Bible Study The Law of God - The Law of Moses - The Law

[Elijah674]

This was posted for me some time ago Nate. In all of my long days on planet earth, 'i' have heard about all of it! One cannot nor cares to try to read anothers heart, but the [posts] and this post is not even the least bit creditable, yet about the worse is a claim to LOVE CHRIST, yet, we see these ones coming out of the satanic closets with hate forChrist's 7th Day Blessed Set Aside for Holy USE Day of Worship! One post even call the whole law BONDAGE!
---Elijah
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IF YOU CONTINUE READING PAST THE FIRST 5 VERSES OF ACTS 15, YOU WILL FIND THAT THERE WAS A GREAT MEETING IN JERUSALEM BECAUSE OF THE SABBATH AND GENERAL CIRCUMCISION {LAW} BECAUSE OF THE GENTILES, AND IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE HOLY SPIRIT TO PLACE NO GREATER BURDEN THAT 4 LAWS, 3 OF WHICH GOVERNED FOOD AND 1 CONCERNING FORNICATION

IF YOU CAN'T TRUST CHRIST, THE HOLY SPIRIT, OR THE APOSTLES, I AM AT A LOSS FOR WORDS

IT IS CALLED FAITH PASTOR, FAITH IN THE GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR CHRIST JESUS THE LORD, OR, YOU CAN DO SOMETHING ELSE, ITS YOUR SHIP, ONLY YOU CAN SAIL IT

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Act 15:29 That ye {1} abstain from meats offered to idols, and {2}from blood, and {3}from things strangled, and {4}from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well, Fare ye well.

FOUR. Denotes creative works (3 + 1), and always has reference to the material creation, as pertaining to the earth, and things "under the sun", and things terrestrial.

Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck
1Ti 1:19

***********************

P/N/B/ here:

You still do not get it! (i hope that, that is all the problem is) Read the whole chapter in context! Verse 1 & verse 5 tells you what the meeting was all about!!! It was Not about the ETERNAL COVENANT OF GOD!!!

It states in Inspiration the Words of Moses LAW. Not the Godheads Royal Law! Now, what have you talked about above??? Burdens?? That is what God's Covenant is to you, a BURDEN???? (again, you need to have a Born Again MIND!)

And Necessary things?? READ ECCL. 12:13-14! This the WHOLE DUTY OF MAN! Not any Jew either. Man as in Mankind! Which Keep the Commandments of GOD, that is the CONCLUSION OF THE *WHOLE MATTER! FOR GOD WILL BRING EVERY WORK INTO JUDGEMENT!! Again, for mankind!

Then, meats, blood, and strangled... Where on earth do you see anything like this in the 10 Commandments that God Himself wrote!???????Then you conclude with faith & shipwreck! I suggest that you read Heb. 6:1-6 for this, and 2 Peter 2:19-22 & tell us how this was possible with your theology?

OK: Back into Acts 15. Check the center index verses! In Gal. 2:11-14 the issue was with Peter before them all.. over CIRCUMCISION. NOT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS or the SABBATH one that seems to be hated the most. by some here. Then come verses 16-18 with more of the works of the ceremonial law. Take note! There is no WORK in OBEDIENCE OF THE ETERNAL COVENANT!! Christ say that "IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS". That is not BONDAGE WHEN ONES LOVES CHRIST! It is only BONDAGE TO THEM THAT HAVE NOT BEEN BORN AGAIN!! Gal. 3:10 CALL'S IT THE "BOOK OF THE LAW". Again Moses law was written in a book by him & placed in the side of the Ark, not INSIDE where the eternal Covenant of the Godhead was kept. Deut. 31:9 & verses 24-26.

Then we see the Word of bondage, begardly elements and , where unto how ye turn again to the weak and beggarly elements.. Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you'. Gal. 4:9-10 in part. (you can tell God how you can get His eternal Covenant of Heb. 13:20 wound up in that???) Then in Gal. 4:1-4 again we see NOTHING ABOUT THE ETERNAL COVENANT OF THE **GODHEAD!! [CIRCUMCISM]!! Circumcism is again the issue that Paul went up to Jerusalem for in the first place and about the law of Moses is what Inspiration documented!!

Now over in Ephesians 2:13-15 we see the law Moses pointed to CHRIST. (Even Gal. 3:19 told why it was added) Notice verse 15 of Eph. 2, it says "Having abolished the law of commandments contained in ORDINANCES ..." Again, not the Ten Commandments that God Himself wrote!

