The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[chessman]

When I read that God "can destroy both soul and body in hell," I correctly understand that it does not say God "will destroy both soul and body in hell."

If you read Luke’s account of Jesus’ same teaching it does provide evidence that He will show this authority.

But I will show you whom you should fear: fear the one who has authority, after the killing, to throw you into hell! Yes, I tell you, fear this one!​

Luke 12:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:5&version=LEB

But evidence doesn’t always convince people.

 

[Free]

If you read Luke’s account of Jesus’ same teaching it does provide evidence that He will show this authority.

But I will show you whom you should fear: fear the one who has authority, after the killing, to throw you into hell! Yes, I tell you, fear this one!​

Luke 12:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:5&version=LEB

But evidence doesn’t always convince people.

This is not at all evidence. A plain reading clearly has Jesus's showing them whom to fear as being done by his statement of comparison. This is no different from Jesus saying, "But I will tell you whom you should fear." There is not a single thing to suggest that Jesus is saying that it will be the case that souls will be destroyed in hell. There is no way, grammatically or otherwise, to get the understanding you are proposing from this verse.

Luk 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him! (ESV)

 

[billybalke]

Does it destroy the body and the soul ? Please post those scriptures that say that. Please. Seriously.

Please refer to your profile page.

To be deep in scripture is to cease being Catholic, Protestant, Jew and Calvinist

 

[FreeGrace]

An obvious and plain teaching of torment, right?
An obvious and plain teaching of torment with burning sulfur, right? (This is why I object to the description of annihilation as just simply ceasing to exist. It leaves out Biblical teaching to the contrary)

What I've got from your posts is that the soul of the unbeliever will be destroyed. That means ceasing to exist. How that happens is much less relevant, because you've placed no time limit on being destroyed.

So, what is the time frame for the soul to be destroyed.

An obvious and plain teaching of torment with burning sulfur IN THE PRESENCE OF the Holy angels and The Lamb, right?

For how long, since your view seems to be that the soul will cease to exist.

Does your answer to the lost’s consignment in The Lake of Fire include the Holy angels and The Lamb of God present in the Lake of Fire?

They are present WHEN God casts the angels and mankind into the lake of fire. That's good enough for me.

Your view fails to acknowledge that the torment lasts for ever and ever. That proves that no soul will cease to exist.

A soul that no longer exists cannot be tormented, no how, no way.

My answer is this passage speaks of their torment with burning brimstone PRIOR to their consignment to the Lake of Fire. As those in S&G experienced.

So what is the meaning of Rev 20:10-15 then?

If my view was the lost ‘simply cease to exist’ without first experiencing torment with burning brimstone , then I’d have a bad view.

So what's the time frame for tormenting in your view? The Bible view is for ever and ever.

Do you think this verse teaches the lost are tormented forever in Hell or is it teaching the lost are tormented with burning sulfur IN THE PRESENCE of the Holy angels the Lamb (returned to reap the Earth)?

I take Rev 20:10-15 literally. Just as the fallen angels and beast and false prophet will be tormented for ever and ever in the lake of fire, so will all humans who are cast into the lake of fire.

I find no Scripture that differentiates between fallen angels/beast/false prophet with humans.

Proof positive that there will be no rest for the lost. It’s not my view that the totally destroyed lost “rest”. How can a destroyed soul “rest”?

My point exactly. If there will be "no rest for the lost", then how can the soul be destroyed (cease to exist)?

Your view still has holes in it.

 

[Justicewolf]

Please refer to your profile page.

Please refer to yours now.

To be deep in scripture is to cease being Catholic, Protestant, Jew and Calvinist

And Armenian. Don't forget that. And Amen! We are all one in Christ Jesus. There is no male , nor female, no Jew nor Gentile. We are all one in Christ. Just as all unrepented sinners are one in their eternal destiny as well.
May God's grace fall on as many as possible with open hearts to hear his calling , before they perish in this life.

