The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[PeterJens]

I said:
"Your view fails to acknowledge that the torment lasts for ever and ever."

My view was informed by Rev 20:10-15. If the beast and false prophet (humans) will be tormented forever and ever, why wouldn't all the other humans (v.15) also be tormented the same time? You've not explained that.

I have to be very careful here. I have always been reluctant to talk about judgement, because that is the Lords
nature to judge and exercise it. What I want to do is highlight levels of judgement.

It appears that direct rebellion against God, face to face justifies eternal torture, because one is rejecting the
essence of everything and the ultimate reference point of existance.

Most of what people reject is confussion and their own sinfulness blinding them to the obvious.
This creates a real innocence and distortion which the Lord in His mercy regards as only worthy
of total destruction.

Those who take the mark of the beast are regarded differently
"They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."
rev 14:10-11

Now I am a fearful man about my Lord. I have seen His power and His judgement.
So I am reluctant to state anything other than that which He has written for this is
all about His intentions and actions.

Now I hope I have your patience. If John is pointing out this special status of those
who worship the beast and its image, it also means the rest will not have this position
but something less, ie total destruction.

Now my brothers and sisters in Christ. We are servants of our King and He is the one
who declares His truth, we can just reflect on it and walk in faith by it.

So I would encourage you, the Lord is good, and His was are perfect and just. The more
I learn the more this confirms in my heart How great is the King we follow, Praise the Lord,
Amen.

 

[FreeGrace]

I yield to the Scriptures, not tradition or traditional Bible scholars.

I, too, yield to the Scriptures.

So, let's see what Scripture says about where the beast and false prophet come from.

Rev 13:1 - The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
v.2 - The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.
v.3 - One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.

Scholars believe that "the sea" is a reference to humanity, the human race. Maybe you have further insight that scholars don't have. So i believe the beast comes from humanity, based on Rev 13:1.

Second, the dragon, who is the devil himself, gives power and authority to this human leader who becomes the one world ruler.

Third, the beast suffered a fatal wound, which had been healed. How can this be a reference to any angel, fallen or elect? I just don't see it.

Angels cannot be wounded, and certainly not fatally. Only humans can suffer wounds that heal. Or are fatal.

v.11 - Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.

This 2nd beast comes out of the earth. OK, a different description from the 1st beast. However, it's still described as a beast, like the 1st one, which is human, from v.1.

This 2nd beast is a religious ruler (false prophet) who forces mankind to worship the 1st beast.

This is why I believe both beasts are human beings. And I still believe that you've misunderstood the verse about spirits who come out of the mouths of the dragon, beast and false prophet.

 

[gr8grace3]

John the Apostle.

For they are the spirits of demons performing signs that go out to the kings of the whole inhabited world, to gather them for the battle of the great day of God the All-Powerful.​

Revelation 16:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:14&version=LEB

The demons perform signs and gather the tribes of people in John’s vision:

In John’s Vision, a Beast rises up out of the Sea, performs signs and rules over all humans.

And I saw coming up out of the sea a beast that had ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns ten royal headbands, and on its heads a blasphemous name. And a mouth was given to him speaking great things and blasphemies, and authority to act was given to him for forty-two months. And he opened his mouth for blasphemies toward God, to blaspheme his name and his dwelling, those who live in heaven. And it was given to him to make war with the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given to him over every tribe and people and language and nation.​

Revelation 13:1,5-7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 13:1,5-7&version=LEB

and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God, and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
1 John 4:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 John 4:3&version=LEB​

The Beast that rises from the Sea is the ‘one world ruler’ within John’s vision. And again is one of the three demons performing signs throughout. It is John (not me) who says they are demons (not humans) performing signs in Rev 16:14 and the spirts of antichrist (anti-Messiah) in 1 John 4:3.

Which is why they get banished to Hell by Christ forever PRIOR to the Judgment of all humans.

I yield to the Scriptures, not tradition or traditional Bible scholars.

Chessman, Do you believe it is in the realm of possibility that satan and his demons do these signs and 'deeds' through the agency of a human body? IE: demon possession?