Did I miss going back to Acts 15? Well, you look at Acts 21:17-25, and you say that this is about the Covenant of God?? Paul is telling of the meeting that went on there with the brethren at Jerusalem. ".. how many thousands of the Jews there are which believe; [and they are all zealous of the law:] WHICH ONE FRIEND!!?? Acts 15:1 & Acts 15:5 had NOTHING to do with the covenant of God. It says circumcism & the *LAW OF MOSES. This is was the problem of the 'thousands of Jews that were there, that were zealous of the law' They knew of Paul having been preaching about what? Notice:

Verse 21 of Acts 21. And see if you can 'ditch' the Eternal Covenant of God by this verse? "And they are informed of thee, that thou teaches [all Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses], saying that they [ought not to CIRCUMCISE THEIR CHILDREN], NEITHER [TO WALK AFTER THE *CUSTOMS]."

This was Acts 15 TIME FRIEND. Again, you tell Paul that he does away with the Covenant of God! These Jewish converts at Jerusalem had heard about Paul and his (their) problem with Moses law & circumcism, and (for more proof!) Paul even at this time GOOFED BIG TIME! Verse 22-24. And verse 25? Is about God's 10 Commandment law?? Hog/wash! (just the Sabbath Day is really what the devil is really after, huh! Dan. 7:25!)

Verse 25 of Acts 21 is all about Acts 15's Circumcism & the Law of Moses!!.

"As touching the Gentile's which believe, we have written and concluded that [they observe [NO SUCH THING,] (no such thing as what? the ONLY THING UNDER CONSIDERATION WAS THE LAW OF MOSES!!) save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication."

If you can find any 'hint' from this that the ten Commandment Everlasting Covenant is or was even attempted to be suggested at here, you are far the worse that that of just not being Born Again! See again Heb. 6:6.

 

[Who Says]

Oh Elijah,

Can you not see the difference between discerning another's thoughts and reading their heart? And if one per chance does obtain a small glimpse of what is in another's heart does that mean they have to judge them for it? Judging other's hearts would be the bad thing would it not?

Why do you look so to find fault?

What is in your heart, Elijah?

Matthew 12:35 "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things."

 

[Nathan]

You have convinced me that there is no point in my discussing the matter further with you. In my estimation that is the worst reasoning I have seen you do yet. By this point in time that convinces me you are set inflexibly in how you desire to see it. And I am not trying to force you to see anything you do not wish to see.

Ezekiel remains true because as I said, that Law written against sin to expose (or to keep track of) sin was only set aside (not destroyed) and in earlier posts I clearly showed that the man that willfully sins places himself back under it because it is only set aside.

But in your anxiousness to defend how you wish to see it you have gone to the point of intimating that I have somehow given permission to sin. That is a very crude, untrue, and offensive approach.

Perverting Colossians 2:13-14 to say that the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands is sin rather than the Law which kept track of sin is something no one can refute as it is not an approach requesting any other view to weigh it. It serves one purpose and one only.

I am not even going to comment on the rest but to say you are full of surprises.

I do wish to see. That is exactly why I ask the questions I do. If it was just me wanting to state my opinion, why wouldn't I just do so? ;) I cannot help it if you view my reasoning of Colossians as 'the worst'. Thats new to even me, I have never had those words said.

My anxiousness is only to defend the faith inside me. If, in the process, I can come to the realization that I am NOT being led of the Spirit, then I will by all means say so. You do not know me as well as you think you do. Ask my friend Elijah how long ago it was that I sat in the seat your sitting in saying the same things you say. Not long. Whats changed? I could not prove from Scriptures otherwise than what he was saying. I tried. But the law stands as eternal, in Christ. And we, in Christ, are surrounded by that law in order to allow us to see that He IS the One True God, and there is none other.

Where have I "intimated" that you said we have permission to sin? I do not understand why people do this to me. Why do people say I am doing something that I have never done? Have I not said everything up front? Have I ever held anything back? Do I not ask questions to discern the true intentions of ones thoughts?

The record of debt that DID stand against us is that 'record' of our sins. The legal demands of that 'record' was death. Jesus took that 'record' and placed it upon Himself. If you will notice the word "He" in the latter part of verse 14 is speaking of God the Father. God the Father took the record and "nailed" It(Jesus) to the cross.

Jhn 10:17-18 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father."

Phl 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

1Pe 2:24-25 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

It was our record of sins. Not the law. The law was there, all the way to the end, to make sure the debt was paid for. Then He cried;

Jhn 19:30 ..."It is finished," and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.​

 

[Nathan]

Satan is the only one you will find trying to destroy the word of God since day one.

