Bible Study The Law in Romans

[jocor]

Whether you can see the circular logic you are employing or not isn't all that relevant. You focus on part 1, and miss part 2, failing to see that it also applies. Like this:

Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh

BOTH of these conditions apply. Believers walking in the Spirit STILL HAVE the lusts and temptations of the flesh, regardless. They may not "fulfil" them, but they still HAVE them.

It's a simple, but critical mistake. To fail to see this contrariness still exists is to fall headlong into hypocrisy. That which is and remains contrary to the Spirit, IS CONTRARY, period. There is no way to remedy this other than to be HONEST about this contrary position, that it's contrary with every believer, to the Spirit.

No "mistake" on my part at all. Nor did I miss "part 2". I said I totally agree the flesh is against (contrary to) the Spirit. I also agree that a person can walk in the Spirit, but STILL lust in the flesh. However, the greater degree one walks in the Spirit, the lesser degree will he lust in the flesh. That is a Scriptural fact. Yeshua walked in the Spirit to the max and, as a result, never lusted in the flesh. He is our example. Most of us fall short of that example, which is why Paul wrote what he did in Galatians 5. He was admonishing us to walk more in the Spirit so we would walk less in the flesh. The less we walk in the flesh, the more obedient we will be in the Spirit.

 

[smaller]

No "mistake" on my part at all. Nor did I miss "part 2". I said I totally agree the flesh is against (contrary to) the Spirit. I also agree that a person can walk in the Spirit, but STILL lust in the flesh.

That's why it's disingenuous to claim "legality." The flesh can't be made legal regardless of walking in the Spirit.

 

[jocor]

That's why it's disingenuous to claim "legality." The flesh can't be made legal regardless of walking in the Spirit.

I have no idea what you mean by "legality". I know the flesh can't be made anything. When the Spirit takes over, the spiritual man will obey Yahweh's laws. Lapses in walking in the Spirit will cause the flesh to be victorious at times, but upon true repentance, the Spirit will become stronger and the flesh weaker the next time temptation comes.

 

[smaller]

I have no idea what you mean by "legality". I know the flesh can't be made anything. When the Spirit takes over, the spiritual man will obey Yahweh's laws. Lapses in walking in the Spirit will cause the flesh to be victorious at times, but upon true repentance, the Spirit will become stronger and the flesh weaker the next time temptation comes.

The contrariness of the flesh exists, regardless. There is no "takes over." There is, if anything, more contrariness because of this built in conflict/contrariness. Paul shows this with himself in 1 Tim. 1:15, being the chief of sinners, after salvation.

If we make this "miraculous" discovery, that the "cause" is the tempter, we understand the conflict, and that there is no remedy >for the tempter< operating in the flesh.

With Paul, we might see that the "attack" or the "contrariness" of the tempter increases, particularly by exposure to the LAW, whereby sin/resistance/contrariness internally actually increases, because the contrariness/attack/INTERNAL WAR, is actually of the "rebel." The "resistor" to everything of God's Spirit.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I disagree the law was of death..



Deu 4:1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live,and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.
Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
Deu 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Psa 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

reba, every Scripture you wrote is true. The problem was not with the first covenant or the ten commandments, the problem was with man. (Heb. 8:7-9) The first covenant was not faultless,only because man was not Spiritual...The law was. (Heb. 7:11) Man was under the Spiritual Law by the flesh.. God led Israel out of Egypt by Grace and faith (Ex. 12:1-30). When Israel reached Mt. Sinai, He gave Israel His moral standard that would separate Israel from the rest of mankind, and He also reminds Israel how by grace, He led them out by eagles wings by their faith in Him. (Ex. 19: 3-8). Instead of asking the Lord to continue in His grace, they tell Him they will do whatever the Lord hath spoken (Ex. 19: 7-8).

Man prided himself by claiming he was perfect by obeying the law. This is the pride of all men in the flesh void of the Spirit. Before Paul received the promised Holy Spirit, he had been blameless in the law (Philippians : 3:4-6) but when Paul received the Holy Spirit the law came to life and slew him (Rom. 7:5-25) So, is the law sin? No! (Rom. 7:12). So if the law is good, did it bring death unto me? No! The law defined sin in me and made it exceedingly sinful. The law then is Spiritual, but I'am carnal, a slave to sin.
But God's promise (Heb. 8:9-13) God, through the Holy Spirit has put in us His law of love which governs our Spiritual living of the Law. (8: 1-8). Study the Scriptures as they are posted. This should answer your disagreement.

In Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[jocor]

The contrariness of the flesh exists, regardless. There is no "takes over." There is, if anything, more contrariness because of this built in conflict/contrariness. Paul shows this with himself in 1 Tim. 1:15, being the chief of sinners, after salvation.

Not true. Paul said he was "chief of sinners" or "the greatest sinner" because he blasphemed the name of Messiah and persecuted Messiah's people while he was in the flesh. That is why in verse 16 he says he obtained mercy (when he received Yeshua). After his conversion, I doubt you can find a man more obedient to the leading of the Spirit than Paul.

If we make this "miraculous" discovery, that the "cause" is the tempter, we understand the conflict, and that there is no remedy >for the tempter< operating in the flesh.

With Paul, we might see that the "attack" or the "contrariness" of the tempter increases, particularly by exposure to the LAW, whereby sin/resistance/contrariness internally actually increases, because the contrariness is actually of the "rebel." The "resistor" to everything of God's Spirit.

It is sad that this is your experience. There is a remedy. It is found in the indwelling Holy Spirit as we follow its leading. It is only when we FAIL to follow its leading that we fail to appropriate the remedy. The tempter has already been defeated. One need only flee from him through the power of the indwelling Spirit.

 

[smaller]

Decades ago, when trying to understand the "warring christian sects" of Law vs. Grace, I spent a huge amount of study time in Romans and Galatians, in studies on both sides of the isle. Putting myself in both camps, fully, to try to understand where there always seems to be this basic "rift" amongst believers.

The "veil" lifted for me in this conflict when a dear christian brother pointed out the obvious problem with both camps. I remember the logic sequence, vividly.

Who is the law for? For the lawless and sinners.

1 Timothy 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Is the devil, a SINNER?

Why, yes, the devil IS a sinner. And, as such, I might say quite entirely lawless and disobedient to boot.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Will the devil ever OBEY the law? Nope. The devil will RESIST the law to his own ending in judgments.

Where did Jesus show us where the devil IS?

Why, IN MAN!

Bingo. My law vs. grace questions were, at that point FULLY resolved. But, to get there, I then understood why the TEMPTER who does TEMPT ME will never be legal, obedient, lawful, under Grace, forgiven....or any good thing received by/from God.

And, at that point, the scriptures OPENED to my eyes. I no longer saw "JUST MAN" in the equations of scripture. I saw MAN and THE TEMPTER, the BLINDER, within man.

On that day, I saw the necessity of our Savior. Not of myself trying to be "my" own savior. Trying, quite vainly, to make the "tempter" obedient or "under Grace." It is just not going to happen.

 

[smaller]

Not true. Paul said he was "chief of sinners" or "the greatest sinner" because he blasphemed the name of Messiah and persecuted Messiah's people while he was in the flesh. That is why in verse 16 he says he obtained mercy (when he received Yeshua). After his conversion, I doubt you can find a man more obedient to the leading of the Spirit than Paul.

It is not a question of "just Paul." Which is the point of the observation. If it was about Paul who USED to be the chief of sinners I might agree. But that is not how Paul defined the matters. He said "I am," not "I was."

If we understand that temptation is in fact of the tempter, who tempts internally, we can see that Paul was talking about his own battle, and the enemy in his own flesh. And yes, the tempter himself is the worst sinner that ever existed. And that enemy does do battle with us, internally. The instant we recognize this, we can see how Paul made that conclusion.

The most vile sinner that has ever existed, tempts us, internally. And is "internal" to make those temptations.

It is sad that this is your experience.

I had to bow to the authority of scripture on this matter. That's about it.

Here's how it works:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

When I quit lying to myself about temptation of the TEMPTER not happening to me, instead seeing that it DOES, then, I saw the reality of Mark 4:15, personally. It was not a hard leap to make, honestly.

There is a remedy.

For us as believers, yes. But not for the tempter. We will not be dragging the tempter into anything of God in Christ. It simply is not going to happen.

It is found in the indwelling Holy Spirit as we follow its leading. It is only when we FAIL to follow its leading that we fail to appropriate the remedy. The tempter has already been defeated. One need only flee from him through the power of the indwelling Spirit.

