The Man Child / The Very Elect

[whirlwind]

That is correct.

Just something about "dying to self" and dying during the Tribulation :

First, we know 1Co 15:50....... that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Spiritually speaking, the man child or first fruits have truly "died to self" . Meaning their flesh does not rule them anymore. They have indeed overcome the flesh."To he who overcometh........." So that is why the enemy cannot hurt them , nor kill them. They have "died" and cannot be killed again. They now live in Psalm 91 .The "secret place" being Christ (the LIVING Word)

Secondly , most Christians will not die to self before the Tribulation and many will enter the Kingdom through physical death. The flesh must die.

So we do have an opportunity to lay down this life willingly and in God's eyes, that counts as a real death.That will protect us during the tribulation.

That raises questions. It appears to me that the man child will, as well as dying to self, also be physcially killed. To me, this is part of the difference in the witnesses and the man child. In considering all of this it seems that the man child are the "70 palm trees" and they will follow Him in every way.

Please share your thoughts on this.

 

[whirlwind]

I just saw this post by "C" in another thread....

Interesting fact about Jonah, is that Jonah HAD to first run away. He had to be three days in the belly of the fish, because God wanted Jonah as a sign of Jesus being three days in the grave:

Luk 11:30 For even as Jonah became a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.

Luk 11:29 And when the multitudes were gathering together unto him, he began to say, This generation is an evil generation: it seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of Jonah

Jonah felt that he chose it, but God steered him through this, to create a type and shadow for future generations.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days....

• * Matthew 24:30-31 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

As Jonah is the sign....is not the man child those that will "go into the belly" for three days? They return with Christ and gather those that were not killed as they were. This is the change of bodies.

But, it is written that the witnesses will be killed. My question is...is that all the witnesses or only the man child? Is part spiritual and part physical? What is the distinction in the man child and the two witnesses?

editing to add....

I just noticed:

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time fo the dead that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."


Is that the "two prophets" of 11:10? Are they those that were slain while the saints are those that were gathered? All are the two witnesses and as such all died to self but only the two prophets were physically killed?

 

[Cornelius]

You are mixing up some "signs" The virgin giving birth (Mary) is also called a sign, but she is not the same sign as Jonah , nor is Jonah the sign for the man child. Jesus Himself is called a sign in Luke. He IS a sign for the man child. Jonah is the sign for the death and resurrection of Christ. Three days in the belly of the fish and if you read it carefully, you will see that Jonah was in fact dead during that time:

Jon 2:2 And he said, I called by reason of mine affliction unto Jehovah, And he answered me; Out of the belly of Sheol cried I,Jon 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; The earth with its bars closed upon me for ever: Yet hast thou brought up my life from the pit,

The pit is death:

Eze 32:30 There are the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Sidonians, who are gone down with the slain; in the terror which they caused by their might they are put to shame; and they lie uncircumcised with them that are slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.

 

[Cornelius]

That raises questions. It appears to me that the man child will, as well as dying to self, also be physcially killed. To me, this is part of the difference in the witnesses and the man child. In considering all of this it seems that the man child are the "70 palm trees" and they will follow Him in every way.

Please share your thoughts on this.

No, the man child is Christ manifest. He already died once. This time He is victorious and death has no power over Him. If you separate Jesus Christ from the man child, your picture will fall down. He IS the man child. But this time He is in His corporate Body (The Body of Christ )

The Body of Christ is not a title, its Who we are. The man child is the first fruits to manifest this. If you can imagine a 144000 Jesus's walking around, you will start getting the picture. The human side (flesh) has died .(That is reality of baptism) and now the spiritual Man Christ, has taken possession of the vessel. (The reality of walking in the resurrection power in manifestation, not just by faith)

 

[whirlwind]

You are mixing up some "signs" The virgin giving birth (Mary) is also called a sign, but she is not the same sign as Jonah , nor is Jonah the sign for the man child. Jesus Himself is called a sign in Luke. He IS a sign for the man child. Jonah is the sign for the death and resurrection of Christ. Three days in the belly of the fish and if you read it carefully, you will see that Jonah was in fact dead during that time:

Jon 2:2 And he said, I called by reason of mine affliction unto Jehovah, And he answered me; Out of the belly of Sheol cried I,Jon 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; The earth with its bars closed upon me for ever: Yet hast thou brought up my life from the pit,

The pit is death:

Eze 32:30 There are the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Sidonians, who are gone down with the slain; in the terror which they caused by their might they are put to shame; and they lie uncircumcised with them that are slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.

