdom has always been that you can pass back if you so desire.

Where do you get this notion? Not from the Bible, for sure.

So to state that the ability to get off the train of faith is contradicting Jesus's words is simply not true.

Your denial isn't true.

 

[godsquadgeek]

for_his_glory said: ↑
Here is my question, how can hell be the lake of fire if it is cast into it,
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Doesn't make sense. The Bible doesn't teach a temporary hell and a "more permanent" hell.

It teaches that a place called hell was thrown into a place called the lake of fire. At least you've recognized that there are 2 different places; one thrown into the other.

Please prove all allegations with scripture.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Hebrews 12:29 "For our God is a consuming fire."

Many read this statement and become frightened, and they should when they have not repented of their sins. Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

This "consuming fire" is "God's glory present". God's "consuming fire" is the Holy Spirit that warms your heart, and protects you when the enemy comes against you. His Spirit will protect you exactly as God protected Daniel when he was in the Lion's den, or the three Hebrew children in the fiery furnace. This consuming fire was symbolic, or to signify that God will protect His own. So to those that love Him this, consuming fire is our protection, but to those who are against Christ it will consume them and cause them to perish.

So when you witness for Christ and study to follow His Word, God is going to take care of you. We are living in the generation of the "parable of the fig tree", spoken of in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, which is the final generation, and though Satan will rule this world for a brief time, God is our protection. That final generation started when the Jews, the two baskets of good and bad figs returned to Jerusalem to establish a new homeland. When that nation was established, the shoot of the fig tree was planted and all the signs and wonders of the end of this earth age would take place before the end of this generation comes to a close. That generation started in 1948, with a charter from the United Nation, and from it came the tiny nation of Israel.

It is because of these times that we are instructed to keep our eyes on Jerusalem, for it is there that the Antichrist will rule the earth. And during this reign of Satan, the "consuming fire" who is the Holy Spirit of God will keep each of his elect safe from harm. All that is except the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation 11:7 "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascended out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them." That beast is Satan, and he will kill the two witness in Jerusalem while the world watches, and celebrates their death.

God will allow every thing that will happen to happen, and at the end of three and one half days, life comes back into the two witness, and they ascend into heaven. This marks the end of this earth age, "and instantly the second woe is past and behold the third woe cometh quickly."Friend, the seventh trumpet sounds, and this marks the start of the Millennium age, which is the destruction of all evil rudiments, idolatry, Satan's entire host of fallen angels. "God is a consuming fire."

All verses speaking of fire speak of literal fire in greek, the same fire you use to BBQ with. In what way could he inflict more pain, I don't know. It's glorious that God who knows everythought would be patient enough to wait till the judgement to throw them in hell. I would toss them in right now because I am impatient. Imagine knowing every sin of blasphemy and hatred and lust and murder. Could you handle seeing your creation mesmerized by Satan to the point they are no longer any heavenly good? Yeah if I could see all that sin, I would not wait for judgement. I would hold a BBQ tonight.

 

[godsquadgeek]

The car in the junkyard didn't have a soul in it.Our flesh returns to the dust where it came from and just like that car,it will remain dust forever....

Just because a soul is destroyed does not mean it ceases to exist. Please prove this with scripture.

 

[Butch5]

They are visions of John’s (unlocked) and Daniel (locked) looking “like” beasts but representing demons in reality. John says so in his unlocked scroll for a reason:

For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.​

Revelation 16:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:14&version=DLNT


Yes, “like a man”. And is revealed to be a demon in John’s Revelation.

What are you arguing? I agreed that they are spirits. However, we see in the Gospels that spirits inhabit people. Is your argument that they don't inhabit people?

 

[Butch5]

I gave an explanation. It was either missed or misunderstood.

'I can say the same about you,' isn't an explanation. It just suggests to me that you're not really interested in really working through the doctrines but rather just trying to win an argument. I made the statement that your whole argument is pretty much based on one word, aion, to which you didn't respond. Instead you posted more passages. It seems to me that if one is serious they're going to consider all of the evidence equally, not just some of it.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Not a literal hell fire
is coming close to heresy imo, but I could be wrong.

And you could be dead on, I don't know.

 

[Papa Zoom]

So by your own words you don't believe what is written. So you disagree.

I don't believe God is unjust either. A loving God warns and warns upfront. Rev 11 is such a last warning 1260 days. If anyone has even a shred of faith in those days they will believe. But we read how many in the world take joy in the deaths of those two witnesses. People debate whether God needs to punish sin. The bible shows when Gods warnings and corrections are ignored after a while judgment comes that is He does punish sin. You write like its in the wrong to believe GOD. God will show Himself Holy.
From the head of the body of Christ and the judge of the living and the dead:
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torment us before the appointed time?"

