The Man Child / The Very Elect

[whirlwind]

God's kingdom, the "male child", is therefore not "within" each of us, for Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, his enemies at Luke 17:20, 21. In no way could God's kingdom be "within" them, for these hated and opposed Jesus. Rather, Jesus as king-designate, was "in their midst". Many Bibles recognize that the Greek word entos means not only "within" (KJV, NKJV, ASV, NIV), but also "in your midst" (Montgomery New Testament, Darby's Bible, NASB, NWT) or "among you"(International Standard Version, NAB, NRSV, NLT). God's kingdom is an operational government that consists of 144,000 holy ones (Rev 7:4; 14:1) along with Jesus Christ, who serve as "kings and priests".(Rev 1:6; 5:9, 10)

That is an interesting distinction Nadab. And, I see what you are saying. He was speaking to the Pharisees. However, what of the following.....


John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; Whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (19-21) Yet a little while, and the world seeth Me no more; but ye see Me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in My Father, and ye in Me, and I in you. He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him."

So, what is your point ?

In your previous post you wrote......God's kingdom, the "male child", is therefore not "within" each of us, for Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, his enemies at Luke 17:20, 21. In quoting the John 14:17 Scriptures, where no Pharisees were present....they show that He is indeed in us.

 

[Cornelius]

In your previous post you wrote......God's kingdom, the "male child", is therefore not "within" each of us, for Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, his enemies at Luke 17:20, 21. In quoting the John 14:17 Scriptures, where no Pharisees were present....they show that He is indeed in us.

Amen

Christ in us, the hope of glory. The man child 'first fruits" are those who are the first to manifest this truth of Christ IN them

 

[nadab]

Hello Whirlwind,

God's kingdom is not "within" anyone, but rather is a working government. Isaiah 9:6 says that "unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder:"(King James Bible) God established a heavenly government, originating from his own universal sovereignty, for Daniel 2:44, 45 says that "in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure."(King James Bible)

The setting up of God's kingdom "in the days of these kings", the time period represented by the "feet and the toes...partly of molded clay....and partly of iron"(Dan 2:41-43), began in 1914, with global war breaking out. Jesus gave this feature, along with several others, saying to his disciples: "For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress."(Matt 24:7, 8)

This unique government is not "within" us, for Jesus was addressing the wicked Pharisees, who had asked him "when the kingdom of God was coming".(Luke 17:20) He then told them that "neither will people be saying, ' See here !' or, ' There ' ", looking for this "kingdom", for he then says: "For look ! the kingdom of God is in your midst". The future ruler of that heavenly government was standing right in front of them, in their "midst" or "among" them.

Jesus, at John 14:17 was not speaking about God's kingdom, but rather concerning "the spirit of the truth (God's holy spirit), which the world cannot receive" being with his disciples. God's holy spirit reveals Bible truths to only those who are genuine disciples of Jesus Christ, for at Daniel 12:9, the angel told Daniel: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of the end. Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand." That is why the "mysteries of the kingdom" remain a "mystery" to most.(Matt 13:11-15, King James Bible)

For genuine Christians, God's holy spirit "remains with (them) and is in (them)."(John 14:17)

 

[whirlwind]

Hello Whirlwind,

God's kingdom is not "within" anyone, but rather is a working government. Isaiah 9:6 says that "unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder:"(King James Bible) God established a heavenly government, originating from his own universal sovereignty, for Daniel 2:44, 45 says that "in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure."(King James Bible)

The setting up of God's kingdom "in the days of these kings", the time period represented by the "feet and the toes...partly of molded clay....and partly of iron"(Dan 2:41-43), began in 1914, with global war breaking out. Jesus gave this feature, along with several others, saying to his disciples: "For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress."(Matt 24:7, 8)

This unique government is not "within" us, for Jesus was addressing the wicked Pharisees, who had asked him "when the kingdom of God was coming".(Luke 17:20) He then told them that "neither will people be saying, ' See here !' or, ' There ' ", looking for this "kingdom", for he then says: "For look ! the kingdom of God is in your midst". The future ruler of that heavenly government was standing right in front of them, in their "midst" or "among" them.

