The Mangling of Ephesians 2:8-9

[Drew]

You thrive on taking verses out of their context to promote a doctrine of works.

Give one example.

Paul is discussing the natural man and the spiritual man...you insist at this particular point of his talk he is strictly addressing believers.

I am sorry, but the english reads as it reads - he is addressing believers.

I will repost the text again. There is simply no way to read this text as being addressed to anyone but believers:

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

Where are the references to nonbelievers?

I see a reference to those with Christ in them (verse 10). Do you see any reference to unbelievers?

I see a reference to those who spirit is alive because of righteousness (verse 10). Do you see any reference to unbelievers?

I see a reference to those in whom the Sprit is living (verse 11). Do you see any reference to unbelievers?

I see a reference to those whose mortal bodies are given life (verse 11). Do you see any reference to unbelievers?

I see a reference to brothers (obviously believers to whom Paul is writing) (verse 12). Do you see any reference to unbelievers?

Five, count 'em, five distinct, clear references to the believer. Where, gd, where is the reference to the non-believer?

Enough of this denial gd - the text is directed at believers.

 

[glorydaz]

You do realize that "doers" must obey every point and cannot fail in even one, don't you?

You seem to think that utlimate justification by good works is basically impossible since even one slip-up disqualifies you.

I suggest that you will not be able to provide an actaul scriptural defence for this, if this is indeed what you believe.

I challenge you to provide any text whatsoever that suggests that the "standard" for any good works judgement is "perfection".

One "slip-up" is sin. God cannot look on iniquity...which is why He had to send His Son to become sin for us. He took our sin, and gave us His righteousness.

The righteousness of man is as filthy rags to God....very simple really.
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.

It's the sin God can't tolerate. Good works do not cover sin.

Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity:

If one bear holy flesh in the skirt of his garment, and with his skirt do touch bread, or pottage, or wine, or oil, or any meat, shall it be holy? And the priests answered and said, No. Then said Haggai, If one that is unclean by a dead body touch any of these, shall it be unclean? And the priests answered and said, It shall be unclean. Then answered Haggai, and said, So is this people, and so is this nation before me, saith the LORD; and so is every work of their hands; and that which they offer there is unclean.

 

[francisdesales]

Christ condemned sin in the flesh...believers are no longer under the DOMINION of sin. You say we can commit one minor sin. Just one? Who gets to decide how many sins we can commit?

We aren't under the Law!!! I don't have to be perfect. I am not sure what part of that you don't get... God sees our inner disposition, knowing it is not going to be absolutely perfect. Your concern continues to contradict itself. We are under Grace, but you keep bringing the Law back... What's the matter?

So, in other words, you are pushing the Spirit out of your life when you react in the flesh?

Yes, when you live a lifestyle of sin, you shall not inherit the Kingdom. Paul makes that clear on a number of occasions, such as 1 Cor 6 and Gal 5.

Not having faith that God is able to keep His own is sin, Joe.

GD, have you read the bible? Your mentality has God bringing ALL the people to the Promised Land - when only 2 survived... All initially had faith. They SAW the works of God - but lost faith, lost inner love, no repentance, etc. Are you telling me that now God has gotten "better" at keeping His People from falling? God gives me ample graces to resist temptation, true? But God also allows me free will, thus, I do sin sometimes. You can't have it both ways. If God "keeps me" from sin, then why do I sin???

There is no perfect person, even after enlightenment. IT follows that God does not absolutely prevent man from sinning. Since ALL sin is offensive to God, you must now ask yourself a question - Why does God allow ANY sin from His chosen???

It seems the "keeping" is not absolute, doesn't it...

our believing unto salvation does not deny we are justified by the faith of Christ. His faith is imparted to us along with His righteousness. You do remember the prayer, "help my unbelief", don't you?

You have given this little thought and are just giving me lip service, GD. You give me a big song and dance about the Israelite's lack of faith, now, you talk about the faith OF Christ. Wasn't the faith OF Jeuss good enogh to save the Jews? this is ridiculous, you again are trying to have it both ways. First, the faith OF Jesus makes EVERYONE righteous, and then you speak about a level of faith from MAN required. Make up your mind... And then you cite the prayer! Why does my faith even matter???

Again, I fail to see why a person's "table manners" matters if I am justified by Jesus' own righteousness. Really. THINK for a second here. Please.

Can't you see the dead end you are going here???

That is why you aren't making progress, your scheme is contradictory to itself and much of it is refuted by the bible - or is not even found in the Bible.

 

[francisdesales]

I can agree with most of what you say. The process of being sanctified lasts our entire lifetime.
We all start out as babes in Christ.

Please explain again to Adullam why you feel sanctification serves absolutely no purpose, since we are covered already with absolute perfection...