 

[Justicewolf]

Of course I believe God, that is rather the point.

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (ESV)

When I read that God "can destroy both soul and body in hell," I correctly understand that it does not say God "will destroy both soul and body in hell." Be careful in making Scripture say something it does not.

So in your belief it is then an elective? What else would happen to the body and soul in Hell if it were not destroyed there? Scripture proofs please.

 

[Free]

So in your belief it is then an elective?

Is what an elective and what do you mean “elective”?

What else would happen to the body and soul in Hell if it were not destroyed there? Scripture proofs please.

My point is that the verses given in support of the soul being destroyed in hell don’t actually say that that will be the case.

Don’t you find it odd that Death—physical death—gets thrown into hell?

 

[Justicewolf]

Is what an elective and what do you mean “elective”?

In other wording, it may or may not occur.

My point is that the verses given in support of the soul being destroyed in hell don’t actually say that that will be the case.

Don’t you find it odd that Death—physical death—gets thrown into hell?

I find it odd that I'm debating what is a pov that the Bible doesn't actually mean what it says about Hell.

Luke 16:19-31
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man’s table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was being tormented, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side. 24 He called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in agony in these flames.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 Besides all this, between you and us a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who might want to pass from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us.’ 27 He said, ‘Then, father, I beg you to send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—that he may warn them, so that they will not also come into this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them.’ 30 He said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”


In my view a great article .
Hell: Spiritual or Physical or Both?

Copied from there.
"In sum, although it is an intriguing notion to think that hell is a place merely of spiritual separation from God, we must reckon with the biblical teaching that this is the fundamental nature of hell, but that such a description does not account for all the particulars. Further, one has to answer the question: Why, then, are non-believers resurrected if hell is only spiritual? The whole point of the resurrection is to reunite body and soul. God could easily send souls directly to hell. But he does not. He raises all people from the dead and then sends that person to hell." https://bible.org/article/hell-spiritual-or-physical-or-both

 

[Corn Pop]

Thank you, kiwidan, for reminding me of what I read this morning during my devotions, from Rev 14:10-11
10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

If the soul of an unbeliever is destroyed (ceases to exist), then how are the statements "smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever" and "there will be no rest day or night" relevant?

I don't believe chessman will have any answers for these questions.

I was wondering what the Lamb and the Angels are doing present at the Lake of Fire. If they are present that means they are at the lake of fire as the scripture says. In the presence of the angels and Lamb.

 

[Justicewolf]

I was wondering what the
Lamb and the Angels are doing present at the Lake of Fire. If they are present that means they are at the lake of fire as the scripture says. In the presence of the angels and Lamb.

God is in Hell too remember. Psalm 139:Where can I go from your spirit? Or where can I flee from your presence?8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, you are there.

And of course, because God is omni-present.

 

[chessman]

Your view fails to acknowledge that the torment lasts for ever and ever.

Umm, your view assumes that the lost will be tormented forever. I guess because you’ve been told that for so long you think it’s Biblical.

Zero verses say that about the lost. Including Rev 20:10-15.

So what is the meaning of Rev 20:10-15 then?

Asked and answered already.
It means exactly what it says. Nothing more and nothing less.

And the devil, the one deceiving them, was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur— where both the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented by day and by night forever and ever.​

Revelation 20:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:10&version=DLNT

The Devil and his angels are not humans. They have no earthly bodies or souls to be destroyed in Hell. What’s your point?

So what's the time frame for tormenting in your view? The Bible view is for ever and ever.

Same as the Lord’s and Peter’s:

then the Lord knows- how to deliver godly ones from a trial and reserve unrighteous ones for the day of judgment while being punished,​

2 Peter 2:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Peter 2:9&version=DLNT

A day!

I take Rev 20:10-15 literally. Just as the fallen angels and beast and false prophet will be tormented for ever and ever in the lake of fire, so will all humans who are cast into the lake of fire.

