The Mangling of Ephesians 2:8-9

[glorydaz]

Yes, I believe that a son of God can 'backslide' to such an extent that he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. An example is found in Heb 6: 4-8

If we walk in the Spirit (we've been bought and paid for...we have a circumcised heart, we're indwelt by the Spirit of God) and God keeps us from falling WE MUST ALSO GUARD OURSELVES LEST WE FALL.

God can do all you suggest and more - but the luxury of time is not on our side -however long or short our lifetime is(?) There are so many warnings throughout scripture 'you have no excuse, oh man, whoever you are, what a man sows so shall he reap.' The following is an example of God engineering our circumstances. If you live according to the flesh you will die, if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the flesh you will live.

Gd, you do well to remember God's mercy, and you do. Have you any comment about 'God's severity' in Roms 11?

As Paul explains in chapter 4 of Hebrews, the Jews failed to enter into God's rest because of UNBELIEF.

Those who need fear are those who fail to enter into the rest. They failed because of unbelief. We which have believed do enter into rest.

1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

To enter into this rest...we MUST cease from our own works. All works and efforts....all fear and doubt. Let us labour to enter into that rest...we strive to enter into the kingdom and then we rest. Those who fail to enter into that rest are not regenerated...are not born of God.

8For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

We have confidence, therefore, in the promises of God, and come boldly before the throne of grace.

16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Those "once enlightened", and "have tasted of the heavenly gift", and were made "partakers of the Holy Ghost", and have "tasted the good word of God" are those who have heard the gospel message, but have NOT entered into the rest. The Jews were led by the Spirit in the wiLderness, they were partakers of the manna and the water from the rock, but they fell back and did not enter into the rest. They failed to enter into the Promised Land because of UNBELIEF. The pews are filled with those who have not ceased from their own works...they are still striving to enter into the kingdom. They're like the pharisees who trusted in themselves for salvation. That's not faith....it's fear and doubt. The Jews who heard the Gospel, did not believe they were to cease from their works, which is why Paul speaks of the need to go back to the basics of the Gospel message.

Paul says it is impossible for those who fall back to their old beliefs of salvation by works to be renewed again unto repentance. Repentance is turning TO the Lord and FROM their reliance on self. The Hebrews Paul is addressing, were in danger of crucifying the Lord all over again because they were unwilling to enter into the rest that only comes by faith. They had faith in themselves...not God.

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Now Paul's word of encouragement....this addressed to those who HAVE entered into the rest. The believers...not those who have merely tasted. Even though I speak of such things, says Paul, I am confident because of the things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. What accompanies salvation? POWER...THE POWER OF GOD TO SAVE AND TO KEEP THOSE WHO ARE HIS. If you haven't entered into the REST, you have not ceased from your own efforts. You have tasted, but not entered in.

9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

"We must guard ourselves lest we fall". I'm sorry, but that is a very sad commentary on the assurance we are to have in Christ. We should examine our heart and see if we have truly entered into God's rest. When we have, we have no doubt, and we rely solely on Jesus...not on ourselves....we cease from our own efforts and strength and trust in Him.

Have we seen the light? Does the light live in us? Then there is no occasion of stumbling...

He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. 11But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

Those who fall away...those who went out from us....were not of us. Those who are born of God would...NO DOUBT have continued. NO DOUBT. Yes, people need to make sure their calling and election is sure. But after we enter in, we should cease from striving, we are to rest and trust in the power of God to keep us. If we can't do that, we don't have faith.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Romans 8 is talking about the natural man who is in the flesh...they will not have life. The spiritual man is indwelt with the Holy Spirit...he is subject to the Law of the Spirit of Life. As I've explained...the spiritual man still walks in the flesh (more than many will admit), but he LIVES in the Spirit.

Romans 11 is speaking of national Israel...who were cut off for unbelief, and the Gentiles (all gentiles) who will also be cut off for unbelief. He is not speaking of individual believers...some Jews were not cut off because they believe. Some gentiles will not be cut off because they believe. Believing equals life. Once again, the natural man and the spiritual man. The natural man does NOT have the Holy Spirit abiding in him. The spiritual man DOES, and he has eternal life.

