The Man Child / The Very Elect

[whirlwind]

Originally posted by Cornelius
Something to consider : The timing of the start of the Tribulation . The tribulation starts after the manifestation of the man child ministry. Notice that the man child is born, then the dragon happens, then the church flees into the "desert" to be taught the Word again. THEN the tribulation starts

Precisely. The 144,000 are sealed, THEN the tribulation begins.

"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, UNTIL we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." (Revelation 7:3)

As per C....1. Man child is born...(and must have time to mature). 2. Then the dragon 3. The church flees. 4. Then the tribulation. I agree. The difference here is that you see the tribulation beginning AFTER the sealing. I see Scripture telling us that the 144,000 are sealed DURING the tribulation of Satan. After that begins the wrath of God which IS "hurting the earth, sea and trees." All are tested during the tribulation and those that fail will face His wrath....two different events.

I agree that the man child will be, must be, manifested before the great tribulation begins....but the great tribulation is not all of the [3 1/2] years of our time in the wilderness. The wilderness time is when....

• * Revelation 12:14-15 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

The "times and half a time" is the great tribulation, not the first "time." The great tribulation is the last part of her wilderness stay...not all of it. During the wilderness time she must decide between the Word of God and the flood of lies out of the mouth of the serpent. Those lies are delivered by the "tail of the dragon," false teachers.

Revelation 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

The "half an hour" is the same as "half a time," which is half of the "hour of temptation," which is the great tribulation. The woman enters the wilderness at the beginning of "a time," the beginning of the three and one half years during which she is taught. The man child teaches so they have been "manifested" or are being manifested, before that time. Will the manifestation be a process of absorbing the latter rain or will it be a torrent of rain? I don't know. At present I see it as the revealing of His Word as we study and that is happening now. I keep going back to....

• * Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

No man will know...not even the man child. If the latter rain was a torrent then...they would know but as it "waters the earth" then I believe it is a gradual process giving the earth (people) time to absorb it's life giving properties.

The woman is in the wilderness (the 3 1/2 years is underway) and then....

• * Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Then...the great tribulation begins. This is when the second beast arrives to "make war with the remant of her seed," the man child...those that have and are giving the testimony of Jesus.

• * Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

That is the time of the great tribulation.....

• * Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

That is when the man child is delivered for his testimony...when the Holy Spirit speaks through them. And then, at the end of that time, after the testing.....

• * Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Then....the wrath of God is spilled.

[quote:22rg7u1c]Originally posted by whirlwind
It is my belief (and it is belief only) that we are now in the three and one half years of our time in the wilderness.

Do you believe Christ's intercession on behalf of the world has ended at Heaven’s Altar of Incense yet?

"And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar , and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound." (Revelation 8:5,6)

I don't think this will be missed by anyone. And when that First Trumpet sounds, despite what you may have heard; you certainly will not miss that when it occurs (nor will ANYONE else) :D. The 42 month (1,260) day Tribulation begins with the First Trumpet, which certainly has NOT occurred yet (read it and see why :D ). The censer hasn't been cast into the Earth yet, which happens BEFORE the First Trumpet. Don't forget, we’re talking about divine judgments that consummate the end of this world age, not merely political and religious shake-ups among man.

[/quote:22rg7u1c]


That event is the WRATH of God....not the tribulation. It happens after the tribulation.

The who scenario is laid out plain and simple:

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. (Daniel 12:11,12)


*Revelation 8:5,6 - Censer cast to Earth (daily sacrifice taken away - Daniel 12:11,12). Jesus returns 1,335 days from this point :amen (Daniel 12:12).

*1,260 days (3 ½ years) for Two Witnesses (Revelation 11:3)

*1,260 days (3 ½ years) until Saints defeated (Daniel 12:7)

*42 Months (3 ½ years) Persecution (Revelation 11:2, 13:5)

*1,290 days (3 ½ years plus 30 days) from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away (censer cast to Earth) until Abomination of Desolation is "set up" (Daniel 12:11)

[/quote]

 

[whirlwind]

Precisely. The 144,000 are sealed, THEN the tribulation begins.

I tend to agree with you.

The man child is manifested and their testimony, actually the testimony of the Holy Spirit through them, is what causes the 144,000 to be sealed. That goes on during the tribulation. It isn't the 144,000 that are testifying but they are those that must be sealed before the end, before the wrath.

WW, the "caught up to the throne" has not happened yet. I understand that it is spiritual, but we will know when this happens. There will be a change in the anointing.The "caught up to the throne" is the same as "

Hos 6:3 And let us know, let us follow on to know Jehovah: his going forth is sure as the morning; and he will come unto us as the rain, as the latter rain that watereth the earth.