Thanks...

 

[jasoncran]

:crazy santification is to show the world that he, the lord, is able to change us as its the result of salvation. the evidence of it

we must become like our daddy.

 

[francisdesales]

Oh, so God ordaining something isn't good enough?

Yes, it IS so, there is no need for legal fiction, calling us righteous when we aren't...

That's one of the many questions you don't get...

James was talking to hypocrites who claim a faith they do not have.

wrong, wrong, wrong. He called what they had DEAD FAITH. He didn't say they "lacked faith", he didn't call it something else where faith was absent. He said it was DEAD FAITH. A FAITH that was LIFELESS. Just as a DEAD BODY is STILL A BODY, DEAD FAITH is STILL FAITH. Albeit lifeless. James makes that clear to all who are interested in hearing what God has to say.

How many times must you be told this??? Are you resisting common sense or do you just refuse to admit you are wrong???

Dead faith means no Life. No life means no indwelling Holy Spirit.
Faith "nonetheless"? Really? The faith the devils have is faith "nonetheless"?

That's what James said. Don't complain to me... Clearly, the devil believes that God exists, which is part of the definition of "faith".

No, you're confused about what dead faith is. If you understood that the Holy Spirit's fruit included faith, you'd know that our faith comes from Jesus Christ when we are placed IN HIM.

EVERY gift we receive is from the HOLY Spirit, whether it is faith or the promptings to love others. Again, you seem confused about whether it is OUR faith or JESUS faith that is important here (I still haven't heard where you get "Jesus' faith" from..) Why does God give us faith, in your scheme???

PS...you don't have to yell, Joe. That is not showing forth the fruit of the Spirit.

I yell when people can't hear...

Not that it is doing any good with you..

The fruit of the Spirit is my continued attempt to preach the truth to someone who doesn't want to admit they have to change their way of thinking. My fruit is called "love". Like the Pharisees, old habits refuse to die...

 

[francisdesales]

:crazy santification is to show the world that he, the lord, is able to change us as its the result of salvation. the evidence of it

we must become like our daddy.

AGREE, we must BECOME like our Father, not just pretend we are, with Someone else's righteousness applied to our account. We aren't dealing with a legal issue, right Jason? We are FAMILY!!! Praise God for such a wonderful Father who loves us and accepts our meager humility without inventing a need for perfection.

Regards

 

[LaCrum]

Question 1: To whom is Paul speaking?

Drew's answer: To Christian believers
LaCrum answer: Please insert your answer here

Paul is obviously speaking to Christians.

Question 2: Verse 13 promises something to those who put to death the misdeeds of the body through the Spirit. What is it that is promised to such people? (Remember unless you want to toss a hand grenade into the sentence, we have Paul promising something to, yes, those who put to death the misdeeds of the body through the Spirit).

Drew's answer: Eternal life (escaping from the mortality of the body)
LaCrum answer: Please insert your answer here

Wow I think eternal life too! We’re so close to agreeing! But before we can speak about verses 10-13, we need to look at verse 4:

And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Alright, we see that, according to Paul, as believers we DO NOT live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Now we can look at verses 10-14 with this in mind:

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Verse 10 says that our spirit now with Christ in us is alive. Verse 11 confirms that the Holy Spirit, who raised Christ from the dead, now lives within the believer. Verse 12 is telling us, because of this great that has been bestowed upon the believer, we now have an obligation, or a “debt†which can be translated for the Greek, NOT to the flesh (because we OWE or are INDEBTED to the flesh NOTHING, this is also reiterated throughout the NT that we are no long slaves to sin, we now have a choice not to partake in it, as before we had no choice, THIS is what Paul is saying here) but instead to live according to the Spirit (this is an obligation or debt of gratitude for what Christ has done on the cross, NOT a legalistic debt). So now onto verse 13. In 8:1 Paul already assures that for those who are in Christ Jesus, there is NO condemnation. He rather is saying that a person whose life is characterized by the things of the flesh is spiritually dead, and therefore not a genuine believer. Or as Kenneuth West explains: “Assuming that a person lives habitually under the dominion of the evil nature, Paul says, that person is about to be dying. The verb is present in tense, and therefore durative in meaning, indicating habitual action. The individual who lives habitually under the dominion of the evil nature is an unsaved person. That one is on the way to final death in the Lake of Fire. But the person who by the Holy Spirit habitually puts to death the deeds of the body, will live. That person is a saved person.â€

And that’s really cute of you to leave out the verses that follow verse 13 because it’s quite apparent this section is about the work of the Spirit within the believer, not justification by works. It’s set up in a way that verses 10-14 speak of the outward showing of the Spirit in our lives, while 14-17 speaks of the inward showing of it:

Romans 8:14-17

14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[g] And by him we cry, "Abba,[h] Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

 

[jasoncran]

:crazy santification is to show the world that he, the lord, is able to change us as its the result of salvation. the evidence of it

we must become like our daddy.