That almost makes me wonder what is in your coffee tonight that you level such subtle intimations against me.

So be it.

I did no such thing. Why accuse me of it? Satan IS the ONLY one you will find trying to destroy the word of God since day one. Not humans.

 

[Nathan]

I ask questions in hopes of getting answers to better look at a topic.

So, I still leave the question of where is it prophesied that Jesus would do away with the entirety of the law? Where does it state that God's ten commandments would be put aside?

Jesus fulfilled over 400 prophesies. Surely, if the taking away of the law is such an intrinsic part of our faith, there will be some prophesies that pointed to it? Right? Especially since it would be a "new" thing, and not something that has already been decreed. This is a genuine request for Scriptures that prophesy.

 

[Nathan]

Here is another question I am having a hard time with.

Where in the NT does it state the purpose of the law?

 

[Elijah674]

Subject: --Sabbath Rest--
(By Elijah here)

Resting [IN CHRIST] in DISOBEDIENCE! God says get beind me satan!!
In heaven even we see that we will have the same Special Sabbath Day for Worship! Isa. 66

[22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
[23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

And the other six working days? The Godhead leaves NO DOUBT there as well!
In Isa. 65 we see:
[21] And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
[22] They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

[23] They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
[24] And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
[25] The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

It does not take any special knowledge to understand God's Inspiration in these two chapters! His City will be for the 7th Day Sabbath Worship Service of Him! And the other six days are for us living WORKING saints!

What one 'thinks' today?? Will not change this Truth! And Christ reads that work, huh? (not me, nor do I care to pretend to!)

But this scriptural material is another subject that we as individuals had best get right!

And about the Heb. 4 'Rest'? Surely we can know enough to forget mans chapter number 4, & must include ALL OF THE REST OF THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL! Rev. 14:6 is even in what some call the New Covenant side of the cross. But chapter 3 of Heb. with Heb. 4 will do for now.

Verse 14 states: "For we are made partakers of Christ, [IF WE HOLD THE BEGINNING OF OUR CONFIDENCE STEADFAST UNTO THE END;] Of course all are not made partakers of the Holy Ghost! Only those that are seen in Acts 5:32. These are seen in Total submission to the complete Book of His 'Inspiration'! From Gen. on to the Rev. Ending! And we see IF! IF! IF! (got that??) and 'STEADFAST UNTO THE END'!!

And REMEMBER the Word in the start of the Forth 7th Day Sabbath Command! And the REQUIRED [[[REST!]]] + even the livestock.


And verse 6?
"But Christ as a Son over His own house; whose house are we, IF WE HOLD FAST THE CONFIDENCE AND REJOICING OF HOPE FIRM UNTO THE END."

And verse 10? "Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; ..."
(But how did they err in their HEART?)

See 2 Cor. 3:3's EPISTLE or letter of Christ was not (IS NOT) in there heart. And how do we know this?? Because they were TESTED by a test, for forty years on only one test to see if they were obedient to all of the ETERNAL EVERLASTING COVENANT!

Forum: You go read it. Exodus 16.
You can be correct in ones Love definition of REST 'IN' CHRIST only if it brings fruite of Required Obedience from Eternity on, or else one finds NO REST OR PEACE IN CHRIST!! For forty years Christ TESTED these ones as well as we, to see [IF] we HAVE THE LOVE THAT HE REQUIRES of us to be safe to save! (Nah. 1:9) Or if we are as they, just give lip service? Their actions spoke for their Love relationship. See James 2:8-12 and (try Rev. 3:16-17's SPEWED OUT SICKENING TO CHRIST] ONES!

)

But notice forum, that in verse 4 of Exodus 16 we see God telling us that He would "PROVE THEM, WHETHER THEY WILL WALK IN MY LAW OR NO."
He says MY LAW! (EVERLASTING COVENANT Heb. 13:20)
It is then that for the FORTY YEARS THEY WERE TESTED ON JUST THE ONE SABBATH COMMANDMENT to see [IF] they were IN CHRIST'S [REST]!

Notice verse 26-30. They (and who?) were TESTED on only this ONE COMMANDMENT to see if they were {IN} Christ! See Rom. 8:1. And by breaking this [one commandment] God says: "And it came to pass, that THERE WENT SOME of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.