I'm still trying to understand this but presently I see the rain as an ongoing procedure...as rain waters the earth. In that verse it begins in the morning and yet the day goes on to "it's highest point," the perfect day.

Sure as the morning: 2Pe 1:19 And we have the word of prophecy made more sure; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day-star arise in your hearts:

The coming of the Lord IN us, is likened to the rising of the sun/Son. "Day-star" is also an ancient word for "sun". So as we receive the Word, we are receiving the Son and He is rising in our hearts, "until the day dawn".

When does the caught up to the throne happens? A: When His righteousness comes to perfection in the first fruits.That would be the "perfect day" when the sun /Son has risen to its highest point, where the "shadows" are under out feet !

Pro 4:18 But the path of the righteous is as the dawning light, That shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

Actually the Word rocks ! :P

 

[Cornelius]

Well, we are in a time now, where understanding is opening up.
The latter rain has not started yet. The early rain, happened in the upper room. It was not, and then it was ! Jesus told them to WAIT for it. We too are waiting for it. We are still operating in the early rain anointing, although the strength of it is very weak at this moment. We desperately need the latter rain anointing. The latter rain is actually the day when Christ manifests Himself in some of His body (not happened yet)

On that day : the latter rain arrives, the "caught up to the throne" happens, the man child manifests, Christ manifests in His people, 144000 are sealed, the overcomers take their place on the Throne .....all these things are the same thing, but this event has many facets, so God describes it over and over in different ways. Our type is the disciples in the upper room. It was an event! There was a sound like rushing wind, the house shook, there were tongues of fire. A huge event ! A bigger one is about to happen and the Harlot church will persecute it.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by whirlwind

That event is the WRATH of God....not the tribulation. It happens after the tribulation.

The Tribulation consists of two segments of time. The Seven Trumpets will last 1,260 days. The Seven Vials will follow the Seven Trumpets. During the Seven Vials, God's wrath will be poured out upon all who receive the mark of the beast. When the seven last plagues (vials) are completed, God's wrath will end:

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues – last, because with them God’s wrath is completed." (Revelation 15:1)

The timing given in Daniel locks everything in, to where there is no wiggle room.

"And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and will be successful until the time of wrath is completed: for that that is determined shall be done." (Daniel 11:35,36)

Look at the timing of this verse. The king referred to in this verse is the king who "is successful until the time of wrath is completed . . ." When does the time of wrath occur? In Daniel 8 the horn power from the north (the stern-faced king) will appear during the appointed time of the end, which is a time of wrath.

"He [Gabriel] said: ‘I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.’ " (Daniel 8:19)

What exactly is the "time of God's Wrath? The Seven Vials. Remember that God's Wrath is not directed towards anyone but the wicked (Revelation 14:9,10 - Revelation 16). The Seven Last Plagues (Seven Vials - or Third Woe) begin after the Seventh Trumpet sounds. It's important to notice that the overcomers (firstfruits, elect) sing the Song of Moses before the Seven Vials are poured out. "Do the elect sing the Song of Moses BEFORE the Seventh Trumpet sounds?" No!

Revelation 15:1-8

1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Notice in verse 2 above that this is BEFORE the Seven Vials are poured out.....BUT.....these in Heaven "HAD GOTTEN" the victory over the beast, his image, and his mark.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."

Notice they sing the Song of Moses BEFORE the Seven Vials are poured out. The Seven Last Plagues (Vials, God's Wrath) are prepared to be poured out AFTER the firstfruits (elect) sing the Song of Moses (i.e. after the Seventh Trumpet sounds).

Revelation 14:3 "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

The 144,000 (firstfruits/elect) are the only ones who could learn the Song.

The Tribulation consists of the Seven Trumpets AND the Seven Vials (the Seven Seals contain both - including a time before the Tribulation, and after.... right up until the end of the Millennium). God's Wrath (as you say) is specifically associated with the Seven Vials, and is ONLY directed at the wicked (not the saints..... many of the numberless multitude are still present on Earth). The Seven Trumpets are directed at the whole world, because these judgments are "redemptive judgments", and many of the numberless multitude will be saved because of these judgments. However, the Tribulation consists of BOTH the Trumpet judgments AND the Vial judgments (Vials = God's Wrath). Neither of these has begun yet. In fact The Censer has not been cast to Earth yet (which happens right before the Tribulation begins). Trust me, the world will be turned upside down when this happens. It will not be subtle.

 

[Cornelius]

Good post.

The mention of the millennium does not make Scriptural sense to me. I see no evidence of the vials going on until the end of the millennium. (unless I am reading you wrong ) I do agree that they are God's wrath and that at the seventh and last trumpet, we will see the first resurrection/rapture. The saints will not be here for God's wrath.

