Bible Study The Law of God - The Law of Moses - The Law

[Nathan]

Contemplate this Rockie,

The ark of the testimony always had to go before the people. They 'followed' it. It was their source of 'aim' while in the wilderness and when taking over the 'enemy'. Without it they were powerless. Just take a moment, and look at what the ark represented to them, and then contemplate about how we are likened to them in all the other aspects.

Then, think about why the whole of the law was placed on the side, and contemplate the cross.

 

[Nathan]

Righteousness comes apart from all the law, but Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Believing God does credit us with righteousness, so our work is believing in Christ.

It may seem OT here, but I do not agree, salvation is a gift - yes. Yet, the new covenant is a contract between God and us. So He is faithful in keeping His end and we must be faithful in keeping our end. That is why there are "if" statements in the NT.

Our salvation is conditional upon our faith and obedience - IN THE NEW COVENANT.

What do you not agree on? It seems that you said the same thing I did but in different words.

 

[Nathan]

1 Kings 7:9 + Exod. 20:20 later on Moses (Arron?) Rod that buddeth was also put into the Ark (you can look that verse up!;) & Rev. 11:18-19's Original Temple of God finds it still there!

Agreed! I was writing about this probably at the same time you were, I had to stop and help my wife with something and did not get it out quick enough.

3 things in the ark, and 3 things only. And they are still there, why? You know! Because its His eternal covenant that He Himself made and is not dependent upon mans fleshly help. Its an eternal witness of who He is, and He will never change.

 

[Nathan]

I'm not sure, you made my brain mush by what you said. ha No offense.
We have His commandments written in our hearts, LOVE.
Praise God, now we are in newness of the Spirit!


Romans7:6 But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.

Consider for a moment the verse you quoted.

Rom 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

Paul is comparing how we serve.

 

[Jake]

What do you not agree on? It seems that you said the same thing I did but in different words.

I wasn't really arguing, but was trying to point out that when we believe in God, it credits us with righteousness. And I am really trying to learn here believe it or not.
Maybe we are both in error here, tell me what you think, we both said righteousness comes apart from the law, right? We know it could not be achieved under the old law, however, Abraham believed and it was credited to Him as righteousness, so is believing in God, and all of His promises, a commandment? Yes.

Does anyone understand what I am trying to say? Maybe I need to take a break. HA.

 

[Nathan]

I wasn't really arguing, but was trying to point out that when we believe in God, it credits us with righteousness. And I am really trying to learn here believe it or not.
Maybe we are both in error here, tell me what you think, we both said righteousness comes apart from the law, right? We know it could not be achieved under the old law, however, Abraham believed and it was credited to Him as righteousness, so is believing in God, and all of His promises, a commandment? Yes.

Does anyone understand what I am trying to say? Maybe I need to take a break. HA.

Hey, no worries. Seriously. I just found it humorous is all. Disagreeing is not arguing. In fact, we should all disagree with each other until we see that the other one is walking in the truth. But we should refrain from arguing. We are all trying to learn, I think, I know I am. Its just where we are trusting our learning to come from. Talking like this is good. Its not bad. What it does is get our minds active, focusing, and then the Spirit can better speak to us.

No, I do not believe its a commandment. It is His desire! Everything He has done is to point us to a willful decision to Him. His laws, His rules, His testimony, and His Son. Its all to show us who He is, and what He desires. That is why God referred to Him as friend! Just like it was in the Garden. But we understand the difference.

 

[Who Says]

Righteousness comes apart from all the law, but Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Believing God does credit us with righteousness, so our work is believing in Christ. Believing is obedience to God.

It may seem OT here, but I do not agree, salvation is a gift - yes. Yet, the new covenant is a contract between God and us. So He is faithful in keeping His end and we must be faithful in keeping our end. That is why there are "if" statements in the NT.

Our salvation is conditional upon our faith and obedience - IN THE NEW COVENANT.

Salvation cannot be anything but a gift. We were all confined under sin and sentenced to death right there in Adams loins. Dead men do not have works.