AGREE, we must BECOME like our Father, not just pretend we are, with Someone else's righteousness applied to our account. We aren't dealing with a legal issue, right Jason? We are FAMILY!!! Praise God for such a wonderful Father who loves us and accepts our meager humility without inventing a need for perfection.

Regards

let me elaborate. as you know that i'm a believer that we are saved as much at the begining of our walk as the same at the end of our life on the earth.

the trials we go through are to make us grow in love for the lord. for the perfection

joe you are married, correct. when you first married the love is shallow, given time and trials and hurts and so on, you grow and that love deepens. santification isnt much different.

we grow so that we can be spiritual giants and reach the lost even more, a babe in christ cant take on athiest on philosophical issues as he is too weak and on milk.However, a man that is mature(not necessarily an elder)in his faith can!

 

[glorydaz]

So backsliders were never saved in the first place.....etc etc....I know the drill.

To understand the bible one must hold up both ends of what we could call the dialectic....2 seemingly contradictory statements that make up the truth in reality.

Even simple logic tells us that a person who falls in the water and needs rescuing may need further rescuing if he falls again into the water. He does not become immune to drowning by being saved from it...he is simply saved at that time. The modern position is that once you are saved once from drowning, then that one can never drown again. He can live under the sea like the fishes and be immune from death. This fable makes a mockery of Christ's work. It is a fantasy.

We are to turn, rather away from death and seek life. IF we get entangled again in the world, we will need to be delivered from our state. The first state to be delivered from is the evangelical stupor that makes the cross of no effect by claiming disobedient unconditional salvation for the rich and spoiled.

Simple logic doesn't understand grace or faith. Simple logic is the flesh...a product of the natural man. Understanding, on the other hand, comes from the Holy Spirit.

"Backsliders", as I understand the word, are people who are out of fellowship with God. David was a backslider when he was making it with Bathsheba and ordering her husband killed, yet God called him a man after His own heart. Their walk is unfruitful and their testimony is shot. They're prodigal sons. They will be chastened by God, and be brought back into the fold because God has promised none will be lost that has been given to Christ.

Many people, think they're saved, but they have not had a change of heart. Their faith is dead...it has not been given LIFE by the indwelling Spirit of God. They work and work, thinking they can please God by doing great deeds. They don't show forth fruit...they produce the righteous deeds of man. They live in the flesh, and have not been born of the Spirit.

There are only "seemingly contradictory" statements because people are reasoning them out with their intellect instead of having them be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit.

When God rescues a drowning swimmer, he is rescued and kept safe near His hand. Instead of making a "mockery of Christ's work", it acknowledges the power of God. Is anything impossible with God? I think not. Have you no faith? Do you walk by sight...seeing all those who claim a salvation they obviously don't have? We aren't circumcised in the flesh by a doctor....we have the hand of God cutting away our heart of stone. Are you saying God is not able to finish the work He began when we were given a new heart? Such cynicism is not from the Spirit of God, but from the adversary himself.

We are KEPT by the Power of God...not by any of our own feeble efforts.

Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[jasoncran]

we cant keep ourselves saved anymore then we can get ourselves saved.

 

[LaCrum]

Praise God for such a wonderful Father who loves us and accepts our meager humility without inventing a need for perfection.

Then why does 1 John 2:6 tell us that we must walk as Jesus walked? Is that not a call for perfection?

 

[jasoncran]

Praise God for such a wonderful Father who loves us and accepts our meager humility without inventing a need for perfection.

Then why does 1 John 2:6 tell us that we must walk as Jesus walked? Is that not a call for perfection?

la crum name one perfect saint. not even paul said that he was perfect and he wrote most of the nt, and ephesians as moved by the holy spirit.

 

[glorydaz]

I can agree with most of what you say. The process of being sanctified lasts our entire lifetime.
We all start out as babes in Christ.

Please explain again to Adullam why you feel sanctification serves absolutely no purpose, since we are covered already with absolute perfection...

Thanks...

We have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us for our justification before God. We now have access to God. We aren't perfect...His perfection is accounted to us. Is that really so difficult for you to understand?

Here...a picture is worth a thousand words...

Because the blood is over our doorpost, the death angel passes over us. The people inside the house did not have to be perfect. The death angel only looked at the blood.

 

[glorydaz]

There is an amazing heresy afoot that claims that obedience is irrelevent for salvation. I never thought I'd live to see this.