So in simple language: We will have a seven year tribulation and then after that, God pours out His wrath on the earth, while the saints (dead and alive) will be removed (twinkling of an eye change and resurrection)

God places the church in confrontation with the whole world. The "man child" ministry leads the church during this time. The Bride becomes spotless.

Some of the world repent, some do not. The time of the Gentiles comes to a close somewhere during this period as well. No more grace for salvation is given. Then God's wrath comes and destroys the earth (saints gone by now)

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally postedby Cornelius
The mention of the millennium does not make Scriptural sense to me. I see no evidence of the vials going on until the end of the millennium. (unless I am reading you wrong )

No, not THE VIALS, THE SEALS. The Seals are Seven campaigns that reveal Jesus Christ, and the Seals cover a time period that begins BEFORE the Tribulation; and then ends(period of The Seals) at the END of the Millennium. The VIALS are still part of the Tribulation, and end when Jesus returns at the end of the 1,335 days (Daniel 12). The Seventh "Seal" is opened at the end of the Millennium. The Seventh Seal HAS to be opened AFTER Christ returns (Sixth Seal), and since prophecy is still being fulfilled in the Millennium (Satan released a short season to deceive the nations), and the Seals encompass all, I believe the end of the Millennium (at the Great White Throne Judgement) is when the Seventh Seal is broken, and "The Book" that was sealed with the Seven Seals is finally opened. Everyone focuses on the seals of the Book, but they never stop to think about what Book it is that is sealed in the first place. The book itself is far more important than what is sealing the Book. :D

 

[Cornelius]

Thanks for answering. I find your posts very well thought through Its a bit late here , so I am off to bed.

By the way, I see you like Tolkien too. I was born in the same city as him, in South Africa. (Bloemfontein)

 

[whirlwind]

Well, we are in a time now, where understanding is opening up.
The latter rain has not started yet. The early rain, happened in the upper room. It was not, and then it was ! Jesus told them to WAIT for it. We too are waiting for it. We are still operating in the early rain anointing, although the strength of it is very weak at this moment. We desperately need the latter rain anointing. The latter rain is actually the day when Christ manifests Himself in some of His body (not happened yet)

On that day : the latter rain arrives, the "caught up to the throne" happens, the man child manifests, Christ manifests in His people, 144000 are sealed, the overcomers take their place on the Throne .....all these things are the same thing, but this event has many facets, so God describes it over and over in different ways. Our type is the disciples in the upper room. It was an event! There was a sound like rushing wind, the house shook, there were tongues of fire. A huge event ! A bigger one is about to happen and the Harlot church will persecute it.

I'm trying to understand but I see these as different events....

• * Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for He hath given you the former rain moderately, and He will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

The later rain is in the first month. The first month of what? Of the 3 1/2 years or first month of the five months of the tribulation? I don't see how it can be the same event as the "upper room" event, if that is what is described below....

• * 2:28-29 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out My spirit.

The pouring out of His spirit is after the latter rain but before the "great and terrible day of the Lord."

• * 2:30-32 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Consider the timing....

• * Revelation 12:3-4 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
  
  12:5-6 And she brought forth a MAN CHILD, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
  
  Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

This scarlet beast is...the red dragon with the same seven heads and ten horns... [Revelation 12:3 above] This woman sits on the scarlet beast/red dragon...she is in the wilderness too! This woman is...

• * Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. (18) And the woman which thou sawest is that GREAT CITY, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

Why is she in the wilderness? She, “the mother of harlots and abominations,†is false religion, the “great city†Babylon, which means confusion. That false religion that rides the red beast – Satan, trying to keep God’s children from cutting through it’s confusion so they see and hear the truth of God’s Words. That is why she too is in the wilderness.

• * Revelation 11:3-4 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks, standing before the God of the earth.

They prophesy (teach) the same amount of time that Israel/the church will be in the wilderness. What is the "power" God gives so they are able to teach? Is it the power/wisdom/knowledge from the latter rain?

• * Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Is that not the man child teaching the church during the wilderness time? If it is then didn't they receive the latter rain during the first month? Isn't the latter rain the deeper truths that the Holy Spirit reveals to them?

• * Ezekiel 20:35-38 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God. And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against Me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

He will "plead with you face to face!" How? It is before the 2nd Advent so won't this be when He is manifested in the man child? If He is in them and they in Him then....He will plead face to face. If that is the correct answer then the events of the 3 1/2 years in the wilderness are....
1. Latter rain falls
2. He manifest in the man child
3. The man child teaches the church in the wilderness (as do the false teachers)
4. The last five months of this time is Satan's hour. It is the great tribulation and then the man child will be delivered for a testimony. the Holy Spirit will speak through them and...I believe this is when we will experience the event....the "pouring out of His Spirit" written of in Joel.