 

[Drew]

It is probably no co-incidence that LaCrum has not anwered this question either. To directly answer the question would entail an admission that Paul is indeed addressing his remarks to believers and telling them what the text clearly says - believers get life by walking in the Spirit.

She probably doesn't answer because you don't listen to anything we say.

No. The truth is that neither of you can afford to answer the question since it would force you to face the fact that your position simply cannot be squared with what Paul actually writes. Here is the text again:

11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,...

In verse 11, Paul identifies the person he is talking to here - it is the person who has the Spirit in Him. And Paul goes on to assert that Gods will give life to that person's mortal body. Your position cannot have Paul speaking to believers only, so you choose to ignore the clear implication of the sentence - that Paul is addressing believers. In 12 and 13 Paul is clearly continuing his same discourse to the believer - telling him that he will get life - eternal life obviously - if he walks in the Spirit.

Paul's statement is fatal to your position. So what do you do? You somehow insist that Paul cannot be talking to the believers only since - according to you - the believer is not capable of lapsing into the old nature.

Yet clearly Paul disagrees - there is no legitimate to read the above text as a block of English text in a manner that is consistent with what you are saying.

This, of course, is why neither you nor LaCrum will answer the question. I posed the question in such a way that it forces you (and LaCrum) to face the impossibility of your postion. You cannot answer the question because you know full well, or should know full well, that Paul is addressing believers and believers only.

So you don't answer. Well, that is your right.

 

[glorydaz]

OSAS is refuted by Hebrew 6

Heb 6: 4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Eph 2:8-9 is mangled by the OSAS hermenuetic at every point in this discussion!

Is that so? Then you must be saying that anyone who falls away is lost forever. He can never be renewed again unto repentance. Do you believe that? How many sins must one commit before he is cut off forever?

I see a lot of people who are on "stand by" at the airport. They pace around, worried that they won't get a seat. Those whose tickets are confirmed rest peacefully, knowing they will make the flight. Those on stand by have not entered into the rest. They are not entering in because of unbelief. They don't believe God is able to keep those given to the Son.

We are to KNOW we have eternal life....ASSURANCE. Our tickets are confirmed.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Those with confirmed tickets are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith. We don't keep ourselves.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Those on stand-by are CONFIDENT that to be absent with the body is to be present with the Lord. We don't even worry if the plane crashes on the way to our destination. We have PEACE that passes all understanding. The natural man cannot have peace.

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[francisdesales]

To enter into this rest...we MUST cease from our own works. All works and efforts....all fear and doubt.

Do nothing. Pitiful. :verysad

THIS is what you get from the countless "Turn to me" "seek me out", "Repent of your sins" "be humble" and the numerous Gospel statements about Christ DEMANDING that we DO something, like repent, believe, forgive, love???

Sheer Lunacy... :crazy

Is it a wonder that you tell us "do nothing"??? Because in your mind, sanctification is USELESS. There is no need for it. So take Luther's advice, sin all the more, commit rape and murder, but don't worry, God can't see you.

What a piece of work. Literally...

The pews are filled with those who have not ceased from their own works...

wrong, they have ceased doing work pleasing to the Father, such as seeking Him out, rending their hearts, (rather than their garments in a false display of humility) and humbly approaching God, asking for forgiveness...

they are still striving to enter into the kingdom.

We are COMMANDED to strive to enter the Kingdom...!!! With God's mercy, He will allow my imperfect seeking and repentance to be of value, praise be to God!!!

They're like the pharisees who trusted in themselves for salvation.

Luke's version of the two men at prayer show a distinctive difference between what is accepted and what is not, in God's eyes.

Nothing to do with "man is filthy rags" garbage...

If God agreed with your fallacies, the punch line of Jesus' parable would have been:

You FOOL! You both are fools, because ALL OF YOUR WORKS ARE FILTHY RAGS... Both of you... You, stop bragging. And you, stop whining about how sorry you are... Haven't you read the Bible, I never accept anyone's sorrow and humility unless it is PERFECT!!! You must be COVERED, I tell you, COVERED with perfection from someone who is perfect, so I can't see you and your filthy rag attempts of sorrow from the bottom of your heart. It isn't GOOD ENOUGH!!!