To take Rev 20:10-15 literally is to understand it says torment forever and ever about The Devil, the Beast and The False Prophet. The Devil and his demons are not humans. Never have been, never will be. It says zilch about the lost humans. Or cats or dogs.

I find no Scripture that differentiates between fallen angels/beast/false prophet with humans.

Here:

And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the glory of the heavenly is one kind, and the glory of the earthly is different.​

1 Corinthians 15:40 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:40&version=DLNT

Why make what is different the same?

For how long, since your view seems to be that the soul will cease to exist.

The day.

A soul that no longer exists cannot be tormented, no how, no way.

Seems Logical.
Is it logical to claim Rev 20:10-15 is talking about lost human souls?

My point exactly. If there will be "no rest for the lost", then how can the soul be destroyed (cease to exist)?

???
Is a destroyed soul resting?

 

[billybalke]

Umm, your view assumes that the lost will be tormented forever. I guess because you’ve been told that for so long you think it’s Biblical.

Zero verses say that about the lost. Including Rev 20:10-15.


Asked and answered already.
It means exactly what it says. Nothing more and nothing less.

And the devil, the one deceiving them, was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur— where both the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented by day and by night forever and ever.​

Revelation 20:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:10&version=DLNT

The Devil and his angels are not humans. They have no earthly bodies or souls to be destroyed in Hell. What’s your point?


Same as the Lord’s and Peter’s:

then the Lord knows- how to deliver godly ones from a trial and reserve unrighteous ones for the day of judgment while being punished,​

2 Peter 2:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Peter 2:9&version=DLNT

A day!


To take Rev 20:10-15 literally is to understand it says torment forever and ever about The Devil, the Beast and The False Prophet. The Devil and his demons are not humans. Never have been, never will be. It says zilch about the lost humans. Or cats or dogs.


Here:

And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the glory of the heavenly is one kind, and the glory of the earthly is different.​

1 Corinthians 15:40 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:40&version=DLNT

Why make what is different the same?



The day.


Seems Logical.
Is it logical to claim Rev 20:10-15 is talking about lost human souls?


???
Is a destroyed soul resting?

Is the "false prophet" human vs.10? Are the "whosoever", vs. 15 humankind?

To be deep in scripture is to cease being Catholic, Protestant, Jew and Calvinist

 

[Free]

I find it odd that I'm debating what is a pov that the Bible doesn't actually mean what it says about Hell.

In what way is what I have given "a pov that the Bible doesn't actually mean what it says about Hell"?

Luke 16:19-31
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man’s table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was being tormented, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side. 24 He called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in agony in these flames.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 Besides all this, between you and us a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who might want to pass from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us.’ 27 He said, ‘Then, father, I beg you to send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—that he may warn them, so that they will not also come into this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them.’ 30 He said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

What does this passage have to do with anything we are discussing? I hope you realize that posting Scripture without giving your reasons as to how it pertains to the discussion, is most often pointless.

In my view a great article .
Hell: Spiritual or Physical or Both?

Copied from there.
"In sum, although it is an intriguing notion to think that hell is a place merely of spiritual separation from God, we must reckon with the biblical teaching that this is the fundamental nature of hell, but that such a description does not account for all the particulars. Further, one has to answer the question: Why, then, are non-believers resurrected if hell is only spiritual? The whole point of the resurrection is to reunite body and soul. God could easily send souls directly to hell. But he does not. He raises all people from the dead and then sends that person to hell." https://bible.org/article/hell-spiritual-or-physical-or-both

What does this have to do with anything?

 

[chessman]

Luk 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him! (ESV)

Have you ever in your life heard of a death warning from something that will not literally kill you?

Poison warnings are posted because drinking poison will kill you.

Plus, you’re totally avoiding the evidence from the parallel passages as understood together:
Luke says Jesus has the authority to cast the lost into Hell!
Matthew phrases this same authority as the ability to destroy both soul and body in Hell.