So....will all of Israel be saved? No, not all. Remember the woman that rides the red dragon is in the wilderness too. Remember also the example given of the Israelites in the wilderness. Did all of them cross to the promised land? We will be called to the wilderness, we will be taught but to which teacher will we listen?


Hebrews 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

 

[whirlwind]

Originally posted by whirlwind

That event is the WRATH of God....not the tribulation. It happens after the tribulation.

The Tribulation consists of two segments of time. The Seven Trumpets will last 1,260 days. The Seven Vials will follow the Seven Trumpets. During the Seven Vials, God's wrath will be poured out upon all who receive the mark of the beast. When the seven last plagues (vials) are completed, God's wrath will end:

The tribulation is Satan's time. The wrath is that of God. They are not the same event. When the vials are poured, all at one time...that is the wrath of God and then...millennium. When the sixth trumpet sounds it is the tribulation. When the seventh trumpet sounds....it is the arrival of Jesus. Presently, we are in the time of the fifth trumpet.

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues – last, because with them God’s wrath is completed." (Revelation 15:1)

The timing given in Daniel locks everything in, to where there is no wiggle room.

"And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and will be successful until the time of wrath is completed: for that that is determined shall be done." (Daniel 11:35,36)

Look at the timing of this verse. The king referred to in this verse is the king who "is successful until the time of wrath is completed . . ." When does the time of wrath occur? In Daniel 8 the horn power from the north (the stern-faced king) will appear during the appointed time of the end, which is a time of wrath.

"He [Gabriel] said: ‘I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.’ " (Daniel 8:19)

That isn't the time of wrath....KJV Daniel 8:19 And he said, 'Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

The last end of the indignation is....the end of the tribulation of Satan....not the wrath of God.

What exactly is the "time of God's Wrath? The Seven Vials. Remember that God's Wrath is not directed towards anyone but the wicked (Revelation 14:9,10 - Revelation 16). The Seven Last Plagues (Seven Vials - or Third Woe) begin after the Seventh Trumpet sounds. It's important to notice that the overcomers (firstfruits, elect) sing the Song of Moses before the Seven Vials are poured out. "Do the elect sing the Song of Moses BEFORE the Seventh Trumpet sounds?" No!

I agree. The vials are poured and that is the wrath. God's children do not experience that wrath.

Revelation 15:1-8

1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Notice in verse 2 above that this is BEFORE the Seven Vials are poured out.....BUT.....these in Heaven "HAD GOTTEN" the victory over the beast, his image, and his mark.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."

Notice they sing the Song of Moses BEFORE the Seven Vials are poured out. The Seven Last Plagues (Vials, God's Wrath) are prepared to be poured out AFTER the firstfruits (elect) sing the Song of Moses (i.e. after the Seventh Trumpet sounds).

Revelation 14:3 "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

The 144,000 (firstfruits/elect) are the only ones who could learn the Song.

The Tribulation consists of the Seven Trumpets AND the Seven Vials (the Seven Seals contain both - including a time before the Tribulation, and after.... right up until the end of the Millennium).

The tribulation does consist of the trumpets. The wrath is when the vials are poured. The seals are written to tell us what will happen. All of it is OVER before the millennium begins.

God's Wrath (as you say) is specifically associated with the Seven Vials, and is ONLY directed at the wicked (not the saints..... many of the numberless multitude are still present on Earth). The Seven Trumpets are directed at the whole world, because these judgments are "redemptive judgments", and many of the numberless multitude will be saved because of these judgments. However, the Tribulation consists of BOTH the Trumpet judgments AND the Vial judgments (Vials = God's Wrath). Neither of these has begun yet. In fact The Censer has not been cast to Earth yet (which happens right before the Tribulation begins). Trust me, the world will be turned upside down when this happens. It will not be subtle.

All seven trumpets will be completed and that ends the tribulation. Then the wrath begins...the spilling of all the vials.

We are almost in agreement...we just don't see eye to eye on the separation of the tribulation and the wrath. They are two different events. One is of Satan. One is of Jesus.

 

[Cornelius]

Yes the Tribulation and the Wrath are two separate events. I think we all actually agree on this.

When we look at the Tribulation in types and shadows, we see that its always God who sends His people into tribulation. He empowers a "beast kingdom" to take His people captive. Israel (as a type for the church) has always been captured by a beast kingdom , whenever they were out of step with God.

