Bible Study The Law of God - The Law of Moses - The Law

[Nathan]

Ok, I know you guys don't want to argue but you are not seeing what I am seeing.
Who were the 10 given to? The Isaerilites.
Why? They were pulled out of an evil society and taught how to behave
That was their covenant.
Now we have the Word, the NT, Jesus.
Who was Jesus given to? Us
Why? Because livig under the law could not save us

Yes. They were given, rather entrusted, to the Israelites. There responsibility was to be a light for the world.

No. They were put into bondage, then brought out of it. The commands were meant for instruction, to give testimony of who God is. So that they would understand who the God of heaven is. He has not changed, why would the testimony of Himself change?

There was a covenant given also. The covenant was the fact of THIS IS WHO I AM, I WILL NOT CHANGE, YOU CAN COUNT ON MY ALWAYS BEING THE SAME. If you can find where He states He has changed...you would be showing me something I have never seen.

Jesus was the promised Messiah. The promises belong to them also. They did not receive their promises at that time. Hebrews 11 speaks to this. Jesus is NOT just for us.

Living under the law cannot and WILL NOT save us. Christ will save us. The law is the testimony of where are walk is with Him. It is a rod to measure up against. It is perfect, eternal, and lovingly given to us. It shows us when we have strayed, it is a witness to our love for God and each other. It will do everything it has always stated it can do.

 

[Jake]

So...Do you not have hatred in your heart, but believe its ok to physically murder someone? Do you refrain from lusting after women, but don't think otherwise of actually committing physical acts with them? Do you not covet others possessions, but instead just spend your time getting them yourself?

Just because something is understood better does not mean that the original meaning is erased. We simply understand the commands better now.

No, that is not what Jesus meant, the 10 said "do not commit adultery", Jesus raise the standard to say, do not even THINKG about it. I am telling you our standard is Jesus. Who are we to conform to?

Matthew 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

 

[Nathan]

Jesus fulfilled the law, when we walk in the Spirit, it is fulfilled in us. It's completed.


Romans 8: 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Original Word: πληρόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pléroó
Phonetic Spelling: (play-ro'-o)
Short Definition: I fill, fulfill, complete
Definition: I fill, fulfill, complete.


Cognate: 4137 plēróō (from plērēs, "be full," see 4130 /plḗthō) – properly, fill to individual capacity, i.e. to the extent it is "meet" (appropriate). See 4130 (plēthō).

Yes. It is impossible to obey His commands apart from the work of the Spirit in our lives, conforming us, and bringing us into the image of Christ. It will indeed be fulfilled only if we walk in the Spirit. But where do you see that it is abolished?

 

[Jake]

Jesus fulfilled the law, when we walk in the Spirit, it is fulfilled in us. It's completed.


Romans 8: 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Original Word: πληρόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pléroó
Phonetic Spelling: (play-ro'-o)
Short Definition: I fill, fulfill, complete
Definition: I fill, fulfill, complete.


Cognate: 4137 plēróō (from plērēs, "be full," see 4130 /plḗthō) – properly, fill to individual capacity, i.e. to the extent it is "meet" (appropriate). See 4130 (plēthō).

God's standards are higher for us, we now have Jesus in us, we have His Spirit, they did not. How much more does God expect from us? That He gave His only begotten Son and the Israelites simply sacrificed bulls and rams?

Matthew 5:38-48 {38} “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ {39} But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; {40} and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; 41 and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. {42} Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you. {43} “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ {44} But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, {45} so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. {46} For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? {47} And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? {48} Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Nathan]

No, that is not what Jesus meant, the 10 said "do not commit adultery", Jesus raise the standard to say, do not even THINKG about it. I am telling you our standard is Jesus. Who are we to conform to?

Matthew 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Exactly! We are to conform to Christ. Did Christ obey the law of God?

 

[Jake]

Yes. They were given, rather entrusted, to the Israelites. There responsibility was to be a light for the world.

No. They were put into bondage, then brought out of it. The commands were meant for instruction, to give testimony of who God is. So that they would understand who the God of heaven is. He has not changed, why would the testimony of Himself change?