Jesus, at John 14:17 was not speaking about God's kingdom, but rather concerning "the spirit of the truth (God's holy spirit), which the world cannot receive" being with his disciples. God's holy spirit reveals Bible truths to only those who are genuine disciples of Jesus Christ, for at Daniel 12:9, the angel told Daniel: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of the end. Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand." That is why the "mysteries of the kingdom" remain a "mystery" to most.(Matt 13:11-15, King James Bible)

For genuine Christians, God's holy spirit "remains with (them) and is in (them)."(John 14:17)

I understand what you are saying now. You are making a distinction in the government being within us , which you see as the kingdom of God, when it is the Holy Spirit in us. Although, it is those with the Holy Spirit that are of the kingdom of God.

You said....."The future ruler of that heavenly government was standing right in front of them, in their "midst" or "among" them," and I agree....He was.



Revelation 2:26-28 And he that overcometh, and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father. And I will give him the morning star.

Daniel 7:21-22 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


The "future ruler," Jesus, gives those that are in Him, the saints, the man child, the kingdom and they too rule. The "he" that rules with a rod of iron is the man child(ren). In other words, we are the kingdom that was "set up" long ago. We are the "government on His shoulder." So, perhaps we are saying the same thing...the kingdom isn't in us but....we are in the kingdom, we are the kingdom.

 

[whirlwind]

Part 4............



To continue with the subject of the man child. We see that they are the saints, the very elect, so they are those of the "first resurrection"…..


Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.


What did Jesus say to the man child? Two of His twelve disciples, James and his brother John, were types for the man child so this Book, penned by John, is rich with information from a man child to the man child of today…."He that hath an ear, let him hear."


John 14:27-28 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved Me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for My Father is greater than I.

15:4-5 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing.

16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come.

15:12-13 This is My commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.


He laid down His life literally for us. If we, as He has just commanded, are to love others as He loves us....are we also to literally "lay down (our) life for (our) friends?" Is this part of the "many things" He had to say but we weren't able to "bear them now?"

 

[whirlwind]

Part 5.............

The birth of the man child.


John 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.


In this thread, Guy Smith, quoted….

Isaiah 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who hath heard such a thing? Who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

There we see that the man child is not singular! The child is…children. How could she bring forth her children before the pain? They are the very elect…and He foreknew them. He knew them before they are/were born in their flesh bodies in this age.

Romans 8:29-30 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:

Jesus speaking to the man child, the very elect, those He foreknew.....


John 15:27-16:3 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with Me from the beginning. These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor Me.

Isaiah 66:5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at His Word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for My name’s sake, said, ‘Let the LORD be glorified:’ but He shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.


That is so fascinating to see! Notice that those killing, or casting out, children of God are brethren and they are in the synagogues (churches, Christian forums, any meeting place of Christians). They do this believing they "doeth God service" while praising God saying, "Let the LORD be glorified !" They are Christians but "they have not" truly "known the Father, nor Me." He "shall appear to" us but "they shall be ashamed."

This could have many different venues but one comes to mind as it happened to me and more than once. On other forums, while teaching on certain subjects using Scriptural documentation there were others that disagreed. Even though they were unable to refute it with His Word, or because they were unable to, they became angry and....Zap - banned! Usually it is because I teach against the rapture doctrine. I have never been banned because I was disruptive or angry...only because of what I taught and not because it is a "new gospel" but that it is new to them...it is written but not taught. So, essentially...."my brethren cast me out, killed me," all the while believing they were doing God a service and praising Him. But, we continue to bear witness and, as He foretold us of this....we shouldn't be offended.

 

[Cornelius]

Great posts WW

Did you have a look at John 16, where Jesus describes the birth of the man child?

Joh 16:19 Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me?
Joh 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
Joh 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world.
Joh 16:22 And ye therefore now have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one taketh away from you.

