The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[FreeGrace]

but we are talking of humans who do literally have feet, so no need to allegorize unnecessarily.

Not their souls. That was my point. Why assume unbelievers "standing" before the GWT have literal feet? Why can't it be just an anthropomorphism? Please explain.

 

[for_his_glory]

Oh, I’ve been pointing this out since page 10. The heads (including it’s mouth) represents men, not The Beasts themselves (which are demons per the Scripture).

The below is to show you that the beast out of the sea and the beast out of the earth (the false prophet) are not the Dragon (Satan), but who the Dragon (Satan) gives power to as these men speak as the Dragon (Satan) gives them utterance.

Rev 13
John saw a beast (beast is often referred to as nations in scripture) rise up out of the sea having seven heads and ten horns and upon his horns ten crowns, (crowns denotes Kings) and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

The seven heads are that of the Babylonian Empire, Medo/Persian Empire, Grecian Empire and Roman Empire. The ten horns represent the nations the Roman Empire scattered to when the deadly wound was put upon them, Daniel 7:23-25.

The beast rises up out of the sea (rising to power) as the sea here is symbolic of people and nations as in a sea of humanity, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Revelation 17:15. This beast is the Luciferian government that controls all political, economic and religious systems throughout the world as it is made up of many men that Satan has control over as he gives this beast its power, Rev 13:4.

Another beast comes up out of the earth (rises to power) that looks like a lamb (false Christ) with two horns. The two horns represent the Old Roman Empire Priesthood that received its deadly wound back in 1798 that caused them to scatter into the other ten nations (horns).

These ten nations were the Anglo-Saxons (English), the Franks (French), Suevi (Portuguese), Visigoths (Spanish), Burgundians (Swiss), Alemanni (Germans), Lombards (Italians), Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals in northern Africa. The last three being Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals had already been destroyed by the Roman Empire before their deadly wound came in 1798.

The beast out of the earth that rises to power is the son of perdition (false Christ) who exercises all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed, Rev 13:11-18. The son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, is a man that takes its power and authority from the Luciferian government that is controlled by Satan who gives these two beast their power and words to speak.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Not their souls. That was my point. Why assume unbelievers "standing" before the GWT have literal feet? Why can't it be just an anthropomorphism? Please explain.

because it says "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. "- Revelation 20:13 nkjv
how can death give up the dead, if it was only souls, you would just say hades, but the fact that it mentions the sea and death itself indicates that those who died in those situations will stand before God as if they were alive again. So the question is why can't it be an anthromophism, the question is "WHY SHOULD IT?"

it is not proper hermeneutics to throw around allegories instead of taking verses literally. That is a fallacy, or reversing the burden if proif. The one who adds allegory must prove why it's not literal. Those taking it literally need not prove why we believe God at his literal word.

 

[chessman]

And this is the world ruler we generally call the anti-christ.

Okay. The man of Lawlessness is NOT The Beast or The False Prophet visioned in Revelation but rather one of it’s heads.

Just look at the context. It's no one else.

And the devil, the one deceiving them, was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur— where both the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented by day and by night forever and ever.​

Revelation 20:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:10&version=DLNT

Maybe you should look at the context . Is it your view that ‘the context’ describes a single man thrown into The Lake of Fire prior to and missing out on the Judgment of all lost humans (except this one)???

Then your view continues to be vague. In your term, "eternal destruction", does the soul ever cease to exist?

It is destroyed, forever.

The cities and residents actually ceased to exist in rather short order.

In Less than a 24 hour period the cites were destroyed, which is the example the Scriptures say to use for what will happen to the lost.

Is that how you view the "eternal destruction" of a soul? Or does it take longer?

On the day of judgment the lost’s bodies and souls of the risen lost will be shown to be destroyed when cast into Hell, is my view.

But I will show you Whom you should fear— fear the One having the authority to throw into Gehenna after the killing. Yes, I say to you, fear this One.​

Luke 12:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:5&version=DLNT

And do not be fearing anything from the ones killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. But be fearing instead the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=DLNT

First, no body will be destroyed in hell.

Not according to the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Hell.

Our physical bodies deteriorate when we die.

So? The dead will rise and be forced stand on the left side of Christ (who also died and rose) and they will speak and depart “from Him”.

And He will make the sheep stand on His right side, and the goats on the left side. Then He will also say to the ones on the left side, ‘Depart from Me, the ones having been cursed, into the eternal fire having been prepared for the devil and his angels.​

Matthew 25:33,41 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 25:33,41&version=DLNT

I do believe in eternal conscious torment (ECT).