There was a covenant given also. The covenant was the fact of THIS IS WHO I AM, I WILL NOT CHANGE, YOU CAN COUNT ON MY ALWAYS BEING THE SAME. If you can find where He states He has changed...you would be showing me something I have never seen.

Jesus was the promised Messiah. The promises belong to them also. They did not receive their promises at that time. Hebrews 11 speaks to this. Jesus is NOT just for us.

Living under the law cannot and WILL NOT save us. Christ will save us. The law is the testimony of where are walk is with Him. It is a rod to measure up against. It is perfect, eternal, and lovingly given to us. It shows us when we have strayed, it is a witness to our love for God and each other. It will do everything it has always stated it can do.

Nathan,
God does not change........but......
His covenant did! We have two separate covenants.

One was given to the Israelites

The New was given to US.

 

[Nathan]

God's standards are higher for us, we now have Jesus in us, we have His Spirit, they did not. How much more does God expect from us? That He gave His only begotten Son and the Israelites simply sacrificed bulls and rams?

Matthew 5:38-48 {38} “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ {39} But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; {40} and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; 41 and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. {42} Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you. {43} “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ {44} But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, {45} so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. {46} For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? {47} And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? {48} Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

So the Spirit of Christ in us will not walk according to the law that He created??? The Spirit of Christ is not going to lead us in the way of the righteousness of the testimony of God? Have you ever read 1John as a full letter and not just a few verses at a time as some like to do?

 

[Nathan]

Nathan,
God does not change........but......
His covenant did! We have two separate covenants.

One was given to the Israelites

The New was given to US.

What is the difference? Your right, but you will find what you seek in the difference.

 

[Jake]

I will break this up as best I can. I could not find my other writings I wrote in the past. I need to get better organized! LOL. Anyway I will just write it as the Spirit comes to me.

After the Israelites under the leadership of Joshua finally entered the promised land in fulfillment of God’s promises, we are told, (Joshua 21:44-45) “And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. 45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.â€

The Sabbath that Israel was required to keep would become both commemorative of the minor fulfillment we see at Joshua 21:44-45 and the greater fulfillment in the Messiah to come which gives those who enter him rest in a far greater way.

Never the less, the Sabbath that Israel was required to keep was also a part of the Law written to sin as it punished those who violated the letter of the Law concerning keeping the Sabbath.

Seeing what it pictured in its minor fulfillment helps us see that it is significant that God allowed Jerusalem in the first century to be surrounded around by her enemies during the Sabbath. This was a definite proof of the loss of God’s favor and protection.

James 2: 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is become guilty of all.

Tell me Who Says, how exaclty do you keep that Sabbath day holy?

 

[Nathan]

I will break this up as best I can. I could not find my other writings I wrote in the past. I need to get better organized! LOL. Anyway I will just write it as the Spirit comes to me.

After the Israelites under the leadership of Joshua finally entered the promised land in fulfillment of God’s promises, we are told, (Joshua 21:44-45) “And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. 45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.â€

The Sabbath that Israel was required to keep would become both commemorative of the minor fulfillment we see at Joshua 21:44-45 and the greater fulfillment in the Messiah to come which gives those who enter him rest in a far greater way.

Never the less, the Sabbath that Israel was required to keep was also a part of the Law written to sin as it punished those who violated the letter of the Law concerning keeping the Sabbath.

Seeing what it pictured in its minor fulfillment helps us see that it is significant that God allowed Jerusalem in the first century to be surrounded around by her enemies during the Sabbath. This was a definite proof of the loss of God’s favor and protection.

So...you do or do not believe it to be a literal day?

 

[Jake]

Yes. It is impossible to obey His commands apart from the work of the Spirit in our lives, conforming us, and bringing us into the image of Christ. It will indeed be fulfilled only if we walk in the Spirit. But where do you see that it is abolished?

Nathan - I have never, not once said the law was abolished. It was FULFILLED, which means completed, done, in Christ.

Christ IS the law.

 

[Who Says]

...

Yes, they are not just two that wiped away all the others. The others 'hang' underneath them, intact, just as they were written. This is why they are test-imonies. If you truly are, and not as the Pharisee would, keeping and obeying the law of God, then the final test is if these things are done in love.