Oh, what a view of God you have... :verysad

Man's repentance is deemed righteous and just, acceptable to God, WHEN it is from the heart, true repentance, that does not rely on a false declaration from God, or an alien righteousness.

Note carefully, this is THE SOLE REQUIREMENT to be forgiven of sins. A humble and repentant heart. OT and NT. Clearly, there is no need for human sacrifices (says Micah), just a humble heart that seeks out God... All your scheme does it cloud the issue, PREVENTING men from actually being humble and repentant. WHY be humble when "Christ did it all and I don't do anything, being at peace..."

Paul says it is impossible for those who fall back to their old beliefs of salvation by works to be renewed again unto repentance.

The point is not to make an absolute statement, but to declare that people who have once received Enlightenment and fall away will judge that living in sin is more preferable. They have experienced the faith and did not find it to their liking. Thus, the issue here is a failure to repent. God requires that we repent truly from the heart. Nothing more - and He forgives.

Repentance is turning TO the Lord and FROM their reliance on self.

That forces an incorrect focus. We have within us the power to repent, since the Spirit of God desires us to seek Him and repent! The issue is not "reliance on self", but the idea that jumping through external hoops will free you from ACTUALLY having to humbly submit to God. Clearly, the Jewish leaders were often accused of this, along with many of the priests. This "frustrated" our jealous God, because they did not give Him a return from their hearts as God was giving to them. There is nothing like a love frustrated - and God punished the Jews for it. Over and over.

What is sad is you are doing the same thing, but covering yourself with false theology, rather than lifeless rituals...

Those who fall away...those who went out from us....were not of us.

Another sad misinterpretation. John is stating that false teachers were not sent by the elders of the community, they were not of "us", the elders and Apostles. They taught their own brand of teaching. John was not saying that these men were never Christians, because he clearly states they WERE from the community, they just were not SENT by the Community...

Romans 8 is talking about the natural man who is in the flesh...they will not have life. The spiritual man is indwelt with the Holy Spirit...he is subject to the Law of the Spirit of Life. As I've explained...the spiritual man still walks in the flesh (more than many will admit), but he LIVES in the Spirit.

[/quote]

Again, you add to the text. It clearly is speaking to the believer. Walk in the Spirit, you are in the spirit. Walk in the flesh (CHRISTIAN) and you are in the flesh... Immature Christians who follow after the flesh need to crucify that flesh. Christians need to crucify their passions that continue to draw them from God. CHRISTIANS. Anyone who is a Christian has experienced temptation, the desire to walk in the flesh. Resisting that urge is walking in the spirit. As a man walks, a lifestyle, in the flesh, he is NOT in the Spirit, John calls that idea lies. It is the one who follows after the commandments who is in Christ.

 

[LaCrum]

This, of course, is why neither you nor LaCrum will answer the question. I posed the question in such a way that it forces you (and LaCrum) to face the impossibility of your postion. You cannot answer the question because you know full well, or should know full well, that Paul is addressing believers and believers only.

Actually I haven't gotten around to answering the question because I don't have time to post 4830924832 times a day on this forum because I work two jobs.

That being said, I will be addressing the text as to how to applies to and what it's role is in the New Covenant, since that's how everything in the New Testament (or New Covenant if "New Testament" was correctly translated) should be read.

 

[glorydaz]

Sin is not proof the Lord is not with you....whatever is not faith is sin, and all men sin, he who says he is without sin is a liar, and sin is coming short of the glory of God.

You fail to take into account the difference between A sin and a LIFE of sin. Again, I have said that God does not require absolute perfection, so why would I talk about God leaving me if I commit ONE minor (venial) sin??? John speaks about this in 1 John. No, we are not sinless - BUT - evidence of the Lord within us is our obedience to the commandments. A lifestyle of following the Lord from the heart is required OF US!

We fall short WITHOUT God. With God, we don't. We are seen as acceptable children, bumbling and stumbling, but loved just the same by our Perfect God.

The natural man LIVES in the flesh...that is a life of sin.
The spiritual man LIVES in the Spirit...He is under the LAW of the SPIRIT OF LIFE.