It was never a question of "just us" to start with.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Paul is against "law keeping" in order to be saved and or justified. He is NOT against "law keeping" out of love for YHWH and man and as a fruit of salvation (Romans 2:13; 3:31; 7:25; 8:4, 7, etc.).

That is it jacor, law keeping out of love. The same love God had for us that we inherit by rebirth. His command was to love one another as He has loved us. What born again believer would dwell on committing adultery, or plan on stealing and what born again believer does not love the lord or shutters at using the Lords name in vain and is even grieved when someone else does. And what born again believer does not honor the Sabbath days rest he has in the finished work in our salvation. All these laws man tried to accomplish in the flesh by pride, trying to justify himself before God as though he were sinless. But the law is Spiritual

 

[jocor]

Where did Jesus show us where the devil IS?

Why, IN MAN!

Bingo. My law vs. grace questions were, at that point FULLY resolved. But, to get there, I then understood why the TEMPTER who does TEMPT ME will never be legal, obedient, lawful, under Grace, forgiven....or any good thing received by/from God.

And, at that point, the scriptures OPENED to my eyes. I no longer saw "JUST MAN" in the equations of scripture. I saw MAN and THE TEMPTER, the BLINDER, within man.

Please provide a reference to Yeshua's teaching that Satan is "IN MAN".

 

[jocor]

It is not a question of "just Paul." Which is the point of the observation. If it was about Paul who USED to be the chief of sinners I might agree. But that is not how Paul defined the matters. He said "I am," not "I was."

Yes, Paul said, "I am". The point is, he said "I am" because when he wrote it, in his mind he was the chief sinner; NOT because he kept sinning so badly after conversion, but because of the grievous sins he committed prior to conversion. In Paul's mind, those sins were so grievous that he believed it earned him the title of "chief sinner" for all time.

If we understand that temptation is in fact of the tempter, who tempts internally, we can see that Paul was talking about his own battle, and the enemy in his own flesh. And yes, the tempter himself is the worst sinner that ever existed. And that enemy does do battle with us, internally. The instant we recognize this, we can see how Paul made that conclusion.

The most vile sinner that has ever existed, tempts us, internally. And is "internal" to make those temptations.



I had to bow to the authority of scripture on this matter. That's about it.

Here's how it works:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

This verse does not teach that Satan is IN MAN. He "takes away the word that was sown in their hearts" from outside of man by deceiving them with words or various wiles he employs. He tempted Yeshua from the outside and he tempts Yeshua's disciples the same way. There is no way that Satan dwells in a believer at the same time the Holy Spirit dwells in a believer.

 

[smaller]

This verse does not teach that Satan is IN MAN.

That's the entire fulcrum point of the Gospel. And "whom" we are saved from. Mankind is universally a "slave of Satan" in our minds and hearts, which results in sin.

Here's the shortlist: Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, 1 John 3:8

He "takes away the word that was sown in their hearts" from outside of man by deceiving them with words or various wiles he employs.

The picture of Mark 4:15 and the other seed parables is to show that Satan (and his own) are overlapped with(in) the heart of mankind. There are in fact TWO parties present within what appears to a flesh sight, only an individual. Paul shows this same scriptural fact upon himself in Romans 7, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 Tim. 1:15, 2 Tim. 2:20-21. Then lays that identical understanding universally upon mankind in Romans 9 and in every teaching about sin. Paul lays the same understanding upon Israel, specifically again in the beginning of Romans 9, again in Romans 11:8, again in 2 Cor. 3:14. Jesus showed this identical fact in thousands of cases in the Gospel. In fact this scriptural reality is so entirely obvious, openly revealed and utterly transparently exposed it's nothing less than factual internal blinding in any reader that keeps them from seeing it.

Which CONFIRMS the reality of the blinding and the reality of the Gospel itself.

He tempted Yeshua from the outside

That I will acknowledge. Satan had nothing "in" Him because He was sinless in thought, Word and Deed. None of us can make that same claim. Jesus tells us that "evil" comes from within, and yes, we all still have that evil infection in our minds. Prior to salvation we didn't know it or see it, that our sin is in fact of the devil who blinds our minds/hearts. After salvation we do see it (or should if we're paying attentions) and are to reign OVER internal temptations and lusts in the flesh, but they are still there, internally, and they are still sourced to the tempter.

and he tempts Yeshua's disciples the same way. There is no way that Satan dwells in a believer at the same time the Holy Spirit dwells in a believer.

