The Law of God. OT. Applicable Today?

[TOG]

It's not the sacrifice of bulls or goats anymore, or ever, God desired, as He says in Psalms and other places ...
Psalm 50:1-17
Amplified Bible (AMP)

Psalm 50
A Psalm of Asaph.
1 The Mighty One, God, the Lord, speaks and calls the earth from the rising of the sun to its setting.

2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God shines forth.

3 Our God comes and does not keep silence; a fire devours before Him, and round about Him a mighty tempest rages.

4 He calls to the heavens above and to the earth, that He may judge His people:

5 Gather together to Me My saints [those who have found grace in My sight], those who have made a covenant with Me by sacrifice.

6 And the heavens declare His righteousness (rightness and justice), for God, He is judge. Selah [pause, and calmly think of that]!

7 Hear, O My people, and I will speak; O Israel, I will testify to you and against you: I am God, your God.

8 I do not reprove you for your sacrifices; your burnt offerings are continually before Me.

9 I will accept no bull from your house nor he-goat out of your folds.

10 For every beast of the forest is Mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills or upon the mountains where thousands are.

11 I know and am acquainted with all the birds of the mountains, and the wild animals of the field are Mine and are with Me, in My mind.

12 If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world and its fullness are Mine.

13 Shall I eat the flesh of bulls or drink the blood of goats?

14 Offer to God the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and pay your vows to the Most High,

15 And call on Me in the day of trouble; I will deliver you, and you shall honor and glorify Me.

16 But to the wicked, God says: What right have you to recite My statutes or take My covenant or pledge on your lips,
17 Seeing that you hate instruction and correction and cast My words behind you [discarding them]?
23 He who brings an offering of praise and thanksgiving honors and glorifies Me; and he who orders his way aright [who prepares the way that I may show him], to him I will demonstrate the salvation of God.

Many people today seem to think that the "sacrifice of thanksgiving" was just being thankful. It was much more than that. It was an actual sacrifice.

And this is the law of the sacrifice of peace offerings that one may offer to the Lord. If he offers it for a thanksgiving, then he shall offer with the thanksgiving sacrifice unleavened loaves mixed with oil, unleavened wafers smeared with oil, and loaves of fine flour well mixed with oil. With the sacrifice of his peace offerings for thanksgiving he shall bring his offering with loaves of leavened bread. And from it he shall offer one loaf from each offering, as a gift to the Lord. It shall belong to the priest who throws the blood of the peace offerings. And the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings for thanksgiving shall be eaten on the day of his offering. He shall not leave any of it until the morning. But if the sacrifice of his offering is a vow offering or a freewill offering, it shall be eaten on the day that he offers his sacrifice, and on the next day what remains of it shall be eaten. But what remains of the flesh of the sacrifice on the third day shall be burned up with fire. (Lev. 7:11-17 ESV)​

The TOG

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

oh oh ..... a lot of people are going to be surprised / shocked / devastated on judgment day then.(if that is so)

 

[TOG]

I don't see any of the earthly regulations today as any reason/obligation/UNobligation for Jews nor for gentiles to uphold or not uphold anything other than what God's Word says to do or not to do, as pertains to what God Almighty says.

And it is written in Scripture that even ignorant gentiles who have not torah can and do OR may and can do still uphold torah as shown when they do what is right as God says it.(Romans?)

(maybe Galatians)

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law (Rom. 2:14 ESV)
​

The TOG

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law (Rom. 2:14 ESV)
​

The TOG

Yes! Thank you.

 

[JLB]

I don't see any of the earthly regulations today as any reason/obligation/UNobligation for Jews nor for gentiles to uphold or not uphold anything other than what God's Word says to do or not to do, as pertains to what God Almighty says.

And it is written in Scripture that even ignorant gentiles who have not torah can and do OR may and can do still uphold torah as shown when they do what is right as God says it.(Romans?)

(maybe Galatians)

Yes sir. Good word.

Romans.

 

[Deborah13]

All I can do is point to the Scripture where he does that. You'll have to ask him why when you get the chance. The way I understand it is that Passover always pointed to Christ and now that he has come, we can understand it's meaning better and celebrate it in a deeper way than people ever could in Old Testament times.

Exactly. He's saying it has a lot more meaning than just leaving Egypt. That doesn't mean we should abandon that festival. On the contrary, it gives us even more reason to celebrate it.

The TOG​

Did I say anything about abandoning the festival? I did not.
Only that our festival of the Passover is the complete picture, why would we want to celebrate a partial picture as the Jews do. They celebrate and praise God for their earthly deliverance from slavery in Egpyt. The true Passover is our deliverance from condemnation and bondage to sin.

TOG I love learning things about the OT and Jewish things. They give me a more complete picture of what the NT is talking about, a deeper understanding. After all it, the OT with all the law, festivals, the prophets, are all about the Messiah. He is the theme of the whole book.
And I certainly do not judge anyone for observing the festivals.

 

[TOG]

Did I say anything about abandoning the festival? I did not.
Only that our festival of the Passover is the complete picture, why would we want to celebrate a partial picture as the Jews do. They celebrate and praise God for their earthly deliverance from slavery in Egpyt. The true Passover is our deliverance from condemnation and bondage to sin.

TOG I love learning things about the OT and Jewish things. They give me a more complete picture of what the NT is talking about, a deeper understanding. After all it, the OT with all the law, festivals, the prophets, are all about the Messiah. He is the theme of the whole book.
And I certainly do not judge anyone for observing the festivals.

I didn't mean to misrepresent anything you said. I apologize if it came across that way. Many people do say that we should not celebrate the OT festivals. Maybe I was just too quick to assume that you meant that since that's what I'm used to hearing all the time. I should have known better from other posts of yours I have read.

