The Man of Sin

[ezrider]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means:for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

This scripture is not speaking of a one time rapture event, this is showing the process of being born again; and it is spiritual. As Paul said, I was a alive once without the law, but when the law came, sin revived and I died. Many have come to the knowledge of God, and have accepted Jesus Christ as their savior; but they see themselves as sinners waiting for redemption so they measure themselves by their own obedience to the law, and try to perfect themselves by its image. Through obedience to the law, we find it declares that each of us is a man of sin, we are the son that is going into perdition, and we exalt ourselves above the throne of God by thinking that our own righteousness and our own works and obedience to the law might garner the Lords favor, or that by our righteousness we may add anything unto to the Lord's. It is that man of sin that is consumed by the spirit of his mouth and the brightness of his coming; for through the death of Christ we have become dead to the law of sin, and yet are made alive in the resurrection of Christ. Made alive not to walk by obedience, but to walk by Faith in the image of Christ in the kingdom of our Lord.

Many do err when they read into these versus the Antichrist, or Satan as the one sitting in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. But quite the contrary, it is Satan who wants YOU to exalt YOURSELF above all that is called God. This has been declared to you from the beginning: Two ways were set before you, the tree of life and the tree of knowledge. The Tree of Life by way of Faith, and the tree of knowledge by the way of obedience. The serpent seduced Eve into eating from the tree of knowledge by calling it a tree to be desired, and one to make you wise, but he deceived her in saying you shall not die, but you shall be as God's knowing good and evil. The serpent has only sought for you to continue partaking of the tree of knowledge, so that you would sit in the temple of God, showing yourself that you are God, judging good and evil. The bible for many is become to them a tree of knowledge, a tree to make one wise, whose only end is death. The scripture tells us in the last days knowledge would increase, but to what end? If you ask if this is a sin, or if that is a sin because you don’t wan’t to sin and displease the Lord, then you are walking by obedience and not by faith.

If your relationship with God is defined by your obedience to the word and by your knowledge and understanding of the bible, then you are not living by Faith. Jesus went out into the wilderness and fasted for 40 days. Could you lay down your bible and fast from the scriptures? You already know the scriptures, and you've read the beatitudes a hundred times: set down your bibles and learn to trust in the Lord. And when Faith does come, you will find in your scriptures an innumerable cloud of witnesses sharing with you their testimony.

 

[Gary]

This scripture is not speaking of a one time rapture event,

You're right, it's not. It's speaking of this event:

Revelation 13
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.
12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.

Made alive not to walk by obedience, but to walk by Faith in the image of Christ in the kingdom of our Lord.

John 14
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

John 15
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

1 John 2
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

.

 

[agua.]

2Ti 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Jesus quoted scripture in defense/attack against satan and as far as I know the "son of perdition" isn't me. :/

Joh 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; (32) And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

 

[agua.]

You're right, it's not. It's speaking of this event:

Revelation 13
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.
12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.







John 14
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

John 15
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

1 John 2
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

.

 

[Gary]

2Ti 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Jesus quoted scripture in defense/attack against satan and as far as I know the "son of perdition" isn't me. :/

Joh 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; (32) And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

 

[Shannon H]

This is describing real events, that will happen, when you try to make a literal scripture "spiritual" you run into error, I don't think it wise to tell anyone to lay down there Bibles acts 17:11

 

[Eugene]

@ezrider

This is certainly not a doctrine I’ve heard before. Do you think it’s a good thing to not grow in grace and truth of our Lord then? What of walking not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, and thus the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Not by us) Romans 8:4?

I may not be reading your thinking here correctly, but it seems to come as close to saying as we see in Rom 6:1, What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

One last thing I will comment on is the thought you have of the man of sin not being Satan, or his puppet who we have dubbed the antichrist. You wrote: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

2 Thessalonians 2:4. "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Rev 13:7 . .Power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." Is this not the beast; that man of sin we know as antichrist, or even the Little Horn of Daniel Chapter Seven? This does not seen to fit the description of every Christian that believes they are keeping the law. We read that God even receives the one that does not eat certain things for God, and the one that does, and I thank God that He does lest my sin remain ever before me. (Rom 14:3)

Revelation 13:8. "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

"To overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Thanks.

 

[ezrider]

You're right, it's not. It's speaking of this event:

Revelation 13
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.
12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.







John 14
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

John 15
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

1 John 2
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

.

It is interesting that you would quote Rev 13 here, because there are two images that present themselves: the image of the resurrected Christ by Grace through Faith; and the image of the Beast, the image of man in his obedience to the carnal laws of sin.