And from my studies, one cannot be demon possessed without consent.

Why would anyone be 'awed' by a demon getting killed by a sword and then raising from the dead? But, if he was human, that would be pretty convincing.

Rev 13:3~~New American Standard Bible
I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who take the mark of the beast are regarded differently
"They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."
rev 14:10-11

Yet, Rev 20:10-15 shows that all of lost humanity (those who don't possess eternal life) will be thrown into the same lake of fire as the dragon, beast and false prophet.

Now I am a fearful man about my Lord. I have seen His power and His judgement.
So I am reluctant to state anything other than that which He has written for this is
all about His intentions and actions.

I believe Rev 20:10-15 gives us a clear picture of what will happen with unsaved humanity.

Now I hope I have your patience. If John is pointing out this special status of those
who worship the beast and its image, it also means the rest will not have this position
but something less, ie total destruction.

I don't see this in Scripture. If an unsaved soul will cease to exist after this life, what fear is there of eternity for them? None at all.

 

[gr8grace3]

This 2nd beast comes out of the earth. OK, a different description from the 1st beast. However, it's still described as a beast, like the 1st one, which is human, from v.1.

I have heard some teachers teach that the first beast coming out of the sea represents the gentiles. The revived roman empire. The political ruler.
The second beast, coming out of the land, is the religious/civil ruler representing/counterfeiting Israel. Both working as a tag team to gain ALL authority.

 

[chessman]

And another sign appeared in heaven, and behold, a great fiery red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven royal headbands.​

...

And I saw coming up out of the sea a beast that had ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns ten royal headbands, and on its heads a blasphemous name.​

...

And I saw another beast coming up from the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he was speaking like a dragon.​

Revelation 12:3,13:1,11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 12:3,13:1,11&version=LEB

Humans come from their mothers and fathers, not directly from the Sea or the Earth. The saved are “born again” from above. But the lost are not “born again”. These things (Sea/Earth) are “in the world”, from the world, not from the Father. But this “coming up”, I believe is what John was referencing in his 1st Epistle:

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him, because everything that is in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the arrogance of material possessions—is not from the Father, but is from the world. And the world is passing away, and its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever. Children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen, by which we know that it is the last hour.​

1 John 2:15-18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 John 2:15-18&version=LEB

Humans don’t “rise”, they are born.

Scholars believe that "the sea" is a reference to humanity, the human race. Maybe you have further insight that scholars don't have.

Close, the Earth and Sea represents the dark and gloomy Gentile nations beyound the Sea (of Gallilee) heavily influenced by demons, walking in darkness. That is, before Christ ripped the veil.

in order that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah would be fulfilled, who said, “Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, toward the sea, on the other side of the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles — the people who sit in darkness have seen a great light, and the ones who sit in the land and shadow of death, a light has dawned on them.”​

Matthew 4:14-16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 4:14-16&version=LEB

Which Jesus says, right after this:

Again, the devil takes Him to a very high mountain and shows Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, “I will give all these things to You if, having fallen- down, You give-worship to me”. Then Jesus says to him, “Go-away, Satan! For it has been written: ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only’” [Deut 6:13].​

Matthew 4:8-10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 4:8-10&version=DLNT


But as Paul Harvey would say...

But there will be no gloom for those who were in distress. In former times he treated the land of Zebulun and Naphtali with contempt, but in the future he will honor the way of the sea beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations. The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; light has shined on those who lived in a land of darkness. For every boot that marches and shakes the earth and garment rolled in blood will be for burning—fire fuel. For a child has been born for us; a son has been given to us. And the dominion will be on his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. His dominion will grow continually, and to peace there will be no end on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and sustain it with justice and righteousness now and forever. The zeal of Yahweh of hosts will do this.​

Isaiah 9:1-2,5-7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Isaiah 9:1-2,5-7&version=LEB


The seven heads represent seven kingdoms and the 10 horns represent complete world government. But my point is, these governments get their power from The Dragon (Satan), The Beast and The False Prophet.

Remember, John not me, said theses demons (plural) do signs.

...