The church now is out of step and so God has to allow us to be taken over by "Babylon", as we see in Revelation. This is the last one, so this time, its also the biggest one, because this time, it involves the whole earth. God now dies not use just one little kingdom to capture a small group of people in the Middle East, but this time, He is using the whole "Babylon" against His worldwide church.

 

[Cornelius]

Here is another man child type and shadow:

Est 10:1 And the king Ahasuerus laid a tribute upon the land, and upon the isles of the sea.
Est 10:2 And all the acts of his power and of his might, and the full account of the greatness of Mordecai, whereunto the king advanced him, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Media and Persia?
Est 10:3 For Mordecai the Jew was next unto king Ahasuerus, and great among the Jews, and accepted of the multitude of his brethren, seeking the good of his people, and speaking peace to all his seed.

Ahasuerus is a type for God. Esther a type for the Bride and Vashti a type of the apostate church.(Vashti has her own party in the "Kings House" (Kingdom) Est 1:9 Also Vashti the queen made a feast for the women (churches) in the royal house (Kingdom of God)which belonged to king Ahasuerus.

Here is the timing clue:

Est 1:3 in the third year of his reign, he made a feast (We are now in the morning of the third day after Jesus and the wedding feast is about to happen)

Here is the New Testament "third day wedding feast"

Joh 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee;

Here is another time clue. We are now also in the morning of the seventh day after Adam:


Est 1:10 On the seventh day, when the heart of the king was merry with wine,(The life is in the blood and the wine is Blood) he commanded Mehuman, Biztha, Harbona, Bigtha, and Abagtha, Zethar, and Carcas, the seven chamberlains that ministered in the presence of Ahasuerus the king,( Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceed lightnings and voices and thunders. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God; )
Est 1:11 to bring Vashti the queen before the king with the crown royal, to show the peoples and the princes her beauty; for she was fair to look on.

Sorry I am going off topic a bit, but its all so good

 

[Cornelius]

* Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


Is that not the man child teaching the church during the wilderness time? If it is then didn't they receive the latter rain during the first month? Isn't the latter rain the deeper truths that the Holy Spirit reveals to them?

You forget that the First Fruit man child is just that : FIRST fruits. So at this time they have had the latter rain already . Its just like in the time of Jesus. He first received the Holy Spirit , then he taught the "woman" (disciples) (How long did He teach them ) and then they too received the early rain (after they were nourished in their wilderness )

Jesus ministered three and a half years This is the time He nourished the woman in His day.

http://www.gotquestions.org/length-Jesus-ministry.html

Rev 12:14 And there were given to the woman the two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness unto her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, (Three and a half years) from the face of the serpent.

Notice that the disciples were being taught how to follow God according to His Word. They were being taught how to walk "outside the camp" of their religion that they grew up in.God will take His elect out of the harlot church before the end comes.Just remember that some of these pictures overlap with others in Revelation.

For instance: You and I have come out of Egypt when we started this walk of salvation, but there is still much of Egypt in us too. That makes us a bit of a mixture and not just pure "this" or "that". God must take Egypt out of His church and that is why she must be nourished for three and a half years.

Look, here is the type and shadow for what I am saying. A "mixed multitude" left Egypt (Israel and Egyptians) Exo 12:37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, besides children.
Exo 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

But the Egyptians all died in the desert (tribulation)

The same with us. We "get saved" but now God must get the world out of us. He uses tribulation to do that. (Jesus went into the desert to be tested, 40 days (number of testing) ) So in a way the man child is teaching the harlot church in the desert, but not THE Harlot. No, they are cleaning the Bride of all spots and blemishes. During this time all false teachers will leave the Bride.She will be spotless.

These will leave: 2Pe 2:12 But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,
2Pe 2:13 suffering wrong as the hire of wrong-doing; men that count it pleasure to revel in the day-time, spots and blemishes, revelling in their deceivings while they feast with you;

 

[Cornelius]

Isn't the latter rain the deeper truths that the Holy Spirit reveals to them?

N0 , its the 100 fold manifestation of Christ in some people. Mat 13:8 and others fell upon the good ground, and yielded fruit(Some will yield this fruit FIRST ), some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.


They will see Him as He (the Word) is and will be exactly like Him.1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.

We will walk as He walked.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by whirlwind
The seals are written to tell us what will happen.

??? I'm not following you here. Are you saying The Seals are simply a foreknowledge of the events that occur in the Tribulation, but not the events themselves? If that is what you are suggesting (maybe you are not), that is incorrect, and may be the reason you are not understanding the timing of the Tribulation properly. The breaking of the Seven Seals produces "The revelation of Jesus Christ". A "new aspect of Jesus" is revealed when each seal is broken.