It was Christ's obedience that saves us...we will be rewarded according to our obedience, and not with a loss of eternal life. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Don't you ever read anything but the verses that can be twisted to lay charges against the elect of God?

It's heresy to even suggest that God is unable to keep us. It's a total lack of faith in the Lord.

The "heresy" is claiming that we save ourselves by our obedience.
If that were true, there would have been absolutely no reason for Jesus to have died on the cross.

The heresy is claiming God is unable to keep those He has given to the Son.

The heresy is claiming our disobedience will annul the eternal life we've been given when we're born of God. The Lord is faithful to chasten those who are His. We are not our own any longer. Man is ever seeking the glory for his own salvation. That's the shame I'm seeing.

 

[stranger]

stranger wrote: OSAS is refuted by Hebrew 6

Heb 6: 4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Eph 2:8-9 is mangled by the OSAS hermenuetic at every point in this discussion![/quote]

Is that so? Then you must be saying that anyone who falls away is lost forever. He can never be renewed again unto repentance. Do you believe that? How many sins must one commit before he is cut off forever?

The writer in Heb 6:4-7 makes the statement. Allow me to correct you in exactly what I must be saying: "OSAS is refuted by Hebrew 6 AND Eph 2:8-9 is mangled by the OSAS hermenuetic at every point in this discussion!" That is ALL I said in my post other than the quote from Hebrews. If the text scares you - you are not alone, brother. I did make the point about God's mercy and God's severity.

I see a lot of people who are on "stand by" at the airport. They pace around, worried that they won't get a seat. Those whose tickets are confirmed rest peacefully, knowing they will make the flight. Those on stand by have not entered into the rest. They are not entering in because of unbelief. They don't believe God is able to keep those given to the Son.

I don't know any details other than what is revealed in the passage quoted. Can't help you at this point.

We are to KNOW we have eternal life....ASSURANCE. Our tickets are confirmed.

If your walking in the Spirit you will have that assurance.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Those with confirmed tickets are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith. We don't keep ourselves.
1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Those who are kept by God are walking in the Spirit have the witness in themselves. They are safe so long as they continue in faith. Those who are walking in the flesh are in enemy territory, gd. Their problems are guanranteed to increase over time. From this group some will recover, other will be lost. Many are called but few are chosen.

Those on stand-by are CONFIDENT that to be absent with the body is to be present with the Lord. We don't even worry if the plane crashes on the way to our destination. We have PEACE that passes all understanding. The natural man cannot have peace.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

If you have peace which passes all understanding, you are walking in the Spirit, then yes bless you and may your peace increase all the more.

Do you have appropriate passages for those who are walking in the flesh?

You seem to specialise at applying scriptures applicable to those who are walking in the Spirit to those who are walking in the flesh. Maybe the way forward would be to for us to talk about either those walking in the flesh (where we disagree) OR those who are walking in the Spirit (where we are likely to agree).

 

[stranger]

Check this out....and please pay attention...

19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

If a brother Christian....yes a Christian...wanders from the truth....he will die there unless freshly saved from the evil he is doing. The truth is, that we all need to be saved many times. No one has a perfect walk after the initial saving grace is given. How many times did God save Israel in the desert...just once??? Read Psalm 107.

If a righteous person leaves his righteousness to do what is evil...then all the former righteousness he has done will be forgotten and he will die in his sin. The other side of the coin is...when a wicked person forsakes his wickedness and does what is right, then all the former evil will be forgotten and he will live for his repentance. You can't have one reality without the other. There is no..."heads I win tails you lose" in the kingdom of God. God's ways are equal. Read Ez. chaper 18

Salvation is a process!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Adullam,

The texts you quoted are in addition to an increasing body of evidence. To help someone walking in the flesh to recover is to save him from death.

To state the obvious...
Someone who is walking in the Spirit needs to guard against wandering from the truth;
while someone who is walking in the flesh HAS alread wandered from the truth.

Salvation is a process that ends in the glorification of the saints in the Kingdom of God!

 

[jasoncran]

stranger if you choose to sin willfully by that above verse then you cant be saved again.

ever choose sin above the commandments of God, willfully? you knew that it was a sin and did it anyway.

 

[stranger]

deleted

 

[stranger]

jasoncran wrote:

stranger if you choose to sin willfully by that above verse then you cant be saved again.

ever choose sin above the commandments of God, willfully? you knew that it was a sin and did it anyway.

Hi jasoncran,

Heb 6: 4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

The verse doesn't say that, v4,5 are followed by the words.. 'and then have fallen away.' No further details are given as to reasons why they fell away. I would not dare speculate on a verse like this - better see what is said elsewhere - ie examples of falling away.

As to your second point - while walking in the flesh - yes, I have chosen to do things I knew were sin and did it anyway.