Just because all the others hang on these two, does not mean they are not applicable. They are, they are there. In fact, because they 'hang' on the others, you cannot but help to see them when considering (meditating) on the two above them. That is, unless you have tunnel vision.

The word translated "hang" is kremannymi

1) to hang up, suspend
2) to be suspended, to hang

The ESV translates it as "depend".

The two commands in view are never stated to have abolished, removed, replaced, or substituted the other law. The ONLY place we find ANY such reference is in the abolishment of the law as contained in ordinances, which are the sacrifices and all that surrounded them. These WERE done away with in Christ as He became our perfect sacrifice and there is no need of the blood of bulls and goats anymore.

Much of it comes down to our seeing that we can either continue to live in the shadow or begin moving out of that shadow into the reality. Christ is that reality.

Colossians 2:16-17 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

Galatians 4:9-11 "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."

But I want all to see that Paul is yet being patient there. For he also said, Romans 14:5 "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."

 

[Jake]

Exactly! We are to conform to Christ. Did Christ obey the law of God?

Christ obeyed his own:

Mark 12: 30 and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength.

 

[Nathan]

Nathan - I have never, not once said the law was abolished. It was FULFILLED, which means completed, done, in Christ.

Christ IS the law.

Ok. So where do you find that it is not applicable to us, since Chris fulfilled it. If I obey EVERY law of the country, I have fulfilled the law. Does that mean that you do not have to obey?

 

[Jake]

Much of it comes down to our seeing that we can either continue to live in the shadow or begin moving out of that shadow into the reality. Christ is that reality.

Colossians 2:16-17 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

Galatians 4:9-11 "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."

If you are saying what I am thinking you are saying, then you are correct.
The 10 was the shadow for Christ, now we have Christ, the new replaced the old.

 

[Jake]

Ok. So where do you find that it is not applicable to us, since Chris fulfilled it. If I obey EVERY law of the country, I have fulfilled the law. Does that mean that you do not have to obey?

Have you read the NT, Nathan?

Of course I need to be in obedience to God. Do I need to now find all the scripture about obedience, all the "if" statements.

Faith and obedience is key to our journey in Christ.

 

[Jake]

But I want all to see that Paul is yet being patient there. For he also said, Romans 14:5 "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."

I want to make myself very clear and I said this in another thread, I am in NO WAY judging anyone for keeping the Sabbath. My own brother keeps the Sabbath and the Word tells me not to judge another for doing that.

My problem is being told I am going to hell because I do not keep the Sabbath, if I do not judge one, then they should not judge me.

Now if you present the 10 to me and tell me I am under the law, then I will debate, but I am NOT judging anyone for keeping the Sabbath.

 

[Nathan]

Much of it comes down to our seeing that we can either continue to live in the shadow or begin moving out of that shadow into the reality. Christ is that reality.

Colossians 2:16-17 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

Galatians 4:9-11 "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."

But I want all to see that Paul is yet being patient there. For he also said, Romans 14:5 "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."

What does this have to do with the testimony and witnesses of God? Yes. This is true in the ordinances and regulations, but where do we find the written testimony of God Himself in these?

Precisely! If you do good, and obey the requirements of the law, and then turn around and not love your brother, you have NOT obeyed the law of God.

Jam 4:11 Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.

If we judge the person, not showing love, then we are at that point not a doer but a judge. However, if we do not judge, but love we then become a doer of the law.

 

[Nathan]

Have you read the NT, Nathan?

Of course I need to be in obedience to God. Do I need to now find all the scripture about obedience, all the "if" statements.

Faith and obedience is key to our journey in Christ.

Rev 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

This is in the NT . What are the commandments of God that are spoken of here?

 

[Jake]

Rev 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

This is in the NT . What are the commandments of God that are spoken of here?

I am aware this is in the NT, we are to be obedient to God, all that is written in the NT, there are many, many "if" statements.

We believe and we do His Word.

We were given Jesus, the Word - we were never given the covenants in the OT, those were given to the Israelites.