 

[chessman]

Do you believe it is in the realm of possibility that satan and his demons do these signs and 'deeds' through the agency of a human body? IE: demon possession?

Of course. But didn’t you just say Satan and his demons? What demons??? The Beast and The False Prophet!

They are referred to as “the unholy trinity”, for good reason to numerous to post. But I see no reason to believe John meant for us to understand The Beast or The False Prophet as humans. None. And he specifically called them demons (plural) in Rev 16:13-14.

And from my studies, one cannot be demon possessed without consent.

I don’t necessarily disagree with your point (though I think parents can bring in the occult to a household).

Why would anyone be 'awed' by a demon getting killed by a sword and then raising from the dead?

It has been pointed out by Greek scholars that John seems to be very precise with his choice of words. Specifically pointing out the underlined words below

I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed.

 

[PeterJens]

Yet, Rev 20:10-15 shows that all of lost humanity (those who don't possess eternal life) will be thrown into the same lake of fire as the dragon, beast and false prophet.
I believe Rev 20:10-15 gives us a clear picture of what will happen with unsaved humanity.
I don't see this in Scripture. If an unsaved soul will cease to exist after this life, what fear is there of eternity for them? None at all.

Judgement has never been about the lost person but about those who enter into eternal life.
Just think a little. The lost are lost, they will either cease to exist or be punished eternally.
Judgement is not the thing that motivates people to follow the Lord, it is love, and the freedom
Christ brings. Judgement is the inevitable result for something that does not work.

If you buy a car, the wheels fall off, the engine ceases, the brakes fail, you crush the car and get
rid of it. It is judgement on the car, but it has no purpose because the one for which it is made has
failed to be fulfilled.

Now the lost believe they can make and grab as much of life while they have it and hope that the next
life will be maybe better. What a shock when they have got it all wrong. But then they will simply not
understand or comprehend what is going on, because that is the point, they never comprehended it on
earth so they will do no better when all they are filled with is hatred of the Lord and His ways.

What has been illuminating to me is believers who hate the sermon on the mount and feel it condemns
them and is the work of the enemy. You will notice who they feel uses it, and how they feel evil is brought
into their life, when light is shone on the sin the continually abide and rest in. Strangely these same people
condemn me for rejoicing in Christ, His word and walking in His ways as evil and legalistic and being a
pharisee. Someone when as far as to suggest I was more evil than murdering someone.

I think this demonstrates how far an unrepentant heart will go to justify their behaviour and abide in sin
while claiming God is fine with this, and judgement is not for them. So the fear of Hell simply does not
work to bring people to Christ and God, or help they find the meaning of love. It is why Christ talks 90% about
loving people and a little about judgement.

 

[chessman]

Second, the dragon, who is the devil himself, gives power and authority to this human leader who becomes the one world ruler.

This assumes the one world ruler is human.

The Dragon is refered to as the ‘false-father’ (he gives power to the other two).

Third, the beast suffered a fatal wound, which had been healed. How can this be a reference to any angel, fallen or elect? I just don't see it.

Close, The Beast is made to appear as if he was slain. This is why The Beast is referred to by scholars as the second person of the un-holy trinity ( ‘the false-christ”). He falsely appears to die, but doesn’t really die. Because he’s not human.

Humans do not simply appear to be slaughtered to death when their heads are cut off, they die.

Angels cannot be wounded, and certainly not fatally. Only humans can suffer wounds that heal. Or are fatal.

Demons can appear as humans and speak like a dragon.

And one of its heads appeared as though slaughtered to death, and its fatal wound had been healed. And the whole earth was astonished and followed after the beast.​

Revelation 13:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 13:3&version=LEB

Can humans have their heads cut off and “appear as though slaughtered to death”?

v.11 - Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.

Did the second beast do signs?

For they are the spirits of demons performing signs that go out to the kings of the whole inhabited world, to gather them for the battle of the great day of God the All-Powerful.​

Revelation 16:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:14&version=LEB

Then why are you still arguing for the humanity of the three who performed signs in John’s vision?

 

[whatgoeshere?]

I yield to the Scriptures, not tradition or traditional Bible scholars.