Paul denies that's the case for himself in 2 Cor. 12:7 and in many other citings. John makes the identical case in 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 3:8. Again, I'm only surprised that believers can't pinpoint this matter and are led to "insulate" themselves. I do mean they are "led" in this into denial. The flesh is vile because Satan and his minions through the avenue of temptations and innumerable lusts do have access to our flesh internally, in lusts and temptations. This is also why the flesh is contrary to the Spirit, because THEY are contrary to the Spirit.

They are what we are "saved" and divided from because we are (at least supposed to) see that temptations are in fact demonic, and we RESIST those things of the DEVIL, internally. We are released from "THEIR" flesh hold by Spiritual Sight. The flesh is actually where their "kingdom" resides. And their power comes from the law, whereby they "enter" man's heart to deceive and to blind.

As it pertains to LAW, the LAW was given precisely to reveal sin, which is of the devil. The devil is also moved into action "in man" where the Word is sown and the LAW is also The Word. That is why no one is technically legal and in fact can't be. Because it's not a question of just a singular person involved with Law. The tempter is also moved in man, by the law, to resist. The math here is not hard to fathom. Sin is of the devil. The devil resists the law in man. The law therefore gives RESISTING strength to the DEVIL "in man."

In salvation, we, by SIGHT of this internal problem, are called to RESIST our enemies who "tempt" us internally. We are not called to be 'their slave.' But it is blindness to claim that "they" are or can be "legal" in any of us. And that is where legalists go completely off the scriptural rails. The contrariness of the flesh remains with all of us to deal with and to reign over. Gal. 5:17, Romans 6:12, Eph. 6:11-13

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

In lying hypocrisy, our minds become "seared shut" to this internal reality. 1 Tim. 4:2

 

[JLB]

Yes, all suffer and are put under sin in the flesh. Sin is of the devil. There is no way to avoid the same conclusion Paul has regarding the contrary relationship between the flesh and the Spirit, and this contrary condition exists because of lusts and temptations of/in the flesh via the tempter in the flesh, JUST LIKE PAUL. Paul was no different in this regards than any of us.

I might even observe that 'resisting' this exposure is a sign, sent from God. An open revealing, if you please.

Why was Paul given a messenger of Satan to buffet him?

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 2 Corinthians 12:7

This condition was unique to the Apostle Paul.

You have tried to build a whole entire theology off a scripture and a condition that was unique to Paul.

Everyone does not have a messenger of Satan dwelling in their flesh.

Everyone has sin dwelling in there flesh.

But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. Romans 7:17



JLB

 

[smaller]

Everyone has sin dwelling in there flesh.

But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. Romans 7:17
JLB

Indeed we "all" do. And sin is and remains "of the devil." The scriptural math is unavoidable. Which also decimates most forms of "works salvation" claims.

A "messenger of Satan" in the flesh is "perceived" by any internal temptation or lust that comes in "resistance" to the LAW, just as Paul noted happened "within" himself in Romans 7:7-13. When the commandment came against lust, then followed lust in his own mind, in every manner of concupiscence. On this basis Paul shows us that "evil" was for a fact, present with him. Romans 7:21.

I think any honest believer can arrive at an identical conclusion. And from there, also identify that the FLESH, because it is subject to lusts and temptations, is contrary to the Spirit. It can not be "obedient" or "lawful." It is always 'contrary' just as Paul notes in Gal. 5:17.

 

[AndyBern]

Trying to keep the Law implies work on our part... effort to gain or maintain a right standing before God. But nobody can keep the law by human effort, neither before salvation or after. Such effort is fleshly, and our flesh is hopelessly fallen (Romans 8:7-8). (The flesh is not just our desire to sin, but our efforts in gaining favor before God. Law-keeping and the flesh are closely tied together in such passages as Mark 10:17-23, Luke 18:11-12, Romans 7, and Galatians.)

The epistle to the Galatians must be understood as written, not to non-believers, but to believers - and hence to us. Paul was not telling them how to be saved, but how they were to live after they were saved. The Galatians had already received the true gospel (Galatians 1:9, 4:9) and the Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:2). But they were seeking to obey the Law rather than submit to the Spirit. This is why he asked if they were so foolish. The put themselves under a curse by seeking to obey the Law (Galatians 3:10).