Therefore under the grace of God that gives us, as a gift, accreditation of righteousness which allows God to see us as alive (for the unrighteous cannot be justly given life) we better have this attitude:

Ecclesiastes 9:10 "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

Does our having to have that attitude make salvation not a gift? Not if it is not our works we put our hand to. Disowning ourselves we put our hand to God's works as defined by his law doing so out of love because he loved us first by accrediting righteousness to us by means of the ransom of His own Son.

 

[Elijah674]

Salvation cannot be anything but a gift. We were all confined under sin and sentenced to death right there in Adams loins. Dead men do not have works.

Therefore under the grace of God that gives us, as a gift, accreditation of righteousness which allows God to see us as alive (for the unrighteous cannot be justly given life) we better have this attitude:

Ecclesiastes 9:10 "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

Does our having to have that attitude make salvation not a gift? Not if it is not our works we put our hand to. Disowning ourselves we put our hand to God's works as defined by his law doing so out of love because he loved us first by accrediting righteousness to us by means of the ransom of His own Son.

I agree.

A Gift yes, but a CONDITIONAL One. Acts 5:32 (even see Cain in Gen. 4:7 given another chance) The Holy Spirit is given ONLY TO THOSE WHO WILL YIELD OBEDIENCE TO HIM.

And then again we must BE LED OF HIM! Rom. 8:14. (and FOLLOW!) We are lost, but God says IF YOU WILL OBEY MY COMMANDMENTS I will SAVE YOU! And that is from day one on!

In other words, Christ's Free Grace is what Saves, yet, we have a part of MATURING or staying saved! Phil. 4:13 'I can do all things through Christ that strengtheneth me.' + My GRACE IS SUFFICENT FOR YOU, MY STRENGTH IS MADE PERFECT IN WEAKNESS!

But it is our 'free' choice to use Christ's free provisions of Grace & Strength! Born Again LOVING FAITH Moves Forward! [[[In Working LOVING Obedience]]] (If we will!)

 

[Nathan]

I agree.

A Gift yes, but a CONDITIONAL One. Acts 5:32 (even see Cain in Gen. 4:7 given another chance) The Holy Spirit is given ONLY TO THOSE WHO WILL YIELD OBEDIENCE TO HIM.

And then again we must BE LED OF HIM! Rom. 8:14. (and FOLLOW!) We are lost, but God says IF YOU WILL OBEY MY COMMANDMENTS I will SAVE YOU! And that is from day one on!

In other words, Christ's Free Grace is what Saves, yet, we have a part of MATURING or staying saved! Phil. 4:13 'I can do all things through Christ that strengtheneth me.' + My GRACE IS SUFFICENT FOR YOU, MY STRENGTH IS MADE PERFECT IN WEAKNESS!

But it is our 'free' choice to use Christ's free provisions of Grace & Strength! Born Again LOVING FAITH Moves Forward! [[[In Working LOVING Obedience]]] (If we will!)

Right!

First grace, through faith;

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

THEN faith must grow, if not, it dies;

Luk 8:11-15 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature.

As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.

And those who hear and hold fast? Sounds like a good definition of faith to me!

Jam 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him...So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Its not the working that saves, but its the working that proves! And we know that this working is true and right, not of the enemy, and not of ourselves, when it lines up with the testimony of God! Only God working through us to produce that fruit is true faith, and only true faith will save to the end.

 

[Jake]

OK. I accept that.

Would you like to explore those subjects in a serious and sober manner with me?

Yes.

 

[Jake]

Would it be ok with you if we continued this tomorrow? I would like to get some sleep.

 

[Who Says]

Would it be ok with you if we continued this tomorrow? I would like to get some sleep.

Yes it would.

I am tired myself.

 

[Wings]

These are good questions. I do not personally believe that they both were exactly the same. I believe that the testimony placed inside the ark just contained the ten words. I believe that the one placed on the side of the ark contained all the ordinances and such that were given. The one inside was just a testament of who God is and what He requires. It is the principal of how we can distinguish Him apart from all the other "gods" that are out there. The one placed on the side, with the ordinances and regulations is how we can 'relate' to God. This, I believe, is the direct representation of who Christ is. Of course, the one on the side would have also contained the ten words.