Maybe I wasn't quite clear, but when I spoke of obedience, I was speaking of obedience to the law of sin in the flesh. You can not serve obedience to the law of sin and the Grace of God at the same time. If you are trying to obey the law so that you don't sin in the flesh, then you are trying to perfect yourself in the flesh. And if when you falter in the flesh, do you continually bring your sins before the Lord? In doing so the scripture tells us that you are crucifying to yourself Christ anew, and do put Him to open shame. It is an act that says I don't believe in the work the Cross, but I believe in His Sacrifice, so you continue showing your obedience to the Lord by obeying the law, and your obedience is reinforced when the Lord blesses you for your obedience. But do not be deceived, because the scripture tells us that with obedience to the law came both blessings and curses. Yet through Faith, the crucifixion of Christ has made me dead to the law of sin, that I should no more serve it, and it shall have no power over me.

As to keeping the commandments: which ones? The commandments that demand obedience to dead works? Or the commandments to love one another, to forgive each other your trespasses, to walk in Faith. How about the very first commandment given by God: but of the tree of knowledge you shall not eat? If you have to work to forgive each other your trespasses, do you do so out of obligation to the commandment to forgive one another? Or is because though your Faith the Lord has created within you a forgiving nature, where even the sins of another against you, has no foothold to gain power over you.

 

[ezrider]

This is describing real events, that will happen, when you try to make a literal scripture "spiritual" you run into error, I don't think it wise to tell anyone to lay down there Bibles acts 17:11

Searching the scriptures in Acts 17:11 has nothing to do with reading the scriptures so that they could perfect themselves by obedience to the law, they were searching the scripture in confirmation of the things revealed to concerning Jesus.

Why are do you believe spiritual is somehow in error. Do you not know that we are spiritual being?

Rom 8:1-8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 Cor 9:9-14 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit:for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:for they are foolishness unto him:neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

And why not set down your bible for a while? Are you that dependent on it for you to feel connected with the Lord? Do you depend on the bible to sustain your faith? Have you considered that the very book you hold as the sacred word of God, might also choke out the faith planted in you. Remember the parable of the sower? Jesus fasted for 40 days in the wilderness, could you not also fast from your bible for 40 days? Have a little Faith.

 

[ezrider]

@ezrider

This is certainly not a doctrine I’ve heard before. Do you think it’s a good thing to not grow in grace and truth of our Lord then? What of walking not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, and thus the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Not by us) Romans 8:4?

I may not be reading your thinking here correctly, but it seems to come as close to saying as we see in Rom 6:1, What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

One last thing I will comment on is the thought you have of the man of sin not being Satan, or his puppet who we have dubbed the antichrist. You wrote: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

2 Thessalonians 2:4. "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Rev 13:7 . .Power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." Is this not the beast; that man of sin we know as antichrist, or even the Little Horn of Daniel Chapter Seven? This does not seen to fit the description of every Christian that believes they are keeping the law. We read that God even receives the one that does not eat certain things for God, and the one that does, and I thank God that He does lest my sin remain ever before me. (Rom 14:3)

Revelation 13:8. "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

"To overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Thanks.

Eugene, you asked if I think it’s a good thing to not grow in grace and truth of our Lord? And I would tell you it is quite the contrary, by Faith I grow in the Grace and Truth of the Lord. You can not remain obedient to the law of sin in the flesh and walk by Faith and Grace at the same time. When you are obedient to the law of sin, then are you working to perfect your flesh in the image if the law. But by Faith Christ has made us dead to the law of sin in the flesh that we should no more serve it, and yet alive in spirit by His resurrection that we may walk in the Grace of God while the image of Christ is formed in us. And as our inner man is perfected, it will tame the flesh, though it is a nature that we must continue to bare with.

Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? How shall we continue in something that by Faith is dead to us, lest our faith also is dead?

 

[Gary]

It is interesting that you would quote Rev 13 here, because there are two images that present themselves: the image of the resurrected Christ by Grace through Faith; and the image of the Beast, the image of man in his obedience to the carnal laws of sin.

Show me.

Maybe I wasn't quite clear, but when I spoke of obedience, I was speaking of obedience to the law of sin in the flesh. You can not serve obedience to the law of sin and the Grace of God at the same time. If you are trying to obey the law so that you don't sin in the flesh, then you are trying to perfect yourself in the flesh. And if when you falter in the flesh, do you continually bring your sins before the Lord? In doing so the scripture tells us that you are crucifying to yourself Christ anew, and do put Him to open shame. It is an act that says I don't believe in the work the Cross, but I believe in His Sacrifice, so you continue showing your obedience to the Lord by obeying the law, and your obedience is reinforced when the Lord blesses you for your obedience. But do not be deceived, because the scripture tells us that with obedience to the law came both blessings and curses. Yet through Faith, the crucifixion of Christ has made me dead to the law of sin, that I should no more serve it, and it shall have no power over me.

The law was never abolished. It is still in place.

Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.


Heaven and earth haven't passed away yet, which means the law is still in place.