And the [LORD SAID UNTO MOSES, HOW LONG **REFUSE YE TO KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS AND MY LAWS?]" And surely, the ONLY MOTIVE for the [correct] answer to this question, Christ told was [IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS]".
BEING [IN] CHRIST IS THE ONLY WAY TO HAVE TOTAL REST! And OBEDIENCE!! See Acts 5:32

By the way: I was asked this question by one on a board. Does not keeping the Seventh Day Sabbath mean that one does not love the Lord? Now, if the question was ask [me personally], I would be honest and answer yes. Or I would be a liar on both counts!
That means.. as not to be confused, that this is MY PERSONAL CONVICTION for ME!! There are other verses such as in John 10:16 or Rev. 18:4. Before Christ comes again, this same test will again seperate the true from the false! Eccl. 3:15 ='s 666! But most have already bound their selves in Rev. 17:1-5 church bundeles for the fire.

Yet, the Lord must tire of this rebelliousness stuff in time, for look at what became of these Exodus 16 Eternal Covenant ones! And Cain! And Israel of old! And Laodicea? And the ones who 'believed' that they were as their claim, claimed! Rev. 3:9!! Sure Lord I love you.. kind of!! (Gen. 4:7!)


Yet, it is interesting that verse 35 tells of this being the T-E-S-T just before entering their Land of Canaan. We too are looking to enter our heavenly land of Canaan!

And we too will have a 666 TESTING to see ... [IF] YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS? And the testing will be on just this one Sabbath Commandment to see if we are safe to save throughout all of eternity! Naham . 1:9
How so you ask? Well, Lets see if you really BELIEVE the Master's Words in Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15?
_________________
-A Voice Crying In The Wilderness Prepare ye The Way Of The Lord-


​

 

[Who Says]

I did no such thing. Why accuse me of it? Satan IS the ONLY one you will find trying to destroy the word of God since day one. Not humans.

How else can I find a basis for the thought that anyone is trying to do that thing?

Am I to believe that you pulled the idea out of nothing concerning one trying to destroy that law? Am I to believe you merely threw a random and totally unrelated statement out there to our discussion?

I can only imagine that the idea to say anything at all about someone trying to destroy that law must be born of a comparison in your mind that you saw relevent to our discussion.

For if you did not think you saw someone trying to destroy that law you would have had no reason to even think about Satan trying to destroy it in relation to our discussion of that law.

This is actually only elementary logic. Not difficult to see at all.

Please understand that I am not saying you are wrong to have such questions in your mind concerning what I am doing.

I am saying please be open with me about those feelings instead of presenting them in a concealed way.

Trust that I am mature enough for you to say to me, "Brother, I fear how you see this to be as trying to destroy the law. I need help to see whether it is or is not."

It is OK even to say to me. "Brother, I fear you have fallen into the hands of Satan through your logic."

Can you see the difference in the love and respect that is shown by this direct approach?

 

[Who Says]

I ask questions in hopes of getting answers to better look at a topic.

So, I still leave the question of where is it prophesied that Jesus would do away with the entirety of the law? Where does it state that God's ten commandments would be put aside?

Jesus fulfilled over 400 prophesies. Surely, if the taking away of the law is such an intrinsic part of our faith, there will be some prophesies that pointed to it? Right? Especially since it would be a "new" thing, and not something that has already been decreed. This is a genuine request for Scriptures that prophesy.

In your post #243 you did say something that has paused me for a moment to more carefully assess.

I am not done assessing it yet. I was forced to need to pay attention to other things for a while. And I do not want to assess it hastily.

So bear with me for a little while.

 

[Nathan]

Ive got another question..... Seems they just keep coming today.

Jesus, when sitting and describing the events leading up to His return, spoke about people trying to lead the disciples "astray". After that there are some things that He describes physically happening in the earth. And then He speaks of the condition of mankind.

Mat 24:9-13 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

So they will be hated for His 'names sake'. Then many will fall away. Not only that, but they will betray one another and hate. But then He speaks of this "lawlessness". What is that? What is "lawlessness" when it is spoken of by the NT authors. We know what the OT authors talked about when they spoke of "iniquity, and wickedness" (which is what 'lawlessness" is translated).

But I find it interesting, because as a result of this lawlessness, love will then grow cold. We often think that because love grows cold, then lawlessness sets in. Because people stop loving, then they start being "bad". But Jesus is very pointed that it is because of the lawlessness that the love of many will grow cold.

What is lawlessness?

 

[Who Says]

Ive got another question..... Seems they just keep coming today.

Jesus, when sitting and describing the events leading up to His return, spoke about people trying to lead the disciples "astray". After that there are some things that He describes physically happening in the earth. And then He speaks of the condition of mankind.