Okay....I got it.

 

[whirlwind]

That raises questions. It appears to me that the man child will, as well as dying to self, also be physcially killed. To me, this is part of the difference in the witnesses and the man child. In considering all of this it seems that the man child are the "70 palm trees" and they will follow Him in every way.

Please share your thoughts on this.

No, the man child is Christ manifest. He already died once. This time He is victorious and death has no power over Him. If you separate Jesus Christ from the man child, your picture will fall down. He IS the man child. But this time He is in His corporate Body (The Body of Christ )

The Body of Christ is not a title, its Who we are. The man child is the first fruits to manifest this. If you can imagine a 144000 Jesus's walking around, you will start getting the picture. The human side (flesh) has died .(That is reality of baptism) and now the spiritual Man Christ, has taken possession of the vessel. (The reality of walking in the resurrection power in manifestation, not just by faith)

Then who are these?

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall over come them, and kill them. (9) And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. (11) And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.



How does the beast kill them when they cannot be killed? Jesus has died once and the saints have also died spiritually but....someone is being killed by the beast.

 

[Cornelius]

You will understand when you see the picture in the gospels :

Mar 6:7 And he calleth unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and he gave them authority over the unclean spirits;

The Man Child sent "two witnesses". The same thing will happen again. The ManChild will send the two witnesses out. (Gentile and Jewish remnant believers) and then finally the gospel will be preached to all the earth. He (then man child ministry) will send the witnesses with power, like Jesus anointed His "two witnesses" with power.Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject unto us in thy name.

Rev 11:3 And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks, standing before the Lord of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man desireth to hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth and devoureth their enemies; and if any man shall desire to hurt them, in this manner must he be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have the power to shut the heaven, that it rain not during the days of their prophecy: and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they shall desire.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that cometh up out of the abyss shall make war with them, and overcome them, and kill them.


These are they , that have not truly died to self by the time Christ manifests. They will stand against the beast for three and a half years .After that they will be killed. (Like the disciples in Acts and after Acts )

 

[Cornelius]

Note: In the Numeric New Testament, the correct translation for this scripture is:

Rev 11:8 And their dead body lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And from among the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations do men look upon their dead bodies three days and a half, and suffer not their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.

Dead body (not bodies) because its also a corporate body of people and not just two people."Great city",when you look it up in Revelation always speaks of Babylon. Jesus was crucified outside Jerusalem , so spiritually speaking He was crucified in the "world" (or as Revelation calls it, the "great city" or "Babylon" ), because Jerusalem is a type for the "Kingdom of God" (Jesus could not be crucified in Jerusalem, it would destroy the type and shadow)

Three and a half days are three and half years,so when they become alive again, is at the first resurrection/rapture . The last trumpet. It all fits!

 

[whirlwind]

Note: In the Numeric New Testament, the correct translation for this scripture is:

Rev 11:8 And their dead body lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And from among the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations do men look upon their dead bodies three days and a half, and suffer not their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.

Dead body (not bodies) because its also a corporate body of people and not just two people."Great city",when you look it up in Revelation always speaks of Babylon. Jesus was crucified outside Jerusalem , so spiritually speaking He was crucified in the "world" (or as Revelation calls it, the "great city" or "Babylon" ), because Jerusalem is a type for the "Kingdom of God" (Jesus could not be crucified in Jerusalem, it would destroy the type and shadow)

Three and a half days are three and half years,so when they become alive again, is at the first resurrection/rapture . The last trumpet. It all fits!

I remember you explaining the "body/bodies" before.

I'll have to read back through the Scriptures quoted in this thread about the dying and being slain and apply what you have taught here. I'm sure it will make more sense to me then.

Concerning Jerusalem...I agree. The wording was so odd when it spoke of Jesus being crucified in the great city that when I studied it I saw that it wasn't Jerusalem at all but was Babylon.