With regard to partial vs. complete pictures, I think that is what Paul was saying, or at least the way I understand him. Jesus completes the picture given through the Passover and everything associated with it, including the sacrificial lamb, the unleavened bread and all the rest.

The TOG​

 

[Deborah13]

There are some really unbelievable doctrines floating around.

If you really want to learn about where many of these doctrines that Messianic Judaism teaches, then you can go to a site called: The Jerusalem Council or Psalms 119 ministries.

One doesn't even need to go there. Just listen to Tom Ice and Tim LaHaye. They believe we will all be doing animal sacrifices again. 2 Oh yeah.

 

[Gary]

It's one of those things that are in the Bible, but people don't like to admit because it doesn't fit with their theology.

The TOG​

You actually perform animal sacrifices?
.

 

[Deborah13]

I didn't mean to misrepresent anything you said. I apologize if it came across that way. Many people do say that we should not celebrate the OT festivals. Maybe I was just too quick to assume that you meant that since that's what I'm used to hearing all the time. I should have known better from other posts of yours I have read.

With regard to partial vs. complete pictures, I think that is what Paul was saying, or at least the way I understand him. Jesus completes the picture given through the Passover and everything associated with it, including the sacrificial lamb, the unleavened bread and all the rest.

The TOG​

No apology is needed TOG. Most of the time we do see eye to eye and this is a difficult discussion to have. It is easy to misunderstand what someone is saying. I do that for sure. :blush

 

[Deborah13]

Sure thing brother!

When I say we are not under Law, we are referring to the Torah.. the Law of Moses. Christ's Law is the summation of those laws which is to do all things in Love.

Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13:8-10 (ESV)

Here is what I posted earlier. By loving, we fulfill the purpose of the Mosaic Laws, so now Law keeping (in the OT sense) such as Circumcision or dietary laws count for nothing, but rather faith working through love is what matters now.

Also, in that Scripture you posted there, the key section is where it says, "and such were some of you." God cleanses us, not by some kind of outward washing of water, but by the washing regeneration of the Spirit that renews our heart so that we can bear fruit for God. When we were given the Law, we couldn't do it because we were weakened by our sinful flesh. However, now that we have been joined to Christ, we can fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law by walking according to the Spirit who works by faith.

For those of us who belong to God, we have the Holy Spirit working in us to conform us into the image of God's Son. He has given us grace to not only be saved, but be transformed to be able to actually practice righteousness in all humility, so that the glory goes to the Father who works in us both to will and work for his good pleasure.

This is a LOT of Scriptural doctrine packed into a short post. Please let me know if you have any questions regarding what I have said.

Blessings,
DI

Maybe you can discuss the point that the Law of Moses was not just a set of laws to live by. It was a covenant/legal contract. The old covenant.

 

[Deborah13]

Try to remember that Noah and his sons had some heavy competition with the sons of God situation and all.

JLB

 

[TOG]

You actually perform animal sacrifices?
.

Where did I say that? I said that the first Christians kept offering sacrifices while the temple still stood in Jerusalem. Since 70 AD there has been no place where sacrifices may be offered.

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

Maybe you can discuss the point that the Law of Moses was not just a set of laws to live by. It was a covenant/legal contract. The old covenant.

It's getting late here (or early, depending on how you look at it; it's 1 AM). I'll try and discuss that tomorrow. I'm too tired to do it now.

The TOG​

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

It's getting late here (or early, depending on how you look at it; it's 1 AM). I'll try and discuss that tomorrow. I'm too tired to do it now.

The TOG​

OY! the whole future of the vast universe rests on the next few minutes, and who can sleep !? (goo'nite)

 

[Gary]

Where did I say that? I said that the first Christians kept offering sacrifices while the temple still stood in Jerusalem. Since 70 AD there has been no place where sacrifices may be offered.

Right here.

Really? Paul actually states that we need to make an animal sacrifice?.

He told the Gentiles in Corinth to keep Passover and Unleavened Bread, and that involves making a sacrifice, so the answer is yes.

It's one of those things that are in the Bible, but people don't like to admit because it doesn't fit with their theology.

 

[JLB]

Where did I say that? I said that the first Christians kept offering sacrifices while the temple still stood in Jerusalem. Since 70 AD there has been no place where sacrifices may be offered.

The TOG​

Christians?

Please share the scripture that shows this.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

It's getting late here (or early, depending on how you look at it; it's 1 AM). I'll try and discuss that tomorrow. I'm too tired to do it now.

The TOG​

:nod

 

[TOG]

Right here.

Sorry, I misread your post. What I meant was that Paul told the Gentiles in the first century to continue to offer at least some sacrifices, including the Passover sacrifice. The Passover lamb was not an atontement for sin. It was a peace offering. Peace offerings were not required, but were completely voluntary. My understanding is that such voluntary offerings would be allowed for Gentile Christians, if they had access to the temple and there were priests to make the offerings. They would however not be required. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

The TOG​

 

[JLB]

TOG said -

What I meant was that Paul told the Gentiles in the first century to continue to offer at least some sacrifices, including the Passover sacrifice.

1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), 2 and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia: 3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen. 6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:1-9

In your opinion, what is it that Paul means by "any other Gospel", and "pervert the gospel".


As Paul goes on to say -

11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers. Galatians 1:11-14


Why do you believe Paul persecuted the Church, while he was in Judaism.

What do you believe the major difference between Judaism and the Church is?


15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother. Galatians 1:15-19

Do you believe the Gospel preached to the Gentiles was different that the Gospel that was preached by Peter among the Jews?

Please help me to understand what you believe about these things.


JLB