The bearing, to reiterate, is that we can see and test false spirits against the law of God. They will not be contrary to it. Even ourselves, when held up, should be fulfilling the law as we are in Christ. Christ fulfilled the law, so if we are in Him, we will be too. I look at them as the test-imonie, and witness, to the one True God. If you find "love" apart from them, that does not point back too them, then its not true love.

My whole premise, which seems to get smeared around a lot in the manner in which I have not stated it, is that we can know the truth of Godly love simply by examining how it stands up against the law. My premise is NOT that we are under the law, and through that obedience to it, then we love. That is not it at all. We love, and through that obedience, we find the law being fulfilled in our 'wake'.

Now, the over riding thought for all of this is because we are to a day and age in our society that we actually see Christians asking if its ok to lie, cheat, steal, worship false gods, etc. Obviously they "claim" these things are done in love. If they were, then they would not speak against the testimony of God. If a person is in Christ then they are NOT going to lie. Christ never lied.

We have this idea that obedience to "love" will cover things that are contrary to the law. Passage upon passage is taken out of context and the whole of the Bible is being broken down bit by bit. We are starting to 'wonder' through this pilgrimage on earth all the while stating "love, love, love". There will come a time when this "love" of ours will be tested by God. He does this to all He truly loves. And when this moment of testing comes, will we be able to identify what true love is? We should, there is a written record of it.

Just the same when Jesus blinded the eyes of the guys on the road, then proceeded to show them the Scriptures, and when they still would not believe He stated:

Luk 24:25 And he said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!

He scolded them for their unbelieving, even though He had blinded them to the fact of who He was. Why? Because He wanted to show them that the Scriptures, the OT, showed everything He was. There is documented, physical proof, of who God is and what His love looks like. My plea is that we do not be like the guys, and see who Christ is and what true love looks like. Not this mushy, mushy worldly love junk that many are following straight into the pits of hell. And NO I am not talking specifically about anyone. Just them who follow it.

Hi Nathan,

You have explained yourself very well. Thank you for responding.

I think maybe you are right about the law written down by Moses, that is what I also thought maybe the case. However there is nothing which actually tells us that this is so is there? So I would not wish to say so categorically.

What matters is that we know that 'in Christ' we have died to the law and all it's claims. Not that 'we' as Gentile believers were ever under the law given at Sinai, which was part of the covenant given to the Children of Israel. The law we were under, and still are for that matter, is the law of conscience which everyman is subject to.

We have the Word of God as our 'yardstick' by which we can measure our actions, for all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for 'doctrine', 'reproof', correction and instruction in righteousness.)2 Tim. 3:16). Which is what I believe you are saying in your entry above really.

In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.

Wings

 

[Elijah674]

Would it be ok with you if we continued this tomorrow? I would like to get some sleep.

No sarcasm intended at all. 'i' to am tired & just got up! but here is my rhetorical question. (or remark)

If we are resting in Christ & the Laws of God are not intended for 'me' to keep any longer because Christ is now my rest, as we are hearing, why do we now read this [post] that requires 'some sleep'??? And what happens if we just do not get this sleep?? And is that another law that we also just cannot seem to ditch??? And the law of gravity?

 

[Elijah674]

Seeing that Abram Obeyed your VOICE Lord in Gen. 12:1 & was also a 'soul winner' in verse 5. How did these all become Jews as the some say? And what did Abram teach them to even be considered 'Your' souls? And Jonah, and his message, it contained 'no' Eternal Covenant (Heb. 13:20) as these 'still' false ones teach???

And Lord, over in Gen. 26:3-5 you give Your Word by an OATH to Abram, telling us that when you called him in past/tense it was because that he had OBEYED YOUR VOICE! (see Acts 5:32!) These are your Word's Lord, in Your 'Inspiration' of past/tense terminology!
'Because that Abraham obeyed My VOICE, and [kept My charge, My commandments, My statues, and My laws.]' (and this was long long before any Jew came on the scene! and some even wonder why the Lord Himself put the Word REMEMBER before the 4th Sabbath Commandment of the ten)

Lord, is it as these false ones say + many false preacher's, and that You do change, and that You are not the same forever?? (HARDLY!) Malachi 3:6 & Heb. 13:8-9. And I note that this is in the N.T. Gentile side of Your ONE ETERNAL GOSPEL! Rev. 14:6
Again: Where You say: "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, [and forever]. Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines." I understand that it is you, that cannot lie, and that it is these guy's that post which are soon to be as you say in Obad. 1:16, yet, is there anything even more clear from You for the forum here to see than that all the Born Again Gentiles will Obey you in heaven & keep your 7th day Sabbath? (Lord 'i' feel like Abraham in this post, as seen in Gen. 18:32)

OK: You say, (Luke 16:31 ) if they will not believe this, they would not believe anything much?? Isaiah 66:22-23 'For the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall [all flesh] come to worship before Me, saieth the Lord.'