Mat 24:9-13 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

So they will be hated for His 'names sake'. Then many will fall away. Not only that, but they will betray one another and hate. But then He speaks of this "lawlessness". What is that? What is "lawlessness" when it is spoken of by the NT authors. We know what the OT authors talked about when they spoke of "iniquity, and wickedness" (which is what 'lawlessness" is translated).

But I find it interesting, because as a result of this lawlessness, love will then grow cold. We often think that because love grows cold, then lawlessness sets in. Because people stop loving, then they start being "bad". But Jesus is very pointed that it is because of the lawlessness that the love of many will grow cold.

What is lawlessness?

]
lawlessness is exactly that. being without law.

This is a cyclic thing. Jesus shows us clearly that genuine obedience is more than merely complying to law; that if we love him we will not fail to listen to him and so be lawless. Therefore genuine obedience to law is motivated by love and that love keeps it unbroken.

The cycle of lawlessness is that lawlessness both begins with a lack of love and due to its affects tears down love further that lawlessness grows in dimension as a result. It becomes a self perpetuating cycle.

 

[Who Says]

Here is another question I am having a hard time with.

Where in the NT does it state the purpose of the law?

That is an excellent question:

1 Timothy 1:5 ¶Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

Micah 6:8 "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

2 Corinthians 6:6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,

2 Timothy 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

The following scriptures link this together:

Galatians 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

Romans 1:17 "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

Romans 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."


Now notice it does not say that the just shall live by law, even though he also told us: Galatians 3:12 "And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them."

Is Paul there At Gal 3:12 saying to us that is how we are to do it?

 

[Nathan]

How else can I find a basis for the thought that anyone is trying to do that thing?

Am I to believe that you pulled the idea out of nothing concerning one trying to destroy that law? Am I to believe you merely threw a random and totally unrelated statement out there to our discussion?

I can only imagine that the idea to say anything at all about someone trying to destroy that law must be born of a comparison in your mind that you saw relevent to our discussion.

For if you did not think you saw someone trying to destroy that law you would have had no reason to even think about Satan trying to destroy it in relation to our discussion of that law.

This is actually only elementary logic. Not difficult to see at all.

Please understand that I am not saying you are wrong to have such questions in your mind concerning what I am doing.

I am saying please be open with me about those feelings instead of presenting them in a concealed way.

Trust that I am mature enough for you to say to me, "Brother, I fear how you see this to be as trying to destroy the law. I need help to see whether it is or is not."

It is OK even to say to me. "Brother, I fear you have fallen into the hands of Satan through your logic."

Can you see the difference in the love and respect that is shown by this direct approach?

Brother, here's the problem. When we post, who knows what happens. At this current time I have no idea of what your posting. You could have posted two or three posts by now. If I am speaking directly to you, I will usually include some sort of quote from you.

I understand your mature enough. Please be mature enough to believe me when I say that the comment did not have anything to do with you. Not one bit. I was sad when I saw this morning that you took it that way. And when I contemplated it on the way to work, I really thought that I had posted that Satan was the ONLY one. And indeed when I got back on line, I saw that it was correct.

Where it comes from is that Satan HAS been trying to destroy the word of God SINCE day one. He is the ONLY one who has been. Adam and Eve did not try to destroy it. They just disobeyed it, and were deceived by the one destroying it. It fits precisely in with our topic.

Now as far as love goes, do you not see that I purposefully went in and edited my quoted post of you with your added comments, after I had posted and saw that you had edited them yourself? Brother, it was not directed at you. Never was, never shall be.

 

[Nathan]

]
lawlessness is exactly that. being without law.

This is a cyclic thing. Jesus shows us clearly that genuine obedience is more than merely complying to law; that if we love him we will not fail to listen to him and so be lawless. Therefore genuine obedience to law is motivated by love and that love keeps it unbroken.

The cycle of lawlessness is that lawlessness both begins with a lack of love and due to its affects tears down love further that lawlessness grows in dimension as a result. It becomes a self perpetuating cycle.

Ok. But Christ says specifically that because of lawlessness, then the love will grow cold. So it speaks of those having love already, with love being that which ends last. The cycle has to start somewhere. Where did it start? No law, or no love? According to Christ, it was no law.

 

[Who Says]

Ok. But Christ says specifically that because of lawlessness, then the love will grow cold. So it speaks of those having love already, with love being that which ends last. The cycle has to start somewhere. Where did it start? No law, or no love? According to Christ, it was no law.

