Bible Study The Law of God - The Law of Moses - The Law

[Nathan]

I accept your statement that you meant it that way then.

However we are all well familiar that people say that same exact thing often intimating that it is Satan using us to do that.

And you must admit that is true.

Sorry if I mistook you.

Assuredly! It is true, and it was why I was sad this morning. I do not like to be misinterpreted. I am ALWAYS open to answer questions. I would rather someone ask me a thousand questions, than to take one word out of context.

 

[Nathan]

So then do you believe that it is possible for you to genuinely and completely love and still sin?

2 John 1:6 "And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it."

2 John 1:5 "And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another."

1 John 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

1 John 5:2 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments."

1 John 4:8 "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."

No. I do not believe. I think that it goes hand in hand. It is the false teachers who Jesus speaks about in verse 11 teaching lawlessness, that leads to the condition in verse 12. They "think" they are loving, but they are not. First the fall of law, then the fall of love that immediately follows it. They cannot be separated.

Which is true in the regard that true lawful exercise of the grace of God will ALWAYS be shown in love. If not, its legalism. This is the connection that John is pointing out in the verses above.

 

[Nathan]

2 Corinthians 6:6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,

I am going to bypass this because I do not see how it lends itself to the question asked. No offense intended, but its just something that Paul is stating about what his ministry is like. In the context, it does not deal with the law.

 

[Nathan]

2 Timothy 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Again, I do not see the context being applicable to the law.

 

[Who Says]

Assuredly! It is true, and it was why I was sad this morning. I do not like to be misinterpreted. I am ALWAYS open to answer questions. I would rather someone ask me a thousand questions, than to take one word out of context.

then never present a loose statement like that alone with no context provided with it.

Come on. Laugh at yourself

 

[Nathan]

then never present a loose statement like that alone with no context provided with it.

Come on. Laugh at yourself

Me <---

In all seriousness, it was one of the last posts of the night. And it was a thought I had while pressing the submit button for my previous post. It all reality, it was supposed to be in that post. But I was tired and lazy. Yes. Its crazy how words can mean so much, huh.

 

[Who Says]

Again, I do not see the context being applicable to the law.

It demonstrates what Paul focused on seeing to prove obedience.

 

[Who Says]

Me <---

In all seriousness, it was one of the last posts of the night. And it was a thought I had while pressing the submit button for my previous post. It all reality, it was supposed to be in that post. But I was tired and lazy. Yes. Its crazy how words can mean so much, huh.

It is not like I never have done that. I do it more often than I care to admit.

It is not easy being as imperfect as I am

What is that emoticon supposed to be saying anyway? I mean this one

To be completely honest I must admit a measure of insecurity even in the way I took it. That is I believe part of the effect that the lawlessness all around us has on our love.

 

[Nathan]

It is not like I never have done that. I do it more often than I care to admit.

It is not easy being as imperfect as I am

What is that emoticon supposed to be saying anyway? I mean this one

 

[Who Says]

Ok. Lets go through them one at a time. For clarity. Please.

1Ti 1:1-11 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope, To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.

The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.

Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

Number one, everything done must be done through faith, and not in the flesh of man. One has to believe that he is able because Christ took away the old heart and put in the new. If 'law keeping' is a self effort, it is contaminated and sinful.

The aim is love, but wait, you cannot stop there, it issues from a pure heart, good conscience, and a sincere faith! The highest calling is ALWAYS been love. This is true since the law was given. It has never changed. You will find it through out the OT. But that love only flows out from the things described above. Otherwise, its not love.

Now. Certain 'men' swerved from this. They desired to be "teachers" and not followers, of the law. We know that we need no man to teach us. The Spirit teaches us.

Black and white; "the law is good"! If used lawfully! What is "lawfully"? nomimōs - 1) lawfully, agreeable to the law, properly. If one uses the law, in the way it was intend to, to show forth the righteousness and the goodness of our God, then it is right. If it is used to put people under bondage, to keep them down, to 'earn' righteousness; then that is not "lawfully".

It is laid down, for that which is sinful. That would be our flesh. When used lawfully in that regard, it is good. We, the soul inside the body, is just. We do not need the law to be over us. It is written on our hearts. It is there. But we use it to bring our bodies into subjection, and to renew our minds after the image of the creator. Its not our righteousness, but it shows forth our righteousness. It shows to others, when done lawfully in love, who God is.

We know the bulk of what you say there so well it is become as common sense.

The gap between knowing and applying is where love needs to exist.