What would make you think the Seals were simply the template of what occurs later? Is it simply because the Sixth Seal is located in Revelation 6, but the Seventh Seal is located in Revelation 8:1? Revelation 7 is between Revelation 6 and 8. The first eight verses in Revelation 7 concern the 144,000. Are they sealed AFTER Christ returns? No! Actually, a new prophecy begins because the chronological order given in Revelation 6 is broken. The 144,000 are NOT sealed AFTER Christ returns.

The Seventh Seal (Revelation 8:1), has to happen AFTER Christ returns because chronological order is not broken. Check it out:

Revelation 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. . . .

Revelation 7:13 Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"

Revelation 7:14 I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. . . .

Revelation 7:15 Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. . . .

Revelation 7:16 Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. . . .

Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

Revelation 8:1 When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

Since the Sixth Seal is the Second Coming, the Seventh Seal has to occur AFTER Christ returns, in fact, it has to occur AFTER the numberless multitude assemble around the throne. Remember, the Seventh Seal is opened after the saints come out of the Tribulation and are seen in Heaven standing around the throne. The Seventh Seal is opened in verse 8:1. The location of verse 8:1 forces the Seventh Seal to be opened after the numberless multitude are in Heaven. So this also forces the Seventh Seal to be opened AFTER Christ's return (because they are already in Heaven AFTER the Tribulation), which means Christ HAS to return during the Sixth Seal.

The fact that the saints are seen in Heaven between the Sixth Seal and the Seventh Seal emphatically verifies that the Seals cannot simply be a "foreknowledge" of actual events to come.

Also,

Revelation 6:12 "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood"

What "happened" when he "had opened" the Sixth Seal? Was it just the foreknowledge of what would happen at a later time? No way! That is certainly not merely foreknowledge. These events occurred when? When he "had opened" the Sixth Seal; not at some other time in the future. When Seals are opened, the corresponding events, whether they be certain Trumpets, Vials, the Second Coming, etc., occur. The Seals "are part of" the events that occur, and they encompass everything. In fact, the Seals themselves ARE "the Revelation" of Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by whirlwind
Presently, we are in the time of the fifth trumpet.

No, we most certainly are not. Why on earth would you think we are already in the Fifth Trumpet? Why would you think ANY of the Trumpets have sounded? Very curious about this, because you are definitely straying from what is written in the Scriptures concerning the Trumpets.

 

[whirlwind]

Yes the Tribulation and the Wrath are two separate events. I think we all actually agree on this.

When we look at the Tribulation in types and shadows, we see that its always God who sends His people into tribulation. He empowers a "beast kingdom" to take His people captive. Israel (as a type for the church) has always been captured by a beast kingdom , whenever they were out of step with God.

The church now is out of step and so God has to allow us to be taken over by "Babylon", as we see in Revelation. This is the last one, so this time, its also the biggest one, because this time, it involves the whole earth. God now dies not use just one little kingdom to capture a small group of people in the Middle East, but this time, He is using the whole "Babylon" against His worldwide church.

Yes. Both the house of Israel and then two hundred years later...the house of Judah were placed in captivity. Their history tells us our present and future. We will go into, (are now in), captivity to the beast and his system. There are so many types showing us how it all happens.

 

[whirlwind]

Here is another man child type and shadow:

Est 10:1 And the king Ahasuerus laid a tribute upon the land, and upon the isles of the sea.
Est 10:2 And all the acts of his power and of his might, and the full account of the greatness of Mordecai, whereunto the king advanced him, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Media and Persia?
Est 10:3 For Mordecai the Jew was next unto king Ahasuerus, and great among the Jews, and accepted of the multitude of his brethren, seeking the good of his people, and speaking peace to all his seed.

Ahasuerus is a type for God. Esther a type for the Bride and Vashti a type of the apostate church.(Vashti has her own party in the "Kings House" (Kingdom) Est 1:9 Also Vashti the queen made a feast for the women (churches) in the royal house (Kingdom of God)which belonged to king Ahasuerus.

Here is the timing clue:

Est 1:3 in the third year of his reign, he made a feast (We are now in the morning of the third day after Jesus and the wedding feast is about to happen)

Here is the New Testament "third day wedding feast"

Joh 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee;

Here is another time clue. We are now also in the morning of the seventh day after Adam:


Est 1:10 On the seventh day, when the heart of the king was merry with wine,(The life is in the blood and the wine is Blood) he commanded Mehuman, Biztha, Harbona, Bigtha, and Abagtha, Zethar, and Carcas, the seven chamberlains that ministered in the presence of Ahasuerus the king,( Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceed lightnings and voices and thunders. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God; )
Est 1:11 to bring Vashti the queen before the king with the crown royal, to show the peoples and the princes her beauty; for she was fair to look on.