I do too, of the Devil and his demons.
But for destroyed bodies and souls, not so much.

That is what is to be feared. If one no longer exists, there is nothing to fear.

Where does the Bible say to fear ECT?

 

[FreeGrace]

because it says "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. "- Revelation 20:13 nkjv
how can death give up the dead, if it was only souls, you would just say hades, but the fact that it mentions the sea and death itself indicates that those who died in those situations will stand before God as if they were alive again.

The souls of those who died is what's "given up".

So the question is why can't it be an anthromophism, the question is "WHY SHOULD IT?"

Because souls don't have legs to stand on.

it is not proper hermeneutics to throw around allegories instead of taking verses literally.

It's an anthropomorphism. And quite proper hermeneutics.

 

[FreeGrace]

Okay. The man of Lawlessness is NOT The Beast or The False Prophet visioned in Revelation but rather one of it’s heads.

Huh? Please show this from the context of 2 Thess 2. There's nothing about multiple heads there. And the context is clearly about the end time "anti-christ" who rules the world.

 

[chessman]

The below is to show you that the beast out of the sea and the beast out of the earth (the false prophet) are not the Dragon (Satan), but who the Dragon (Satan) gives power to as these men speak as the Dragon (Satan) gives them utterance.

None of that shows The Beasts are anything other than what John’s Revelation reveals them to be, “demons doing signs”!

For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.​

Revelation 16:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:14&version=DLNT
From what you know about Revelation, do these Beasts do signs?

 

[godsquadgeek]

The souls of those who died is what's "given up".

it begs the question, I say that the sea can't give up souls because souls are immaterial.

how can water affect immaterial things?

you say it's souls,

so it really begs the question as to what is being resurrected here. But I do know that souls are not bound by physical boundaries, like water or walls.

 

[Randy]

Sodom and Gomorrah inhabitants are now perpetually burning, so what's the point?

Actually I have hope for their souls. As in judged according to their flesh that they may live according to the Spirit. AS they died apart from law and before the light of the gospels.
if anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. (with light comes accountability)

 

[godsquadgeek]

Actually I have hope for their souls. As in judged according to their flesh that they may live according to the Spirit. AS they died apart from law and before the light of the gospels.
if anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. (with light comes accountability)

that was just a comparison of the most evil thing He could think of. Nothing more. I would not use it to state that HE had hope for the most evil generation. A group of males that wanted to sexually rape another male in group rape. Yeah did you forget how evil that group was? No repentance. And repentance is required.

 

[chessman]

There's nothing about multiple heads there.

That’s my point, there’s nothing about The Beasts there. Because 2 Thess 2:8 is about the man of lawlessness and The Beast and The False Prophet are demons doing signs.

 

[for_his_glory]

None of that shows The Beasts are anything other than what John’s Revelation reveals them to be, “demons doing signs”!

For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.​

Revelation 16:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:14&version=DLNT
From what you know about Revelation, do these Beasts do signs?

They are spirits of demons as I agree with that, but it is men that these spirits work through just as God is a Spirit and works through us. By all the scriptures I have given you, plus what FreeGrace has given you It's your choice to ignore the scriptures.We have explained the beast out of the sea and the beast out of the earth and who it is that gives them their power as they speak as a Dragon being Satan that will cause many to bow down and take its mark as they shoe lying signs and wonders even showing Jesus coming in the clouds. When one leans on their own understanding then they are not truly searching all the scriptures, but only rely on one or maybe two.

 

[Justicewolf]

Why, To give warning to those who are not of Christ that come into forums like this as many are seeking, but not yet finding.

BTW, why are you here on page 34 if it's not for the fact of sharing in the conversations?

Was I here on page 1?

Most people when they join religious forums read the rules tab and the mission statement. Or statement of faith , as it is sometimes called.
Relative to this thread, and why I wonder how this can argue on for 34 pages when the Bible is clear and so is the Statement of Faith.

We believe in a personal devil, called Satan, who, along with all his angels, called demons or evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell, and now seek to deceive the world, defeat the believers, and destroy the work of God, but can be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ our Lord.

We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever, and that hell is a literal place of torment where unbelievers will be punished.

Personally, I think a great addition to that tab would be a link to a one page information resource for those like what you describe. Those who are not of Christ and seeking, but not yet finding. Rather than read through discussions that we all know can become pretty hearted because we're passionate about our faith ,why not have a link in the SoF tab info at the top that links to a page entitled something like, "How To Be Saved".