But we ought to not stay so much in the know that we never press onto learning how to love in that gap. Otherwise we apply what we know all too often apart from love. And the evidence is extremely clear that is what is most predominantly happening around us. People are all over the place applying their knowledge apart from doing so in love. Their knowledge has become exactly as Paul said at 1 Corinthians 8:1 puffing them up to do injury to others with it.

We do not need to keep telling people what they already know. We must move on to focus on helping them learn what they do not know. And the most abundant thing they do not know is how to understand and use their knowledge according to God's love.

I remember my father saying, "I am not going to church because they say the same thing over and over as if I am stupid and did not hear them the first thousand times they said it!"

He was a sheep being led of shepherds who failed to shepherd him properly and look to supply to him what he needed most. He needed to be helped to see God's love and how to use that love in all his affairs.

That law has been in this world so long no man has any excuse to not know about it. Even non-Christians spread knowledge of that law among themselves.

But it is valueless apart from learning God's love so that they know how to properly use that knowledge of law.

PS/ Do you know why those shepherds did not teach my father God's love? Because they do not understand it themselves. That is why the church is broken up into feuding divisions which makes the world hate it and brings dishonor to God.

 

[Nathan]

Galatians 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

I will be 100% honest. Galatians was the #1 book I had to overcome with my own way of thinking about the law. Paul is very, very, emotionally charged in this letter. Wow. I could imagine sitting there hearing it read for the first time.

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him...

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?

Pretty striking words, among others. But to get on the point.

Gal 5:1-18 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

So, is Paul really saying that if you are circumcised, that you have to keep the whole law??? Oh, no. I am circumcised. Maybe thats why I feel the way I do...

No. That is not what Paul is saying. I know you know this. Yes I am being sarcastic. We KNOW Paul is not implying that just because one is circumcised that he HAS to keep the whole law, and not only that, but being severed from Christ??? Thats harsh, especially since he took Timothy and had him circumcised. Talk about putting a burden on someone.

No. Paul was talking about doing it in the respect of earning salvation because of it. When man desires to keep the law for the sake of pride, then he has just transgressed the greatest law of loving God with all the heart, mind, and soul. Seeking justification from the law is DEFINITELY falling from grace. Terrible.

For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?

This persuasion is not from him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. I have confidence in the Lord that you will take no other view than mine, and the one who is troubling you will bear the penalty, whoever he is. But if I, brothers, still preach circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed. I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!

For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.

Here is the heart. We were called to freedom. Freedom from 'trying' to be good. Freedom from looking to the law as our source of guidance. Freedom is the ability to follow the Spirit as He leads. Freedom is looking to the Spirit, not to the flesh. Which is why Paul states NOT to use it for an opportunity for the flesh.

The "whole law" is fulfilled in one word? Thats interesting. I distinctly remember someone saying it was two words. lol. Yes. Tis true. Its the fact that the whole law as it pertains to mankind dealing with each other, is indeed fulfilled, that is it is full-filled, in that word of love. Without love, you will not full-fill the law. This is why it is crucial to keep things in context. If we were simply looking at this passage, it very clearly states the "whole law", but we know that there is one greater as stated by Christ, and that is to love God with all our hearts, minds, and strength. This second one that Paul states is like unto the first.

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Whenever we step out from underneath the Spirits leading, we are under the law. It "disciplines" us, it hurts, it does not feel good, we do not like it. But its for our good. What does it do? It drives us back to Christ. The Spirit of Jesus and our flesh are against each other. That is why eventually the flesh will be destroyed. They cannot agree, they will not agree. This is the purpose for the law.

The law keeps us under the protection of Christ. It serves as a witness when we step out from under the Godhead. It shows forth who God is, and when we step away, we see that we are no longer IN Him. Its at that point that we have to make a decision to step back into, or keep doing our own thing. If we keep doing our own thing (missing the mark), then we have this law "above" us, constantly drawing us near. It shows us we are not walking in love to God, or to man.

When we step back into the leadership of Christ, through His Spirit, then the law is full-filled. We walk according to it. So whats the big deal huh? This is the big deal, if we look at the law, and it is contrary to what we are doing, do you not just wonder why? Can you say that you love someone and then lie and cheat and steal? Can you say you love God and use His name loosely, worship man made images, and think nothing of a day that He blessed and created holy just for you?

 

[Who Says]

Back up for a moment and read my post #270

 

[Nathan]

We know the bulk of what you say there so well it is become as common sense.

The gap between knowing and applying is where love needs to exist.

But we ought to not stay so much in the know that we never press onto learning how to love in that gap. Otherwise we apply what we know all too often apart from love. And the evidence is extremely clear that is what is most predominantly happening around us. People are all over the place applying their knowledge apart from doing so in love. Their knowledge has become exactly as Paul said at 1 Corinthians 8:1 puffing them up to do injury to others with it.