He calls the disciples (ALL real disciples ! ) a "woman" who has sorrow, because she is in travail, but when a "man" "child" is born, she forgets her sorrow . Jesus is talking about Rev 12 here.

 

[Osgiliath]

Do not forget, this process of transformation or "manifestation" you are speaking of is none other than "the sealing". Though it is a subject that is poorly understood by most, it should not be taken as "another" mysterious event that transpires within the believer. The 144,000 (elect, firstfruits) will be the first people to experience this transformation (sealing). This happens just prior to the Tribulation:

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

This "sealing process" (transformation, manifestation, etc.) occurs ONLY within the 144,000 PRIOR to the Tribulation. They are the first to receive the Seal of God. By the time the Seventh Trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15-19), God will have placed His seal upon everyone who lives by faith. (Revelation 10:7) DURING the Tribulation (in part, as a result of hearing the true Gospel taught by the 144,000), millions of other people will then pass through the test of faith and also experience this miraculous transformation (sealing). These are the numberless multitude (the rest of the harvest) that follow the the firstfruits (144,000).

Revelation 7:9 "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands"

The 144,000 are numbered; the harvest that follows can not be numbered.

Revelation 7:13 "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

 

[whirlwind]

Great posts WW

Did you have a look at John 16, where Jesus describes the birth of the man child?

Joh 16:19 Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me?
Joh 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
Joh 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world.
Joh 16:22 And ye therefore now have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one taketh away from you.

He calls the disciples (ALL real disciples ! ) a "woman" who has sorrow, because she is in travail, but when a "man" "child" is born, she forgets her sorrow . Jesus is talking about Rev 12 here.

I will soon post part 6 in which I have quoted....John 16:21 I had a new understanding opened to me with that very verse. Really look at the wording in.....when she is delivered of the child.

Thank you again for participating in this thread. I'm really going to look for your wisdom with the question these Scriptures are leading to.

 

[whirlwind]

Do not forget, this process of transformation or "manifestation" you are speaking of is none other than "the sealing". Though it is a subject that is poorly understood by most, it should not be taken as "another" mysterious event that transpires within the believer. The 144,000 (elect, firstfruits) will be the first people to experience this transformation (sealing). This happens just prior to the Tribulation:

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

This "sealing process" (transformation, manifestation, etc.) occurs ONLY within the 144,000 PRIOR to the Tribulation. They are the first to receive the Seal of God. By the time the Seventh Trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15-19), God will have placed His seal upon everyone who lives by faith. (Revelation 10:7) DURING the Tribulation (in part, as a result of hearing the true Gospel taught by the 144,000), millions of other people will then pass through the test of faith and also experience this miraculous transformation (sealing). These are the numberless multitude (the rest of the harvest) that follow the the firstfruits (144,000).

Revelation 7:9 "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands"

The 144,000 are numbered; the harvest that follows can not be numbered.

Revelation 7:13 "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Although I see the man child and the 144,000 directly connected....I believe the sealing of the 144,000 happens when the man child allows the Holy Spirit to testify through them. That testimony is what seals them before the end can come.

 

[whirlwind]

Part 6.............


In the previous post we saw that in the following Scriptures the woman (Israel/the church) brought forth the man child before she travailed but it is during "her hour" of travail that he/they are delivered. What is that "hour?"

Isaiah 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who hath heard such a thing? Who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

John 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

:o I just noticed.....she doesn't deliver the child...."she is delivered of the child." It is the child, the man child, that delivers her and then....there is joy! :yes This delivery of the church by the testimony of the man child will be discussed below.


Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.â€Â


We are those that are with Him. Many are called.....Few are chosen.....we are faithful (unto death)

Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

The elect are kept from the "hour of temptation" when all on the earth will be tempted. How? Because we, knowing His Word, will not be tempted! The hour is the time of the great tribulation of Satan:


Mark 13:19-20 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the LORD had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.