Sorry I am going off topic a bit, but its all so good

It's not off topic at all.....I love to have these pointed out. When a verse that was read in the past suddenly reveals a completely fresh thought it makes me want to go back to the beginning and read it all again with new eyes. But then...a new thought is revealed in a beginning verse and it takes us to verses all throughout the bible. It is all connected as it is all written by the same author. Absolutely breathtaking when we see the Divine Power in His Word. :amen

 

[whirlwind]

* Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


Is that not the man child teaching the church during the wilderness time? If it is then didn't they receive the latter rain during the first month? Isn't the latter rain the deeper truths that the Holy Spirit reveals to them?

You forget that the First Fruit man child is just that : FIRST fruits. So at this time they have had the latter rain already . Its just like in the time of Jesus. He first received the Holy Spirit , then he taught the "woman" (disciples) (How long did He teach them ) and then they too received the early rain (after they were nourished in their wilderness )

We may be saying the same thing in different ways. I agree...The man child has already received the latter rain when they teach the woman in the wilderness. Joel tells us it is received in the first month. I just don't see that as being the same event Joel writes will happen when His Spirit is poured on all flesh. To me, that event happens during the great tribulation....Satan's time of five months. The three and one half years is part of the tribulation but not the "hour of temptation." I see the three and one half years as the day of ...not the hour. But....I'm still learning. :yes

Jesus ministered three and a half years This is the time He nourished the woman in His day.

http://www.gotquestions.org/length-Jesus-ministry.html

Rev 12:14 And there were given to the woman the two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness unto her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, (Three and a half years) from the face of the serpent.

Notice that the disciples were being taught how to follow God according to His Word. They were being taught how to walk "outside the camp" of their religion that they grew up in.God will take His elect out of the harlot church before the end comes.Just remember that some of these pictures overlap with others in Revelation.

For instance: You and I have come out of Egypt when we started this walk of salvation, but there is still much of Egypt in us too. That makes us a bit of a mixture and not just pure "this" or "that". God must take Egypt out of His church and that is why she must be nourished for three and a half years.

Look, here is the type and shadow for what I am saying. A "mixed multitude" left Egypt (Israel and Egyptians) Exo 12:37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, besides children.
Exo 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

But the Egyptians all died in the desert (tribulation)

The same with us. We "get saved" but now God must get the world out of us. He uses tribulation to do that. (Jesus went into the desert to be tested, 40 days (number of testing) ) So in a way the man child is teaching the harlot church in the desert, but not THE Harlot. No, they are cleaning the Bride of all spots and blemishes. During this time all false teachers will leave the Bride.She will be spotless.

These will leave: 2Pe 2:12 But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,
2Pe 2:13 suffering wrong as the hire of wrong-doing; men that count it pleasure to revel in the day-time, spots and blemishes, revelling in their deceivings while they feast with you;

 

[Cornelius]

We are all still learning WW. Me included

Something that we must notice in this thread, is the lack of contention ! When the truth is just added to in love, we do not fight, we share. Isa 28:9 Whom will he teach knowledge? and whom will he make to understand the message? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts?
Isa 28:10 For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, there a little.

 

[whirlwind]

Isn't the latter rain the deeper truths that the Holy Spirit reveals to them?

N0 , its the 100 fold manifestation of Christ in some people. Mat 13:8 and others fell upon the good ground, and yielded fruit(Some will yield this fruit FIRST ), some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.


They will see Him as He (the Word) is and will be exactly like Him.1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.

We will walk as He walked.

Again, I think we are saying the same thing although you have added another dimension which is....The latter rain is the "manifestation of Christ." As He is the Word then He is also the latter rain which is Him, the Word, manifesting in the man child. Understanding Him, the Word, brings about Him manifesting in us. Then they are the same...The Word, The Latter Rain, The Manifestation in His man child. And then...."we will walk as He walked."

That sounds confusing to me and I wrote it. But, I also think I am beginning to understand.

 

[whirlwind]

Originally posted by whirlwind
The seals are written to tell us what will happen.

??? I'm not following you here. Are you saying The Seals are simply a foreknowledge of the events that occur in the Tribulation, but not the events themselves? If that is what you are suggesting (maybe you are not), that is incorrect, and may be the reason you are not understanding the timing of the Tribulation properly. The breaking of the Seven Seals produces "The revelation of Jesus Christ". A "new aspect of Jesus" is revealed when each seal is broken.