We do not need to keep telling people what they already know. We must move on to focus on helping them learn what they do not know. And the most abundant thing they do not know is how to understand and use their knowledge according to God's love.

I remember my father saying, "I am not going to church because they say the same thing over and over as if I am stupid and did not hear them the first thousand times they said it!"

He was a sheep being led of shepherds who failed to shepherd him properly and look to supply to him what he needed most. He needed to be helped to see God's love and how to use that love in all his affairs.

That law has been in this world so long no man has any excuse to not know about it. Even non-Christians spread knowledge of that law among themselves.

But it is valueless apart from learning God's love so that they know how to properly use that knowledge of law.

I believe the valuelessness comes not from the non-existence of love, for if one does not first love then he cannot do anything with the commands because they "hang" underneath that love. But I believe the valuelessness comes because of disobedience.

The Spirit is going to lead us if we are obedient. The fact comes when we see the law testifying against us, showing us that we are out of the leadership of the Spirit, and in our natural flesh we do one of two things;

#1. We try to keep the law ourselves. Which always ends in failure and dismay, only leading to more rebellion or puffed up pride.

#2. We fight against the "goads" and declare our 'freedom'. Not understanding that the discipline that comes from the hand of God, shown by His righteous law, is meant to lead us back in repentance.

We will love, and truly love, only when we are being led. That is when you see love being shown to others and to God.

Your right. There is much weariness in the study and search for earthly knowledge/righteousness. But Christ declared that those who sought for and desired heavenly righteousness would be blessed!

The knowledge of the law is good. It really is. It gives us a very precise 'picture' of who God is, of who Christ is. We did not walk with Christ. We only know what other wrote about Him. We have no idea other than what we learn and what we are taught by the Spirit. But we have this rock solid understanding, a test by which we can test all things, does what we are taught and learn speak against the law, and love?

There are a lot of people who look really loving. In fact, its how we understand that people are from God. But how do we know for sure? Well, does their love go contrary to the law? Of course it would not. Love is a full-fillment of the law. So what about the love of God people profess? Well, does their professed love go contrary to the law? Ahh...thats where it gets sticky. Or should I say "pesky".

 

[Nathan]

I am going to be out of pocket for a little bit. Bear with me.

 

[Who Says]

I will be 100% honest. Galatians was the #1 book I had to overcome with my own way of thinking about the law. Paul is very, very, emotionally charged in this letter. Wow. I could imagine sitting there hearing it read for the first time.

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him...

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?

Pretty striking words, among others. But to get on the point.

Gal 5:1-18 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

So, is Paul really saying that if you are circumcised, that you have to keep the whole law??? Oh, no. I am circumcised. Maybe thats why I feel the way I do...

No. That is not what Paul is saying. I know you know this. Yes I am being sarcastic. We KNOW Paul is not implying that just because one is circumcised that he HAS to keep the whole law, and not only that, but being severed from Christ??? Thats harsh, especially since he took Timothy and had him circumcised. Talk about putting a burden on someone.

No. Paul was talking about doing it in the respect of earning salvation because of it. When man desires to keep the law for the sake of pride, then he has just transgressed the greatest law of loving God with all the heart, mind, and soul. Seeking justification from the law is DEFINITELY falling from grace. Terrible.

For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?

This persuasion is not from him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. I have confidence in the Lord that you will take no other view than mine, and the one who is troubling you will bear the penalty, whoever he is. But if I, brothers, still preach circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed. I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!

For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.

Here is the heart. We were called to freedom. Freedom from 'trying' to be good. Freedom from looking to the law as our source of guidance. Freedom is the ability to follow the Spirit as He leads. Freedom is looking to the Spirit, not to the flesh. Which is why Paul states NOT to use it for an opportunity for the flesh.

The "whole law" is fulfilled in one word? Thats interesting. I distinctly remember someone saying it was two words. lol. Yes. Tis true. Its the fact that the whole law as it pertains to mankind dealing with each other, is indeed fulfilled, that is it is full-filled, in that word of love. Without love, you will not full-fill the law. This is why it is crucial to keep things in context. If we were simply looking at this passage, it very clearly states the "whole law", but we know that there is one greater as stated by Christ, and that is to love God with all our hearts, minds, and strength. This second one that Paul states is like unto the first.