AMEN! It is a wonder to ever find any Christian that opposes them.

 

[FreeGrace]

Humans don’t “rise”, they are born.

Of course they do. They rise to power.

Remember, John not me, said theses demons (plural) do signs.
...

Remember what marked an apostle of Christ:
I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles. 2 Cor 12:12.

Oh, and apostles were humans.

 

[FreeGrace]

Of course. But didn’t you just say Satan and his demons? What demons??? The Beast and The False Prophet!

They are referred to as “the unholy trinity”, for good reason to numerous to post. But I see no reason to believe John meant for us to understand The Beast or The False Prophet as humans. None. And he specifically called them demons (plural) in Rev 16:13-14.

NO!! John did NOT call the beast or false prophet demons. He said that spirits came out of the mouths of the beast and false prophet.

This would indicate that the beast and false prophet were demon possessed.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"Yet, Rev 20:10-15 shows that all of lost humanity (those who don't possess eternal life) will be thrown into the same lake of fire as the dragon, beast and false prophet.
I believe Rev 20:10-15 gives us a clear picture of what will happen with unsaved humanity.
I don't see this in Scripture. If an unsaved soul will cease to exist after this life, what fear is there of eternity for them? None at all."

Judgement has never been about the lost person but about those who enter into eternal life.

Consider Rev 20:12- And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

I disagree with you as does Scripture.

Just think a little. The lost are lost, they will either cease to exist or be punished eternally.

Scripture has already told us what happens to the unsaved. Because they don't possess eternal life, they will be cast into the lake of fire, which we know will exist for ever and ever, per Rev 20:10.

 

[FreeGrace]

This assumes the one world ruler is human.

Your assumption is incorrect.

The Dragon is refered to as the ‘false-father’ (he gives power to the other two).

This is the devil himself giving power to 2 humans, who become demon possessed.

Close, The Beast is made to appear as if he was slain.

Then explain this verse: One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. Rev 13:3

The verse didn't say the wound appeared to have been healed, but that it HAD BEEN healed.

Humans do not simply appear to be slaughtered to death when their heads are cut off, they die.

The Bible didn't say what kind of fatal wound. You're presuming.

Can humans have their heads cut off and “appear as though slaughtered to death”?

Where does one get the idea that the beasst's fatal wound was decapitation?

 

[chessman]

This would indicate that the beast and false prophet were demon possessed.

So is the Dragon a demon possessed human on your view since John also saw something like frogs coming out of His mouth too?

He said that spirits came out of the mouths of the beast and false prophet.

And out of the mouth of the Dragon.
Then he said they are demons performing signs.

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false-prophet. For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.​

Revelation 16:13-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:13-14&version=DLNT


It is the Dragon, the Beast and the False Prophet that perform the signs of John’s vision. Thus, they are demons performing signs. Simple.

NO!! John did NOT call the beast or false prophet demons.

Did he call them humans or demon possessed humans?

Are you suggesting that an unclean spirit coming out of their mouths indicates they are demon possessed humans yet an unclean spirit coming out of the Dragon’s doesn’t carry this same indicator for you??? In the very same context and sentence???

 

[chessman]

This is the devil himself giving power to 2 humans, who become demon possessed.

When do they become demon possessed? When something looking like frogs come out of their mouths? Is this when Satan also becomes demon possessed?
And where does the Bible say they are humans?

The verse didn't say the wound appeared to have been healed, but that it HAD BEEN healed.

It is a head slain by the sword which appears as if death occurs to the Beast which the false prophet ‘heals’ and deceives the people into thinking he has healing powers. And again, these ARE the signs John says are performed by demons (not apostles).

And I saw one of his heads as- if having been slain to death. And his wound of death was cured. And the whole earth was caused-to-marvel [while following] after the beast.​

Revelation 13:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 13:3&version=DLNT

And he deceives the ones dwelling upon the earth because-of the signs which it was given him to do in the presence of the beast— telling the ones dwelling upon the earth to make an image to the beast who has the wound of the sword and lived.​

Revelation 13:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 13:14&version=DLNT

The Bible didn't say what kind of fatal wound. You're presuming.