The days of the great tribulation have been shortened (written twice as our second witness just as the following verses also bear witness twice to the time it was shortened).


Revelation 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

Is that a literal five months? I don't know. Is the "hour of temptation," which isn't a literal hour the literal five months? I don't know. We are not to know the day or the hour. Is that hour of temptation, the five months during which some of the elect will have ten days of tribulation?

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by whirlwind

Although I see the man child and the 144,000 directly connected....I believe the sealing of the 144,000 happens when the man child allows the Holy Spirit to testify through them. That testimony is what seals them before the end can come.

Not sure I agree with that WW. I think you have it backwards. The Holy Spirit speaks through them BECAUSE they have been sealed. Also, check out the timing in Revelation 7:1-4:

The phrase, "holding back the four winds of Earth" is a powerful word-picture of DELAYED global destruction and upheaval.

The release of the four winds in Revelation 7 (simultaneously blowing from the north, east, west and south) implies deadly forces that will bring "global" destruction and chaos (i.e. the Seven Trumpet judgments). At this very moment, these four angels are waiting to act.... held back by a divine command... soon to impose destruction ONCE the 144,000 are sealed.

The 144,000 must be sealed BEFORE this occurs. Once they are sealed, they are on the go right out of the gate, for 1,260 days. There will be no "sporadic" speaking out against the false messiah. They begin their testimony of bringing forth the Eternal Gospel immediately after they are sealed BEFORE the Tribulation starts, and go non-stop until they are either martyred or the 1,260 days have expired.

Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world
as a testimony to all nations, and THEN the end will come."

As for the "pre-destination" you mentioned; the 144,000 will not be self-appointed (do not volunteer for the job). If it were not for Jesus manifesting Himself in them, and "transforming" them to do what He wants done, they would not choose the job nor COULD THEY get the job done. After 1,260 days, the harvest resulting from the work of the 144,000 will be a numberless multitude that comes from every nation, kindred, tongue and people (the rest of the harvest that follows the firstfruits).

 

[whirlwind]

Originally posted by whirlwind

Although I see the man child and the 144,000 directly connected....I believe the sealing of the 144,000 happens when the man child allows the Holy Spirit to testify through them. That testimony is what seals them before the end can come.

Not sure I agree with that WW. I think you have it backwards. The Holy Spirit speaks through them BECAUSE they have been sealed. Also, check out the timing in Revelation 7:1-4:

The phrase, "holding back the four winds of Earth" is a powerful word-picture of DELAYED global destruction and upheaval.

The release of the four winds in Revelation 7 (simultaneously blowing from the north, east, west and south) implies deadly forces that will bring "global" destruction and chaos (i.e. the Seven Trumpet judgments). At this very moment, these four angels are waiting to act.... held back by a divine command... soon to impose destruction ONCE the 144,000 are sealed.

The 144,000 must be sealed BEFORE this occurs. Once they are sealed, they are on the go right out of the gate, for 1,260 days. There will be no "sporadic" speaking out against the false messiah. They begin their testimony of bringing forth the Eternal Gospel immediately after they are sealed BEFORE the Tribulation starts, and go non-stop until they are either martyred or the 1,260 days have expired.

Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world
as a testimony to all nations, and THEN the end will come."

I see why we aren't on the same page. :yes


You see the tribulation as when Jesus comes, when the four angels are loosed. That is when the wrath of God is spilled and it follows the tribulation of Satan. They are two separate events.

Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

As for the "pre-destination" you mentioned; the 144,000 will not be self-appointed (do not volunteer for the job). If it were not for Jesus manifesting Himself in them, and "transforming" them to do what He wants done, they would not choose the job nor COULD THEY get the job done. After 1,260 days, the harvest resulting from the work of the 144,000 will be a numberless multitude that comes from every nation, kindred, tongue and people (the rest of the harvest that follows the firstfruits).