I don't believe what is written. Nice shot Randy. I don't believe God. That's a violation of the TOS and it's uncharitable. Do you not know the posting rules?

Your entire post is silly. I don't believe God is gonna burn anyone for eternity and I don't believe that's the meaning of the text. I totally believe what is written but I understand it differently. Next time you respond to me, don't do it in a way that questions my faith.

 

[Randy]

I don't believe what is written. Nice shot Randy. I don't believe God. That's a violation of the TOS and it's uncharitable. Do you not know the posting rules?

Your entire post is silly. I don't believe God is gonna burn anyone for eternity and I don't believe that's the meaning of the text. I totally believe what is written but I understand it differently. Next time you respond to me, don't do it in a way that questions my faith.

I know you believe in Jesus. Otherwise you wouldn't be here.
Papa Zoom=I don't believe in a literal lake of fire
Jesus=>Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I know you believe in Jesus. Otherwise you wouldn't be here.
Papa Zoom=I don't believe in a literal lake of fire
Jesus=>Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

So what? What exactly did Jesus mean by that? A literal fire that burns you forever? I don't think that's what is meant. And I'm not alone. Tons of scholars see it the same way.

If you throw me into a fire, I burn up and die. If God makes it so I can feel the pain of the fire but not die, he's a sadistic god. That's not what a loving God would do. It's an evil thing to torture someone for eternity. To create conditions that will maximize my pain because I grew up in a place and Jesus wasn't even an after thought. So for that God is gonna burn them forever? Hardly. I don't think "eternal fire" means an actual fire. Just because you infer that from the text, doesn't mean the text implies that. Jesus also said he is the door. But we know he's not made of wood. He's not a vine either and we clearly aren't branches. So if you're going to take something literally because you've been taught that, take care or you'll have God as a fire breathing dragon. These are word pictures. They show the unpleasantness of rejecting the truth of God. But if God is love as the bible says, I reject that He'd act in a way that we all know is sadistic and cruel.

 

[WIP]

Replies are becoming more personal and there are points and counterpoints made without showing support from Scripture, which translates into opinion. Stay with the rules of this forum.

 

[Randy]

So what? What exactly did Jesus mean by that? A literal fire that burns you forever? I don't think that's what is meant. And I'm not alone. Tons of scholars see it the same way.

If you throw me into a fire, I burn up and die. If God makes it so I can feel the pain of the fire but not die, he's a sadistic god. That's not what a loving God would do. It's an evil thing to torture someone for eternity. To create conditions that will maximize my pain because I grew up in a place and Jesus wasn't even an after thought. So for that God is gonna burn them forever? Hardly. I don't think "eternal fire" means an actual fire. Just because you infer that from the text, doesn't mean the text implies that. Jesus also said he is the door. But we know he's not made of wood. He's not a vine either and we clearly aren't branches. So if you're going to take something literally because you've been taught that, take care or you'll have God as a fire breathing dragon. These are word pictures. They show the unpleasantness of rejecting the truth of God. But if God is love as the bible says, I reject that He'd act in a way that we all know is sadistic and cruel.

Well I gave you the best witness I could so we disagree. And despite the words of Jesus I believe those who suffer suffer because of their own doing as many warnings have been given.
Rev=>no rest night and day. Suffering, torment

The demons understood their future=>"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torment us before the appointed time?"

 

[godsquadgeek]

As I said in the first post. Our past discussions have been fruitless. This one seems to be headed the same way. You simply disagree with whatever is presented without explaining why.

"just because a root means age does not mean that every word derived from that root means a limited duration of time. For example, consider this verse that is speaking about God:
who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen, (1 Tim. 6:16)"- Matt Slick at Carm.com

If and only if, "aion" is temporary then the following assumptions must be true

1. The glory of God is temporary (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, Revelation 22:5, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, Galatians 1:5, Romans 1:23 and Philippians 4:20)
2. The righteousness of God is also temporary, which is implying that God is a sinner! (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1 Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, John 12:34, John 14:16 and 2Corinthians 9:9)
3. God lives only temporarily, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)
4. God's Kingdom is temporary, (contradicts: Revelation 22:5, Daniel 7:18, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, and Ephesians 1:21)
5. God is only wise temporarily, God is apparently unwise later on. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, Romans 16:27 and Jude 1:25)
6. God is incorruptible temporarily, (contradicts: 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, 2Corinthians 9:9 and Romans 1:23)
7. God is not immortal, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)
8. God abide's only temporarily, (contradicts: 1Peter 1:23, John 12:34 and John 14:16)

VERSE LIST

1Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal[aion], immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.

1Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they (his servants---Rev. 22:3) shall reign for ever[aion] and ever[aion].

Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible(1 Cor. 15:52), by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever[aion].

Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever[aion]. Amen.

Revelation 10:6 "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are,..."

1John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever[aion].