It’s a head slain by the sword.

Where does one get the idea that the beasst's fatal wound was decapitation?

From reading Rev 13:3 and Rev 13:14.

Besides ‘Bible scholars’ saying that beasts rising from the Sea and Earth represents humans and frogs coming out of beasts’ mouths represents demon possessed humans (two out of three times but evidently not out of Dragon mouths) where do you get the idea from Scripture that the Beast and the False Prophet are humans?

 

[chessman]

So, let's see what Scripture says about where the beast and false prophet come from.

Let’s see indeed where Scripture says they come from:

And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. And they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
...
And he [the Dragon] stood on the sand of the sea.
And I saw coming up out of the sea a beast ...and the dragon gave it his power and his throne and great authority.
...
And I saw another beast coming up from the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he was speaking like a dragon. And he exercises all the authority of the first beast on behalf of him, and he causes the earth and those who live in it to worship the first beast whose fatal wound had been healed. And he performs great signs, so that he even causes fire from heaven to come down to the earth before people. And he deceives those who live on the earth because of the signs that it has been granted to him to perform on behalf of the beast, telling those who live on the earth to make an image to the beast who has the wound of the sword and yet lived.​

Revelation 12:7-9,17-13:2,11-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 12:7-9,17-13:2,11-14&version=LEB

The Dragon and his angels where thrown down to Earth from Heaven after fighting with Michael and his angels. Simple.

 

[gr8grace3]

The Beast that rises from the Sea is the ‘one world ruler’ within John’s vision. And again is one of the three demons performing signs throughout. It is John (not me) who says they are demons (not humans) performing signs in Rev 16:14 and the spirts of antichrist (anti-Messiah) in 1 John 4:3.

Where does this man fit in then?

2 Thess 2:3~~New American Standard Bible
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

man~~
anthrópos: a man, human, mankind
Original Word: ἄνθρωπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: anthrópos
Phonetic Spelling: (anth'-ro-pos)
Short Definition: a man, one of the human race
Definition: a man, one of the human race.

Rev 17:8~~New American Standard Bible
"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

 

[chessman]

Where does this man fit in then?

2 Thess 2:3~~New American Standard Bible
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Were it fits. Evil man. The SON OF destruction.

and that we may be delivered from out-of-place and evil people. For faith is not possessed by everyone.​

2 Thessalonians 3:2 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 3:2&version=DLNT

If the above Scripture leads someone to yield to this Scripture that says that there are evil (out-of-place) people in the world, then shouldn’t that same method lead someone to believe it is demons doing the signs of John’s visions from the following Scripture?

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false-prophet. For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.​

Revelation 16:13-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:13-14&version=DLNT

 

[FreeGrace]

So is the Dragon a demon possessed human on your view since John also saw something like frogs coming out of His mouth too?

That's not what I said, or implied. I said: "This would indicate that the beast and false prophet were demon possessed."

The dragon is obviously the devil.

And out of the mouth of the Dragon.
Then he said they are demons performing signs.

Both demons and humans are capable of performing signs. Esp when the humans are demon possessed.

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false-prophet. For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.​

Revelation 16:13-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:13-14&version=DLNT

The spirits come out of the mouths of the 3. I cannot explain why a demon would come out of the mouth of the devil. But the beast and false prophet come from the see and the earth. This does not describe where demons come from.

It is the Dragon, the Beast and the False Prophet that perform the signs of John’s vision. Thus, they are demons performing signs. Simple.

Not if you allow for demon possession of the beast and fp.

Did he call them humans or demon possessed humans?

He didn't call them either.

Are you suggesting that an unclean spirit coming out of their mouths indicates they are demon possessed humans yet an unclean spirit coming out of the Dragon’s doesn’t carry this same indicator for you??? In the very same context and sentence???

As I said, I cannot explain that. Just as you cannot explain why any fallen angel would be described as coming from "the sea" or "from the earth".

Once again, please cite any scholar who believes that these 3 are all demons. I have never heard that before, and I've been around for nearly 7 decades. And I thought I'd heard it all.