The only way a Christian can fulfill the requirements of the Law is not by law-keeping, but by walking in the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:2-4). This is not anti-nomianism, but pneuma-nomianism - the law of the Spirit of life where He works through us to do His good works, not our 'good' works. Like justification, sanctification is the work of God.

The Law is not done away with. It still serves to point out sin and point people to Christ. The Law remains God's standard, but it is eliminated as the means of living (Romans 7:1-6). Its requirements are only met by those who walk in the Spirit (Romans 8:4), not by those who seek to keep the Law.

Look at Paul who used to follow the Law “blamelessly” before he was saved (Philippians 3:6). After he was saved he didn’t use his salvation as an opportunity to keep the Law more perfectly. Instead, he counted law-keeping a total “loss”. This is what he meant when he called the Galatians (and us) to “be as I am; for I am as you are.”

Also, according to Romans 7:1-4, it would be spiritual adultery to go back to the Law now that we are Christ's.

 

[smaller]

That was quite good Andy! Thank you.

I might even observe that putting the "flesh" under the LAW is in a form of spiritual suicide, because "resistance" to the law remains a reality of the flesh. When we "think" our flesh is somehow obedient, we have in fact been internally deceived by our adversary. We then fall into hypocrisy and even lying, claiming our flesh is obedient when that is never the case.

We are to identify "death" to our flesh, even daily, as Paul did for his own flesh. Because it is contrary to the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:31
I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

This conclusion doesn't change, ever. Until the body is actually dead, at the termination of it.

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

 

[JLB]

Indeed we "all" do. And sin is and remains "of the devil."

Unfortunately you have no scripture to support this statement.

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

Those who sin are of the devil.

The scripture doesn't say "sin" is of the devil, rather it says "those who sin are of the devil.

There is a distinction between those who sin, and those who practice righteousness, even though both wear the same sinful body of flesh.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Trying to keep the Law implies work on our part... effort to gain or maintain a right standing before God. But nobody can keep the law by human effort, neither before salvation or after. Such effort is fleshly, and our flesh is hopelessly fallen (Romans 8:7-8). (The flesh is not just our desire to sin, but our efforts in gaining favor before God. Law-keeping and the flesh are closely tied together in such passages as Mark 10:17-23, Luke 18:11-12, Romans 7, and Galatians.)

So now that we have been set free from the law of sin and death, you think you have no power to resist murdering of lying, or stealing or adultery?

The way a Christian who has been filled with the Holy Spirit literally keeps the law that says do not lie, is to literally tell the truth.

Christians who practice lying, will be cast into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8



JLB

 

[smaller]

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8
The scripture doesn't say "sin" is of the devil, rather it says "those who sin are of the devil.

Pretty sure the quotes in bold/black are accurate. Taken from the KJV that's exactly what it says:

-"sin is of the devil"- Not sin ARE as your alt. proposes.

Even the most "liberal" rendering, the NIV says essentially the same:

-"what is sinful is of the devil-"

And WHO has sinned from the begging? Uh, yeah. The devil.

Since all have sin, again, the math just ain't all that hard. I'd reckon that just about every believer has figured out that sin is demonic by nature.

 

[AndyBern]

So now that we have been set free from the law of sin and death, you think you have no power to resist murdering of lying, or stealing or adultery?

If I judge myself according to the letter of the Law, like the self-righteous Pharisee, I deceive myself into thinking I have the power to resist those sins. But if I judge myself according to the real meaning of the Law, such as Jesus described in Matthew 5:17-48, I discover I really have no power to keep the Law. I find myself too often breaking the Law in my thoughts. And my breaking any one command, not just in letter but in spirit, makes me guilty of breaking the whole Law (James 2:10).

The Pharisee and the rich man were able to keep the letter of the Law ...no not perfectly, but surprisingly Jesus didn't make an issue of it. To the rich man, He said he still lacked something else. Even as a Pharisee, Paul was able to keep the the Law "blamelessly", and yet this was not enough. As Jesus said, your righteousness has to exceed the letter-of-the-Law righteousness of the Pharisees (Matthew 5:20).

The Holy Spirit was given to enable us to overcome sin, because we don't have the strength in ourselves. I know from experience that I sin much more when I try to keep the Law and avoid sin, rather than walk in the Spirit. As such, I'd rather let Him do His work in me so that I am His workmanship and He gets the glory, rather than me saying "God, I got this" and trying to get the glory.