Matthew 6:13 "...For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever[aion]. Amen."

John 12:34 "...that Christ abideth for ever[aion]:..."

John 14:16 "...the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever[aion];..."

Romans 1:23 "...And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God..."

Romans 1:25 "...the Creator, who is blessed for ever[aion]. Amen."

Romans 9:5 "... Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever[aion]. Amen."

Romans 16:27 "To God only wise, [be] glory through Jesus Christ for ever[aion]..."

2Corinthians 9:9 "...his righteousness remaineth for ever[aion]."

Galatians 1:5 To whom [be] glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.

Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Ephesians 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Philippians 4:20 Now unto God and our Father [be] glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.

 

[godsquadgeek]

So what? What exactly did Jesus mean by that? A literal fire that burns you forever? I don't think that's what is meant. And I'm not alone. Tons of scholars see it the same way.

If you throw me into a fire, I burn up and die. If God makes it so I can feel the pain of the fire but not die, he's a sadistic god. That's not what a loving God would do. It's an evil thing to torture someone for eternity. To create conditions that will maximize my pain because I grew up in a place and Jesus wasn't even an after thought. So for that God is gonna burn them forever? Hardly. I don't think "eternal fire" means an actual fire. Just because you infer that from the text, doesn't mean the text implies that. Jesus also said he is the door. But we know he's not made of wood. He's not a vine either and we clearly aren't branches. So if you're going to take something literally because you've been taught that, take care or you'll have God as a fire breathing dragon. These are word pictures. They show the unpleasantness of rejecting the truth of God. But if God is love as the bible says, I reject that He'd act in a way that we all know is sadistic and cruel.

I believe the Bible states that there is a hybrid type of fire, that burns flesh and spirit, but not consuming them. Many many verses talk about "weeping and gnashing of teeth", "smoke of their torment", and other things that really can only be accomplished with some type of fire. If weeping and gnashing of teeth was not real, why repeat himself 7 times for something that was just metaphorical?

1. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:11-12).
2. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:41-42).
3. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:49-50).
4. And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 22:12-13).
5. The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 24:50-51).
6. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:29-30).
7. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out (Luke 13:27-28).

Lastly: This verse: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell" Matthew 10:28 For this to be true Hell must be worse than the worst torment on earth.

 

[FreeGrace]

Please prove all allegations with scripture.

Just read my posts.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Well I gave you the best witness I could so we disagree. And despite the words of Jesus I believe those who suffer suffer because of their own doing as many warnings have been given.
Rev=>no rest night and day. Suffering, torment

The demons understood their future=>"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torment us before the appointed time?"

I agree with eternal torment. And those of us who understand God, understand that he can be love and separate the dark for eternity. Anything horrible and anything opposite of God is in this place.

Jesus talks about this place in Luke 16:19-31 He even said if someone comes back from it and tells people, they still won't believe.

 

[for_his_glory]

Because in Revelation, John has used these words as the names for horse riders in his vision.

And I saw, and behold— there was a pale-green horse, and the one sitting on it. Death was the name for him. And Hades was following with him. And authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild-beasts of the earth.​

Revelation 6:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 6:8&version=DLNT

These horse riders bring death and destruction, thus the names Death and Hades are given to them.

So again, you are saying Hades is thrown into Hades. Hades is not the lake of fire, but will be cast into it, Rev 20:14

 

[for_his_glory]

Emotional allegiance. A lot of the concepts being discussed have a lot of emotional ties in our hearts.
I know how upset in the past I have become on some points.
For me to grow, is to face the issues and trust the Father and His Son. I know I learn one thing at a time,
and need space to work things through.

So for me the idea people have an independent spirit from their bodies, seems to be not biblical.
If anything our brains and brain damage displays we are a function of our physical existance, no matter how
independent we want it to be. It is why so many find dementia so hard to face.

We also seem to be very similar to other mamals. Our social structures and ways of relating are more about
biological survival than transcendent existance. Jesus appears to be calling us from the mortal, constrained
existance into the eternal, so that He might make us part of the Kingdom of heaven, which is taking that which
will return to dust and ashes and making it new, with a different dimension.

Now it is easy to exalt us beyond where we are, and then build our own views that keep us happy, but
invariably they are about reassurance not facing Gods word.
Pauls description of the resurrection is simple
"If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." 1 cor 15:44
"For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 1 cor 15:53-54

We die, our bodies die, and to exist in eternity we must be raised from the dead and given
an imperishable body.

Paul did not believe we were spirits with a body, else there would be no need for a bodily resurrection,
but we just pass over as the spiritualists claim.

And I think this hits on a really important point. The spirit of a man being eternal and passing over on
death is not a christian belief but from other faiths.

Well said as I agree. We are not spirits with a body as we were created a body first then breathed into by Gods spirit/breath that made us a living soul, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.