 

[Cornelius]

Concerning Jerusalem...I agree. The wording was so odd when it spoke of Jesus being crucified in the great city that when I studied it I saw that it wasn't Jerusalem at all but was Babylon. [/b]

Oh, good for you ! Few people see this.They go for the obvious and think its talking about Jerusalem, just because it mentions "where our Lord was crucified"

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Cornelius
Oh, good for you ! Few people see this.They go for the obvious and think its talking about Jerusalem, just because it mentions "where our Lord was crucified"

Very true!

"Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified." (Revelation 11:8)

Notice that there is only one street in the great city:

Remember:

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7:13,14)

And:

"The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth." And the prostitute sits on many waters!" (Revelation 17:18)

And back to verse 15:

"Then the angel said to me, "The waters which you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues." (Revelation 17:15)

The prostitute is the great city that rules over the kings of Earth and she sits upon many waters (nations, peoples).

"And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." (Revelation 17:5)

 

[Cornelius]

Why do other people not see this, when it is written so clearly ?

 

[whirlwind]

Why do other people not see this, when it is written so clearly ?

It upsets the apple cart. You know, the same cart that carries all those non-existant apples from the garden.

 

[Vic C.]

Originally posted by whirlwind
Revelation 6 is about the fake christ...the great deceiver.

Oh my.

We definitely should return to the Man Child discussion. :D

LOL, and to think I was just about to bring up Rev. 6:2 and 10:1 again. :D

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Cornelius
Why do other people not see this, when it is written so clearly ?

Very true. It's amazing isn't it? But when you think about it, who reads the Bible anymore (I mean - REALLY reads - thoroughly - with full attention)? It's so much easier to let someone else do the work, and read some biased, dumbed down church newsletter or quarterly (made as simple as possible in order to "sell it"). Likewise, it's much easier to pop in a tape or CD of a favorite preacher, or watch them on TV. I've been wondering this same thing for decades, and that is the only reason I can think of. There is no other explanation, because it can't possibly be missed if it is actually read. They're just making it more difficult on themselves, because the Bible is so easy if the leaven is simply tossed into the dumpster and they start fresh. The Word is not SUPPOSED to be confusing, it's meant to be easy. The only time confusion and difficulty arises is when a pre-conceived idea is in conflict with the words you are reading from the pages.

 

[Cornelius]

Originally posted by Cornelius
Why do other people not see this, when it is written so clearly ?

Very true. It's amazing isn't it? But when you think about it, who reads the Bible anymore (I mean - REALLY reads - thoroughly - with full attention)? It's so much easier to let someone else do the work, and read some biased, dumbed down church newsletter or quarterly (made as simple as possible in order to "sell it"). Likewise, it's much easier to pop in a tape or CD of a favorite preacher, or watch them on TV. I've been wondering this same thing for decades, and that is the only reason I can think of. There is no other explanation, because it can't possibly be missed if it is actually read. They're just making it more difficult on themselves, because the Bible is so easy if the leaven is simply tossed into the dumpster and they start fresh. The Word is not SUPPOSED to be confusing, it's meant to be easy. The only time confusion and difficulty arises is when a pre-conceived idea is in conflict with the words you are reading from the pages.

That is right. Jesus called it leaven. Leaven makes bread taste better. Obviously unleavened bread is not so pleasing to the flesh.That is why God uses the example of leavened and unleavened bread.

We naturally tend to accept things easier when they please the flesh , but when the Word comes to us "as written" its harder for us to accept it. There are many examples , even on this forum. Just start a topic on "Love your enemies" and most Christians will tell you why they have to shoot them (leaven). The unleavened reality means, we have to TRUST God to save us when we have an intruder,(God wants us to be weak, so that He can be strong) and that is hard of the flesh, so we add leaven to the Word until we can shoot the intruder AND feel spiritually justified by doing so.

 

[Cornelius]

Something that WW will enjoy: What does the name Mordecai mean ?

 

[Cornelius]

http://www.babynameshq.com/name/Mordecai

 

[Cornelius]

Also in Persian :

Another interpretation of the name is that that it is of Persian origin meaning "little boy"

.......................man child or "little boy" :yes

 

[whirlwind]

Originally posted by whirlwind
Revelation 6 is about the fake christ...the great deceiver.

Oh my.

We definitely should return to the Man Child discussion. :D

LOL, and to think I was just about to bring up Rev. 6:2 and 10:1 again. :D

I'm game if you are. :yes