That is the leaven which leavens the whole lump you are seeing.

It begins with one in the bunch falling from love.

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

[Nathan]

That is an excellent question:

1 Timothy 1:5 ¶Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

Ok. Lets go through them one at a time. For clarity. Please.

1Ti 1:1-11 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope, To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.

The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.

Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

Number one, everything done must be done through faith, and not in the flesh of man. One has to believe that he is able because Christ took away the old heart and put in the new. If 'law keeping' is a self effort, it is contaminated and sinful.

The aim is love, but wait, you cannot stop there, it issues from a pure heart, good conscience, and a sincere faith! The highest calling is ALWAYS been love. This is true since the law was given. It has never changed. You will find it through out the OT. But that love only flows out from the things described above. Otherwise, its not love.

Now. Certain 'men' swerved from this. They desired to be "teachers" and not followers, of the law. We know that we need no man to teach us. The Spirit teaches us.

Black and white; "the law is good"! If used lawfully! What is "lawfully"? nomimōs - 1) lawfully, agreeable to the law, properly. If one uses the law, in the way it was intend to, to show forth the righteousness and the goodness of our God, then it is right. If it is used to put people under bondage, to keep them down, to 'earn' righteousness; then that is not "lawfully".

It is laid down, for that which is sinful. That would be our flesh. When used lawfully in that regard, it is good. We, the soul inside the body, is just. We do not need the law to be over us. It is written on our hearts. It is there. But we use it to bring our bodies into subjection, and to renew our minds after the image of the creator. Its not our righteousness, but it shows forth our righteousness. It shows to others, when done lawfully in love, who God is.

 

[Nathan]

That is the leaven which leavens the whole lump you are seeing.

It begins with one in the bunch falling from love.

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

No, it does not begin with one falling from love. It begins with one falling into iniquity/lawlessness. If it was the other way around, then Matthew 24:12 would read like this;

Matthew 24:12 And because the love of many shall wax cold, iniquity shall abound.

That is not how it was written.

 

[Who Says]

I really thought that I had posted that Satan was the ONLY one. And indeed when I got back on line, I saw that it was correct.

I accept your statement that you meant it that way then.

However we are all well familiar that people say that same exact thing often intimating that it is Satan using us to do that.

And you must admit that is true.

Sorry if I mistook you.

 

[Who Says]

No, it does not begin with one falling from love. It begins with one falling into iniquity/lawlessness. If it was the other way around, then Matthew 24:12 would read like this;

Matthew 24:12 And because the love of many shall wax cold, iniquity shall abound.

That is not how it was written.

So then do you believe that it is possible for you to genuinely and completely love and still sin?

2 John 1:6 "And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it."

2 John 1:5 "And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another."

1 John 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

1 John 5:2 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments."

1 John 4:8 "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."

As I said, it works both ways and there Jesus is merely focusing on the leavening affect of sin upon love.

Falling from love or never loving in the first place are the only two but similsr things that allow failure to walk in God's commandments. Then the lawlessness proceeds to attack the love of others.

 

[Nathan]

Micah 6:8 "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

I love this verse. It was one of the very first verses that I hid in my heart. My desire, my desire not my flesh, has always been these things.

Mic 6:3-9 "O my people, what have I done to you? How have I wearied you? Answer me! For I brought you up from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, and I sent before you Moses, Aaron, and Miriam.

O my people, remember what Balak king of Moab devised, and what Balaam the son of Beor answered him, and what happened from Shittim to Gilgal, that you may know the saving acts of the LORD." "With what shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?"

He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? The voice of the LORD cries to the city--and it is sound wisdom to fear your name: "Hear of the rod and of him who appointed it!

What do you think it is like to walk humbly with God? Where is love in this verse? Is it left out? No. It is there. "Love kindness". Interesting that the word "kindness" is there.

Do you think that keeping Gods ten commandments would be humbling? I know it is.

Look at what Micah wrote about the cry of the LORD; "Hear the rod and of Him who appointed it!" What is the rod? You know.

Pro 23:13-14 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

The "rod" is the disciplinary measures taken by God on us. It hurts, and if we are anything like our kids, sometimes we simply think its mean and not good.

Hbr 12:4-14 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives." It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.

For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Holiness is what takes place in our bodies and mind. It is brought to that place under strict instruction. We receive that instruction from the law, but ALWAYS through love. It is love that we walk in His law. Its how we know we are being disciplined and loved by Him, the one true God, and not another god.