As to keeping the commandments: which ones? The commandments that demand obedience to dead works? Or the commandments to love one another, to forgive each other your trespasses, to walk in Faith. How about the very first commandment given by God: but of the tree of knowledge you shall not eat? If you have to work to forgive each other your trespasses, do you do so out of obligation to the commandment to forgive one another? Or is because though your Faith the Lord has created within you a forgiving nature, where even the sins of another against you, has no foothold to gain power over you.

The answer can be found in the Word.


Romans 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9 For the commandments,
“You shall not commit adultery,”
“You shall not murder,”
“You shall not steal,”
“You shall not bear false witness,”
“You shall not covet,”
and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Mark 12
29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is:‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment.
31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
.

 

[ezrider]

Show me.



The law was never abolished. It is still in place.

Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.


Heaven and earth haven't passed away yet, which means the law is still in place.




The answer can be found in the Word.


Romans 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9 For the commandments,
“You shall not commit adultery,”
“You shall not murder,”
“You shall not steal,”
“You shall not bear false witness,”
“You shall not covet,”
and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Mark 12
29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is:‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment.
31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
.

Show You? Are you being a little demanding? You have no need that I should show you, search the scriptures; the answers can be found in the Word.

Rom 6:4-5
Rom 8:11
Rom 8:29
Rom 8
Gal 4:19
1 Cor 3:16
2 Cor 3:14-16

You are correct, the law has not been abolished, it is still very much in effect; but it holds no power to those being dead to that law through Christ.

 

[Gary]

Show You? Are you being a little demanding? You have no need that I should show you, search the scriptures; the answers can be found in the Word.

Your reluctance to substantiate your claim is an indication of doubt.

Here's your quote:

It is interesting that you would quote Rev 13 here, because there are two images that present themselves: the image of the resurrected Christ by Grace through Faith; and the image of the Beast, the image of man in his obedience to the carnal laws of sin.

Please point out "the image of the resurrected Christ by Grace through Faith" in the scriptures below.

I don't believe my request is demanding or unreasonable.


Revelation 13
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
.

 

[ezrider]

Here's your quote:

Please point out "the image of the resurrected Christ by Grace through Faith" in the scriptures below.

.

Maybe you simply misunderstand what I said. I never claimed that Rev 13 presented an image of Christ, and I have already listed scriptures that speak to that effect. I only alluded to your reference of Rev 13 to juxtapose the image of the beast against the image of Christ that is formed in us that you might draw a contrast between the two.

 

[Gary]

Maybe you simply misunderstand what I said. I never claimed that Rev 13 presented an image of Christ, and I have already listed scriptures that speak to that effect. I only alluded to your reference of Rev 13 to juxtapose the image of the beast against the image of Christ that is formed in us that you might draw a contrast between the two.

Nice dodge.
.

 

[Shannon H]

RM 10:17 faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. If you want to lay your Bible down for a time go ahead, but don't tell me I should do the same, I cherish any time I can get in the word, it sometimes doesn't come often enough, you don't know my background I was starved of the word of God, my whole life, I am 50 now and realize how much I missed many martyrs have given their lives that we may have access to the scriptures, so don't look for me to take you up on that offer. The Bible is a literal book meant to be taken literally, sure it contains spiritual messages and symbolism, but the bulk is literal or has literal meaning. Good Day.

 

[ezrider]

RM 10:17 faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. If you want to lay your Bible down for a time go ahead, but don't tell me I should do the same, I cherish any time I can get in the word, it sometimes doesn't come often enough, you don't know my background I was starved of the word of God, my whole life, I am 50 now and realize how much I missed many martyrs have given their lives that we may have access to the scriptures, so don't look for me to take you up on that offer. The Bible is a literal book meant to be taken literally, sure it contains spiritual messages and symbolism, but the bulk is literal or has literal meaning. Good Day.

Gal 3:22-24 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 4:1-9 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage.

You might want to consider just how literal you should take it; because when Jesus says if your eye offend you, then pluck it out, or if your hand offend you then cut it off. I should hope your appendages are still intact.

 

[digging]

Thank-you Ezrider for sharing,

I agree and see the 'Man of Sin' as a composite of many people, the same way the Bride of Christ is made up of many faithful people.

I also see a strong connection between the Man of Sin and the Image of the Beast as well as the Images in Daniel. All idols are made by human hands, and just as faithful ones are considered living stones in the Temple of God. It's like wise possible to be a 'stone worked by human hands' and be part of this great idol/image/man.

I don't think we need to put down our bibles but rather set down our preconceived indoctrination, stop having fear and and allow our hearts to respond to the law of God being written on our hearts.

Digging

 

[Shannon H]

ahhh, but I have some common sense

 

[Deborah13]

The comments in this thread are becoming personal very quickly.
Please refrain, practice self control and respect for other people.
Thank you.