If you believe Jesus will cast the lost into Hell, via Luke’s account of this discussion then why not also believe He will destroy both soul and body in Hell via Matthew’s since these two inspired authors are describing Jesus’ same authority (just using different points from their discussion).

And do not be fearing anything from the ones killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. But be fearing instead the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=DLNT

But I will show you Whom you should fear— fear the One having the authority to throw into Gehenna after the killing. Yes, I say to you, fear this One.​

Luke 12:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:5&version=DLNT

[opinion deleted]

 

[chessman]

Is the "false prophet" human vs.10?

No. Neither is The Beast. They are The Devil’s demons:

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false-prophet. For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.​

Revelation 16:13-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:13-14&version=DLNT

Are the "whosoever", vs. 15 humankind?

Yes.

 

[Justicewolf]

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (MOUNCE)
they (hostis) will experience (tinō) the punishment (dikē) of eternal (aiōnios) destruction (olethros),
away from (apo) the presence (prosōpon) of the(ho) Lord (kyrios) and (kai) from(apo) the(ho) glory(doxa) of(ho) his(autos) power(ischus).


ὄλεθρος (olethros)
Strong: G3639

GK: G3897

perdition, destruction, 1 Cor. 5:5, 1 Thess. 5:3; 2 Thess. 1:9; 1 Tim. 6:9



αἰώνιος (aiōnios)
Strong: G166

GK: G173
indeterminate as to duration, eternal, everlasting

See everywhere aiōnios appears in the New Testament via teknia.com.


.Just as the righteous in Christ have eternal life, so too do the unrighteous, the unredeemed, have eternal punishment.
Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Free]

Have you ever in your life heard of a death warning from something that will not literally kill you?

Poison warnings are posted because drinking poison will kill you.

Plus, you’re totally avoiding the evidence from the parallel passages as understood together:
Luke says Jesus has the authority to cast the lost into Hell!
Matthew phrases this same authority as the ability to destroy both soul and body in Hell.

If you believe Jesus will cast the lost into Hell, via Luke’s account of this discussion then why not also believe He will destroy both soul and body in Hell via Matthew’s since these two inspired authors are describing Jesus’ same authority (just using different points from their discussion).

And do not be fearing anything from the ones killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. But be fearing instead the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=DLNT

But I will show you Whom you should fear— fear the One having the authority to throw into Gehenna after the killing. Yes, I say to you, fear this One.​

Luke 12:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:5&version=DLNT

It is intuitively obvious to the most casual unbiased observer that; throw into Gehenna = destroy both soul and body is n Gehenna

There is zero evidence to support your claim, hence I am avoiding nothing. People will get cast into hell but that is not at all we are addressing.

 

[chessman]

There is zero evidence to support your claim, hence I am avoiding nothing.

Yes there is.

 

[Free]

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (MOUNCE)
they (hostis) will experience (tinō) the punishment (dikē) of eternal (aiōnios) destruction (olethros),
away from (apo) the presence (prosōpon) of the(ho) Lord (kyrios) and (kai) from(apo) the(ho) glory(doxa) of(ho) his(autos) power(ischus).


ὄλεθρος (olethros)
Strong: G3639

GK: G3897

perdition, destruction, 1 Cor. 5:5, 1 Thess. 5:3; 2 Thess. 1:9; 1 Tim. 6:9



αἰώνιος (aiōnios)
Strong: G166

GK: G173
indeterminate as to duration, eternal, everlasting

See everywhere aiōnios appears in the New Testament via teknia.com.


.Just as the righteous in Christ have eternal life, so too do the unrighteous, the unredeemed, have eternal punishment.
Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

What does this have to do with anything? Please address someone and/or provide an explanation as to why you think this is relevant to the discussion.

 

[Free]

Yes there is.

No, there isn't. You used a verse to say that God will destroy both body and soul in hell. It doesn't say that. End of story.