Hi Osgiliath,

Yes, I'm saying the seals are a foreknowledge. A seal is a secret, a stamp for preservation. (#4972 to keep secret, to attest) They are given to prepare our minds for what will happen. To some they remain a secret but to others....He opens the knowledge...tells the secret and it is SEALED in our minds. They don't tell when the event happens but that it will happen.

What would make you think the Seals were simply the template of what occurs later? Is it simply because the Sixth Seal is located in Revelation 6, but the Seventh Seal is located in Revelation 8:1? Revelation 7 is between Revelation 6 and 8. The first eight verses in Revelation 7 concern the 144,000. Are they sealed AFTER Christ returns? No! Actually, a new prophecy begins because the chronological order given in Revelation 6 is broken. The 144,000 are NOT sealed AFTER Christ returns.

I agree....all that are to be sealed are sealed before the wrath, before the tribulation ends. The sealing of that time is that they will understand they have been following the false christ....they must be sealed to that knowledge before the end, before the four winds are loosed. Those that aren't sealed to that truth will receive the wrath of God.

The Seventh Seal (Revelation 8:1), has to happen AFTER Christ returns because chronological order is not broken. Check it out:

Osgiliath, the seals aren't the events...they are the telling of the events. Some have happened and others are yet future. The seventh seal is about the return OF Christ...not after His return. He returns at the seventh trumpet....Satan's arrival is foretold in the sixth. (his number...sixth seal, sixth vial, sixth trump....666 )

Revelation 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. . . .

Revelation 7:13 Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"

Revelation 7:14 I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. . . .

Revelation 7:15 Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. . . .

Revelation 7:16 Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. . . .

Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

Revelation 8:1 When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

Those mentioned in Revelation 7, the multitude etc. are those that will come out of the tribulation before it ends....before the wrath begins. Then we have a break, a new chapter, new subject. It tells us, seals in our minds, that when that time arrives Satan's tribulation is ending. The angels are given the seven trumpets to sound. They are sounded to execute an order into action...charge! They sound, the vials are poured...and they contain the wrath of God.

Since the Sixth Seal is the Second Coming, the Seventh Seal has to occur AFTER Christ returns, in fact, it has to occur AFTER the numberless multitude assemble around the throne. Remember, the Seventh Seal is opened after the saints come out of the Tribulation and are seen in Heaven standing around the throne. The Seventh Seal is opened in verse 8:1. The location of verse 8:1 forces the Seventh Seal to be opened after the numberless multitude are in Heaven. So this also forces the Seventh Seal to be opened AFTER Christ's return (because they are already in Heaven AFTER the Tribulation), which means Christ HAS to return during the Sixth Seal.

But the sixth seal IS NOT telling us about the second coming of Christ. It is telling us of Satan's arrival...not when he actually arrives but telling us about when and how he will arrive.

• * Revelation 6:1-2 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, "come and see." And I saw, and behold, a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

That isn't Christ...it is the fake.

I need to point out that this is NOT the first seal...it is "one of the seals." The seals are numbered second, third, etc. but the above is not listed as the "first seal." It is one of the seven but not the first!

Instead of it being the first seal the Lamb is opening it is the sixth seal! Both [6:1-2 and 6:12-14] are the same event. They are about Satan's time, his great tribulation. It is revealed to us first, out of sequence, as it is the most important for us to know.

The seal (secret being revealed to us), is that Satan will arrive before Christ, pretending to be Christ.

The fact that the saints are seen in Heaven between the Sixth Seal and the Seventh Seal emphatically verifies that the Seals cannot simply be a "foreknowledge" of actual events to come.

Revelation isn't given in chronilogical order.

Also,

Revelation 6:12 "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood"

What "happened" when he "had opened" the Sixth Seal? Was it just the foreknowledge of what would happen at a later time? No way! That is certainly not merely foreknowledge. These events occurred when? When he "had opened" the Sixth Seal; not at some other time in the future. When Seals are opened, the corresponding events, whether they be certain Trumpets, Vials, the Second Coming, etc., occur. The Seals "are part of" the events that occur, and they encompass everything. In fact, the Seals themselves ARE "the Revelation" of Jesus Christ.

I agree that the seals are the revelation...they are the revealing of what will be. They are not the event.

[quote:zvqpr3d9]Originally posted by whirlwind
Presently, we are in the time of the fifth trumpet.

No, we most certainly are not. Why on earth would you think we are already in the Fifth Trumpet? Why would you think ANY of the Trumpets have sounded? Very curious about this, because you are definitely straying from what is written in the Scriptures concerning the Trumpets.[/quote:zvqpr3d9]

:splat Boy do I have red on my face! You are correct....I misspoke (miswrote ) We are NOT in the time of the fifth trumpet....we are in the time of the fifth seal.