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Whenever we step out from underneath the Spirits leading, we are under the law. It "disciplines" us, it hurts, it does not feel good, we do not like it. But its for our good. What does it do? It drives us back to Christ. The Spirit of Jesus and our flesh are against each other. That is why eventually the flesh will be destroyed. They cannot agree, they will not agree. This is the purpose for the law.

The law keeps us under the protection of Christ. It serves as a witness when we step out from under the Godhead. It shows forth who God is, and when we step away, we see that we are no longer IN Him. Its at that point that we have to make a decision to step back into, or keep doing our own thing. If we keep doing our own thing (missing the mark), then we have this law "above" us, constantly drawing us near. It shows us we are not walking in love to God, or to man.

When we step back into the leadership of Christ, through His Spirit, then the law is full-filled. We walk according to it. So whats the big deal huh? This is the big deal, if we look at the law, and it is contrary to what we are doing, do you not just wonder why? Can you say that you love someone and then lie and cheat and steal? Can you say you love God and use His name loosely, worship man made images, and think nothing of a day that He blessed and created holy just for you?

There again is much insight in what you say here.

I have seen in it what I think my be the thing is that is missing in your knowledge.

The sad part is that what I see you to be failing to understand is in ways more difficult to grasp than anything we have talked about thus far.

I will not tell you this second as I know it is going to be an emotionally difficult thing for us to discuss. We will discuss it soon if you are willing once I tell you what it is.

For now, since you say you are so in depth about Galatians, would you mind if I put that claim to the test?

 

[Who Says]

I believe the valuelessness comes not from the non-existence of love, for if one does not first love then he cannot do anything with the commands because they "hang" underneath that love. But I believe the valuelessness comes because of disobedience.

The Spirit is going to lead us if we are obedient. The fact comes when we see the law testifying against us, showing us that we are out of the leadership of the Spirit, and in our natural flesh we do one of two things;

#1. We try to keep the law ourselves. Which always ends in failure and dismay, only leading to more rebellion or puffed up pride.

#2. We fight against the "goads" and declare our 'freedom'. Not understanding that the discipline that comes from the hand of God, shown by His righteous law, is meant to lead us back in repentance.

We will love, and truly love, only when we are being led. That is when you see love being shown to others and to God.

Your right. There is much weariness in the study and search for earthly knowledge/righteousness. But Christ declared that those who sought for and desired heavenly righteousness would be blessed!

The knowledge of the law is good. It really is. It gives us a very precise 'picture' of who God is, of who Christ is. We did not walk with Christ. We only know what other wrote about Him. We have no idea other than what we learn and what we are taught by the Spirit. But we have this rock solid understanding, a test by which we can test all things, does what we are taught and learn speak against the law, and love?

There are a lot of people who look really loving. In fact, its how we understand that people are from God. But how do we know for sure? Well, does their love go contrary to the law? Of course it would not. Love is a full-fillment of the law. So what about the love of God people profess? Well, does their professed love go contrary to the law? Ahh...thats where it gets sticky. Or should I say "pesky".

That is interesting because I see the same seem thing missing here that I did in your post #271.

It blinded you to the full sight of what I said in #270.

But i would like to grill you on Galatians before I tell you what it is if that is OK with you?

 

[Nathan]

That is interesting because I see the same seem thing missing here that I did in your post #271.

It blinded you to the full sight of what I said in #270.

But i would like to grill you on Galatians before I tell you what it is if that is OK with you?

By all means. I am always ready to give an answer to the hope in me.

 

[Who Says]

By all means. I am always ready to give an answer to the hope in me.

Tell me what you think Paul said at Galatians 1:15

This is realted to what he says elsewhere in his letter.

Don't over-think it. You said you have previously understood Galatians so just state freely your current understanding of it so we can move this along.

You need not back it up with scriptures, just cuff it. Say it from right off the cuff. I already am familiar with many different understandings of it and already know any scripture you could give to support any view of it you have, anyway.

 

[Nathan]

Tell me what you think Paul said at Galatians 1:15

This is realted to what he says elsewhere in his letter.

Don't over-think it. You said you have previously understood Galatians so just state freely your current understanding of it so we can move this along.

God called him from before he was born. That calling was for God to fulfill a role intended to proclaim the Gospel to the Gentiles. This was all done through His grace.

 

[Who Says]

God called him from before he was born. That calling was for God to fulfill a role intended to proclaim the Gospel to the Gentiles. This was all done through His grace.

Thank you.

Now tell me what Paul did immediately after that birth as he continues to speak.

Or I could just lay it all out as I see it and let you comment on what I say?

I will take you around in the local context of that chapter and other chapters of that letter and also to What Paul told the Corinthians about this same event.

And I will show you how something from the book of Revelation ties into it.