No Lord, I doubt that these guy's even reads this, for they says that they know all your Luke 12:47-48 Truth? and these Words of yours would be called just that of 'tossed out law' most likely? But yes, I understand that there just might be one sincere person who.. 'just does not know it all', who could see plainly that the Godheads 7th day Sabbath is the day that You have Set Aside and 'required' for Holy use, and that You Blessed the day, and it is for all of your 'saved' creation to worship You on. Be they even the Gentile one that Loves their Master, huh?

One more, Lord? Ok forum, how many of the Godheads created angels keep the Godhead's Words? (All of them!! 2 Tim. 3:16 & Matt. 4:4!!) Unless the false teachers can convince some that the angels are Jews??
In Rev. 22:8-10 we see John awestruck at the angels message! And John fell down before the feet of the angel. (you do remember where is was written for us not to do this, right? Exodus 20:4-5)

And in verse 9 of Rev. 22 the angel speaks to John saying: "Then he saith unto me, See that thou do it not: for I am [of thy brethren the prophets], and [of them which keep the sayings of this book]: worship God."

Notice that this Inspiration includes ALL of the Godheads creation! Compare Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 for the whole duty of MAN! All 10! James 2:8-12

PS: The delete function did not work?

--Elijah

 

[Nathan]

Hi Nathan,

You have explained yourself very well. Thank you for responding.

I think maybe you are right about the law written down by Moses, that is what I also thought maybe the case. However there is nothing which actually tells us that this is so is there? So I would not wish to say so categorically.

What matters is that we know that 'in Christ' we have died to the law and all it's claims. Not that 'we' as Gentile believers were ever under the law given at Sinai, which was part of the covenant given to the Children of Israel. The law we were under, and still are for that matter, is the law of conscience which everyman is subject to.

We have the Word of God as our 'yardstick' by which we can measure our actions, for all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for 'doctrine', 'reproof', correction and instruction in righteousness.)2 Tim. 3:16). Which is what I believe you are saying in your entry above really.

In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.

Wings

Thanks for seeing that I in no way think we are "under" the law. It seems I have had to defend that point more than been able to explain the other. But I know that defense always takes more out of a person than proclamation.

I am curious though, I do not doubt your statement, but would like some clarification on the direct intent of it if you do not mind expounding on it.

I think maybe you are right about the law written down by Moses, that is what I also thought maybe the case. However there is nothing which actually tells us that this is so is there?

I am just curious if there is a specific part of my response or if it was a blanket statement on it.

Indeed we are not under the law given at Mnt. Sinai, but that in no way means that the testimony God gave them is not the same testimony of Himself today. He never changes, so therefore His testimony never changes.

One point that we are in disagreement on, not that I want to argue, but we may just not be seeing from the same angle is that we ARE under a law even now.

1Cr 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

Paul here is describing how it is he reaches out to people. He does not describe himself ever, in any of his writings, being outside the law of God. And at the same time, he never says he is "under" them. But what he does state is that he is under the law of Christ. That is the law of love. That law, we are under. We today have a written set of commands given by Christ Himself.

Jhn 15:10-12 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

So yes, I do believe that all Scripture is, and should be, used to 'measure' our love and actions. The conscience part I do not so much agree with because some can take that as 'every man does what is right in his own eyes' kind of law. This is what we see happening today, in the name of love. And is the primary reason for this thread.

Pilate asked Jesus "What is true?". He said this in a scoffing manner, as if truth was so obscured by everyones self reasoning. Who can we believe anymore? I believe that just as it was in Christ's first coming, so shall it be in His second. Even when you look at the letter to the church in Laodicea, you find them rejecting even Christ's own counsel for their own 'conscience'.