That would be a beautiful addition for those seekers. Something short and precise so the seeker can say they've found.

 

[Apousía]

It's just the sense of major embarrassment felt by apostates and non-believers after Christ returns and is rejected and mocked by his followers, like he stated in the Parable of the Tenants, but turns out in the end to stand up for Christians and the Bible, validating them both once and for all

They'll feel like they were sitting in a lake of fire, I bet

 

[chessman]

By all the scriptures I have given you, plus what FreeGrace has given you It's your choice to ignore the scriptures.

I’ve ignored none of the Scriptures either of you have posted, nor your comments about them. The fact is, none of what you posted say what The Beasts in Revelation are (men or demon spirits) whereas the verses I have posted numerous times do say exactly what they represent (demons).

the Dragon (Satan) gives power to as these men speak as the Dragon (Satan) gives them utterance.

By making the comment above, it is you who seem to be ignoring what Rev 16 says directly about The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet in preference to your assumptions (they are men), all the while accusing me of ‘ignoring Scripture’. There’s zero assumption needed in the following verses:

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false-prophet. For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.​

Revelation 16:13-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:13-14&version=DLNT

And you didn’t answer my previous question:

From what you know about Revelation, do these Beasts do signs?

Yes or no, do The Beasts spoken of in John’s visions do signs?

 

[brujaq]

It's just the sense of major embarrassment felt by apostates and non-believers after Christ returns and is rejected and mocked by his followers, like he stated in the Parable of the Tenants, but turns out in the end to stand up for Christians and the Bible, validating them both once and for all

They'll feel like they were sitting in a lake of fire, I bet

I think death is conscious and self awareness but void of any, not even .000001% of life, none .. It is so horrible x's infinity there is no way to imagine even a small part without a supernatural revelation .. I had a dream once and it affected my whole life, talk to anyone who's had a revelation of being out of the presence of God and away from life .. Any one who teaches ''no eternal hell' are promoting false hope to those who are perishing without Jesus..

 

[FreeGrace]

That’s my point, there’s nothing about The Beasts there. Because 2 Thess 2:8 is about the man of lawlessness and The Beast and The False Prophet are demons doing signs.

The context of 2 Thess 2 is about the one ruler anti-christ who the Bible calls the beast.

 

[chessman]

The context of 2 Thess 2 is about the one ruler anti-christ who the Bible calls the beast.

The Bible attaches many heads to the Beast spanning 1,000’s of years.

 

[Apousía]

I think death is conscious and self awareness but void of any, not even .000001% of life, none .. It is so horrible x's infinity there is no way to imagine even a small part without a supernatural revelation .. I had a dream once and it affected my whole life, talk to anyone who's had a revelation of being out of the presence of God and away from life .. Any one who teaches ''no eternal hell' are promoting false hope to those who are perishing without Jesus..

Interesting, thanks

The construction of the word " Hades " in Greek certainly says nothing about a fiery place you go when you die

In fact, that's not even close to what the construction of the word is based on, although you yourself literally mentioned the basis for the word when you said " being out of the presence of God "

Cheers

 

[for_his_glory]

Was I here on page 1?

Most people when they join religious forums read the rules tab and the mission statement. Or statement of faith , as it is sometimes called.
Relative to this thread, and why I wonder how this can argue on for 34 pages when the Bible is clear and so is the Statement of Faith.


Personally, I think a great addition to that tab would be a link to a one page information resource for those like what you describe. Those who are not of Christ and seeking, but not yet finding. Rather than read through discussions that we all know can become pretty hearted because we're passionate about our faith ,why not have a link in the SoF tab info at the top that links to a page entitled something like, "How To Be Saved".

That would be a beautiful addition for those seekers. Something short and precise so the seeker can say they've found.

The Bible is clear, but our understandings not so much at times. I don't like arguing and will not stoop to its level or fighting over the word of God. There are times when repetition is a good thing as even I have seen certain things I have missed in the word as someone else may explain it better and brings the word to a clearer light.

Each header has rules for conduct, but not everyone's conduct meets those rules and that is when the moderators step in to keep order. Each header has many different topics of discussion as someone who is seeking can pick from them as there are many conversations about faith and Gods grace. One needs to start with the OP in order to understand the things like here on page 38 that are being discussed. Do we always agree with each other, no, but it's up to each one to study for themselves.