It is my belief (and it is belief only) that we are now in the three and one half years of our time in the wilderness. The Holy Spirit is opening revelations to the man child now and they in turn are teaching the woman. Soon Satan's great tribulation will begin...the hour of temptation that directly preceeds the wrath of God. The tribulation is a time of testing. The man child will be delivered for a testimony (my next post in this series deals with that) and that testimony of the Holy Spirit will seal the 144,000. Those that hear will not be harmed. Those that don't will taste the wrath of God.


Please consider that Osgiliath, even though it is different than your understanding now. I'll try to come up with other Scriptures that point to the separation in the Tribulation and the wrath. Thank you for your participation and input....it is appreciated. :yes

 

[Cornelius]

It is my belief (and it is belief only) that we are now in the three and one half years of our time in the wilderness.

Something to consider : The timing of the start of the Tribulation . The tribulation starts after the manifestation of the man child ministry. Notice that the man child is born, then the dragon happens, then the church flees into the "desert" to be taught the Word again. THEN the tribulation starts

Rev 12:5 And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Notice she is nourished as soon as the first half of the tribulation starts.

Something else: We know that we can look at the time of Jesus to get a clue of the timing as well. At the birth of the Man Child Jesus, we see that there was a World Census . So we can look for one now as well.

The website of the 2010 World Population and Housing Census Programme facilitates the international exchange and sharing of knowledge and information on census taking, as well as provision of guidance to countries, and monitoring progress on the implementation of the Programme.

http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/ ... efault.htm

At the time of the birth of Jesus , the "dragon" of His day, went after him too:Mat 2:7 Then Herod privily called the Wise-men, and learned of them exactly what time the star appeared.
Mat 2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search out exactly concerning the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word, that I also may come and worship him.

and the "woman" fled into the desert:

Mat 2:14 And he arose and took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt;

Ecc 1:9 That which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

God has placed the story of the man child everywhere to make sure we "get it"

 

[whirlwind]

It is my belief (and it is belief only) that we are now in the three and one half years of our time in the wilderness.

Something to consider : The timing of the start of the Tribulation . The tribulation starts after the manifestation of the man child ministry. Notice that the man child is born, then the dragon happens, then the church flees into the "desert" to be taught the Word again. THEN the tribulation starts

Rev 12:5 And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Notice she is nourished as soon as the first half of the tribulation starts.

Consider this possibility too C....."her child was caught up unto God, and unto His throne," when he became the man child, when Christ came to abide in him....spiritually caught up, not yet literally. The woman, who is of those called, is in the "place prepared of God" upon being called. That is her wilderness...wherever she is during that period of time. There she is taught, nourished by both the man child and by the tail of the dragon. Remember who she is "kept from" during that time....It is from the "face of the serpent," not the tail of the dragon. That tail will be teaching and looking oh-so-holy. It is her hour of temptation.

Hebrews 3:7-11 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, "To day if ye will hear His voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted Me, proved Me, and saw My works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said,They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known My ways. So I sware in My wrath, They shall not enter into My rest.")

Something else: We know that we can look at the time of Jesus to get a clue of the timing as well. At the birth of the Man Child Jesus, we see that there was a World Census . So we can look for one now as well.
[quote:1eghzwd9]
The website of the 2010 World Population and Housing Census Programme facilitates the international exchange and sharing of knowledge and information on census taking, as well as provision of guidance to countries, and monitoring progress on the implementation of the Programme.

http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/ ... efault.htm

At the time of the birth of Jesus , the "dragon" of His day, went after him too:Mat 2:7 Then Herod privily called the Wise-men, and learned of them exactly what time the star appeared.
Mat 2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search out exactly concerning the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word, that I also may come and worship him.

and the "woman" fled into the desert:

Mat 2:14 And he arose and took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt;

Ecc 1:9 That which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

God has placed the story of the man child everywhere to make sure we "get it" [/quote:1eghzwd9]


:shocked! The story IS everywhere. I will look harder into "the time of Jesus" for clues on this as well as tribulation, wilderness, etc. :yes

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Cornelius
Something to consider : The timing of the start of the Tribulation . The tribulation starts after the manifestation of the man child ministry. Notice that the man child is born, then the dragon happens, then the church flees into the "desert" to be taught the Word again. THEN the tribulation starts

Precisely. The 144,000 are sealed, THEN the tribulation begins.