Rev 3:17-18 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.

I think that the long suffering of the Lord is most certainly salvation for us. I think that in this time of counsel and blinded eyes within the so called "church", there is still time for us to obey His voice and receive the gold(wisdom), the white garments(sanctification), and the salve(Spiritual awakening).

 

[ada]

@Elijah674
Your vain letter size rising and color setting makes me refuse to read it..

 

[Who Says]

@Elijah674
Your vain letter size rising and color setting makes me refuse to read it..

You think that's something, I woke up early this morning and was filled with fear as i saw an intruder standing in my bathroom.

That shocked me awake enough to realize it was only my reflection in the mirror.

This little guy is this time talking about me:

I don't get people who interrupt when they see another person day dreaming. I mean don't they know that is the only way some of us have to take a vacation?

Sign posted: On Vacation - Please Do Not Disturb

 

[Elijah674]

@Elijah674
Your vain letter size rising and color setting makes me refuse to read it..

Vain?? Your post sounds like just another 'mind reading' one??' You know why 'i' use emphasis, huh? Well then, try this just for you? (and I will atempt to deleat the other one to save forum space!)

Seeing that Abram Obeyed your VOICE Lord in Gen. 12:1 & was also a 'soul winner' in verse 5. How did these all become Jews as the some say? And what did Abram teach them to even be considered 'Your' souls? And Jonah, and his message, it contained 'no' Eternal Covenant (Heb. 13:20) as these 'still' false ones teach???

And Lord, over in Gen. 26:3-5 you give Your Word by an OATH to Abram, telling us that when you called him in past/tense it was because that he had OBEYED YOUR VOICE! (see Acts 5:32!) These are your Word's Lord, in Your 'Inspiration' of past/tense terminology!
'Because that Abraham obeyed My VOICE, and [kept My charge, My commandments, My statues, and My laws.]'

(And this was long long before any Jewcame on the scene! and some even wonder why the Lord Himself put the Word REMEMBER before the 4th Sabbath Commandment of the ten)

Lord, is it as these false ones say + many false preacher's, and that You do change, and that You are not the same forever?? (HARDLY!) Malachi 3:6 & Heb. 13:8-9. And I note that this is in the N.T. Gentile side of Your ONE ETERNAL GOSPEL! Rev. 14:6
Again: Where You say: "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, [and forever]. Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines." I understand that it is you, that cannot lie, and that it is these guy's that post which are soon to be as you say in Obad. 1:16, yet, is there anything even more clear from You for the forum here to see than that all the Born Again Gentiles will Obey you in heaven & keep your 7th day Sabbath? (Lord 'i' feel like Abraham in this post, as seen in Gen. 18:32)

OK: You say, (Luke 16:31 ) if they will not believe this, they would not believe anything much?? Isaiah 66:22-23 'For the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall [all flesh] come to worship before Me, saieth the Lord.'

No Lord, I doubt that these guy's even reads this, for they says that they know all your Luke 12:47-48 Truth? and these Words of yours would be called just that of 'tossed out law' most likely? But yes, I understand that there just might be one sincere person who.. 'just does not know it all', who could see plainly that the Godheads 7th day Sabbath is the day that You have Set Aside and 'required' for Holy use, and that You Blessed the day, and it is for all of your 'saved' creation to worship You on. Be they even the Gentile one that Loves their Master, huh?

One more, Lord? Ok forum, how many of the Godheads created angels keep the Godhead's Words? (All of them!! 2 Tim. 3:16 & Matt. 4:4!!) Unless the false teachers can convince some that the angels are Jews??
In Rev. 22:8-10 we see John awestruck at the angels message! And John fell down before the feet of the angel. (you do remember where is was written for us not to do this, right? Exodus 20:4-5)

And in verse 9 of Rev. 22 the angel speaks to John saying: "Then he saith unto me, See that thou do it not: for I am [of thy brethren the prophets], and [of them which keep the sayings of this book]: worship God."

Notice that this Inspiration includes ALL of the Godheads creation! Compare Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 for the whole duty of MAN! All 10! James 2:8-12

--Elijah

 

[Who Says]

Hey!!!

I just discovered that the Bible tells us not to watch television!!!

Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.