"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, UNTIL we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." (Revelation 7:3)

Originally posted by whirlwind
It is my belief (and it is belief only) that we are now in the three and one half years of our time in the wilderness.

Do you believe Christ's intercession on behalf of the world has ended at Heaven’s Altar of Incense yet?

"And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar , and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound." (Revelation 8:5,6)

I don't think this will be missed by anyone. And when that First Trumpet sounds, despite what you may have heard; you certainly will not miss that when it occurs (nor will ANYONE else) :D. The 42 month (1,260) day Tribulation begins with the First Trumpet, which certainly has NOT occurred yet (read it and see why :D ). The censer hasn't been cast into the Earth yet, which happens BEFORE the First Trumpet. Don't forget, we’re talking about divine judgments that consummate the end of this world age, not merely political and religious shake-ups among man.


The who scenario is laid out plain and simple:

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. (Daniel 12:11,12)


*Revelation 8:5,6 - Censer cast to Earth (daily sacrifice taken away - Daniel 12:11,12). Jesus returns 1,335 days from this point :amen (Daniel 12:12).

*1,260 days (3 ½ years) for Two Witnesses (Revelation 11:3)

*1,260 days (3 ½ years) until Saints defeated (Daniel 12:7)

*42 Months (3 ½ years) Persecution (Revelation 11:2, 13:5)

*1,290 days (3 ½ years plus 30 days) from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away (censer cast to Earth) until Abomination of Desolation is "set up" (Daniel 12:11)

 

[whirlwind]

I'll have to put off studying your post until the morning....I'm way to tired now to give it the attention it deserves. My head feels like it's filled with oatmeal. :crazy :gah :yes

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by whirlwind
I'll have to put off studying your post until the morning....I'm way to tired now to give it the attention it deserves. My head feels like it's filled with oatmeal.

OK. BTW, this thread rocks!

 

[Cornelius]

Precisely. The 144,000 are sealed, THEN the tribulation begins.

I tend to agree with you.

WW, the "caught up to the throne" has not happened yet. I understand that it is spiritual, but we will know when this happens. There will be a change in the anointing.The "caught up to the throne" is the same as "

Hos 6:3 And let us know, let us follow on to know Jehovah: his going forth is sure as the morning; and he will come unto us as the rain, as the latter rain that watereth the earth.

Sure as the morning: 2Pe 1:19 And we have the word of prophecy made more sure; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day-star arise in your hearts:

The coming of the Lord IN us, is likened to the rising of the sun/Son. "Day-star" is also an ancient word for "sun". So as we receive the Word, we are receiving the Son and He is rising in our hearts, "until the day dawn".

When does the caught up to the throne happens? A: When His righteousness comes to perfection in the first fruits.That would be the "perfect day" when the sun /Son has risen to its highest point, where the "shadows" are under out feet !

Pro 4:18 But the path of the righteous is as the dawning light, That shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

Actually the Word rocks ! :P

 

[Cornelius]

Interesting fact: As the sun/Son is rising in the hearts of the saints, so the darkness descends upon the earth.

Mat 2:14 And he arose and took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt;

Exo 11:4 And Moses said, Thus saith Jehovah, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt:

Notice that the passover of the angel of death happened about midnight. Our passover will also happen at midnight.

Mat 25:6 But at midnight there is a cry, Behold, the bridegroom! Come ye forth to meet him.

Psa 119:62 At midnight I will rise to give thanks unto thee Because of thy righteous ordinances.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief:
1Th 5:5 for ye are all sons of light, and sons of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness;
1Th 5:6 so then let us not sleep, as do the rest, but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night: and they that are drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, since we are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.