Christ condemned sin in the flesh...believers are no longer under the DOMINION of sin. You say we can commit one minor sin. Just one? Who gets to decide how many sins we can commit? Who gets to decide what are the secret sins of the heart and how many of those can we commit? You do see the flaw with your argument, don't you?

Sin is proof of nothing, and all our sins are forgiven when we believe. Fruit is how we know them...are they showing forth the love of God?

Sin as a lifestyle is proof that you are pushing the Spirit out of your life and rejecting God. Whether you were a child of God or not, wickedness leads to spiritual death.

So, in other words, you are pushing the Spirit out of your life when you react in the flesh? What if you are so self-righteous you don't see how carnal you're being. What if you don't take godly counsel and continue to boast in your ability to follow the commandments of God? Not having faith that God is able to keep His own is sin, Joe. :yes

Israel entered not in because of UNBELIEF. We have believed unto salvation. They did not.

Yes, WE did. I'm glad you acknowledged the idea of the "faith OF Jesus" is misplaced. Progress is being made.

Wrong, our believing unto salvation does not deny we are justified by the faith of Christ. His faith is imparted to us along with His righteousness. You do remember the prayer, "help my unbelief", don't you?

All are invited to the feast..those who obey by believing are given access to the feast. They need to learn their table manners, but they won't be thrown out because they spill a drink or use the wrong fork.

Have you read the Gospels? Are some who were invited tossed out on their keaster???

The Lord draws all men...all are invited. Some just refuse to enter into the rest and continue to try and be "good enough" and "obedient enough" to help Jesus out with their own salvation.

Actually, it's a robe of righteousness that Christ drapes over our shoulders...

I'm not interested in hearing this, since you have ignored my numerous pleas to prove it and it has been disproven without comment. Just repeating it is boring me.

I certainly wouldn't want to bore you. ;)

Please note, though, if you aren't fully persuaded that, what He had promised, He is able to perform, then His righteousness will NOT be imputed to you. You might want to keep that in mind.

And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

 

[glorydaz]

Fruit naturally follows the believer. No one is saying otherwise.

Clearly, everyone is saying otherwise!!!!

We have already discussed in James a very nice example of fruit not following forth from believers... It is called "dead faith", faith nonetheless.

The conveyor belt mentality is broken.

Paul gives an outstanding example of how poorly your idea works:

though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 1 Cor 13:2

Your mentality would suggest that this tremendous faith WILL provide a tremendous fruit. Paul calls it NOTHING. YOU HEAR ME???? NOTHING.

Those seeking the truth will admit that works do not necessarily follow faith.
Those interested in saving their own preconceived notions will ignore the Bible here...

Oh, so God ordaining something isn't good enough?

James was talking to hypocrites who claim a faith they do not have.
Dead faith means no Life. No life means no indwelling Holy Spirit.
Faith "nonetheless"? Really? The faith the devils have is faith "nonetheless"?

No, you're confused about what dead faith is. If you understood that the Holy Spirit's fruit included faith, you'd know that our faith comes from Jesus Christ when we are placed IN HIM.


PS...you don't have to yell, Joe. That is not showing forth the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Adullam]

Yes, I believe that a son of God can 'backslide' to such an extent that he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. An example is found in Heb 6: 4-8

If we walk in the Spirit (we've been bought and paid for...we have a circumcised heart, we're indwelt by the Spirit of God) and God keeps us from falling WE MUST ALSO GUARD OURSELVES LEST WE FALL.

God can do all you suggest and more - but the luxury of time is not on our side -however long or short our lifetime is(?) There are so many warnings throughout scripture 'you have no excuse, oh man, whoever you are, what a man sows so shall he reap.' The following is an example of God engineering our circumstances. If you live according to the flesh you will die, if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the flesh you will live.

Gd, you do well to remember God's mercy, and you do. Have you any comment about 'God's severity' in Roms 11?

As Paul explains in chapter 4 of Hebrews, the Jews failed to enter into God's rest because of UNBELIEF.

Those who need fear are those who fail to enter into the rest. They failed because of unbelief. We which have believed do enter into rest.

1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

To enter into this rest...we MUST cease from our own works. All works and efforts....all fear and doubt. Let us labour to enter into that rest...we strive to enter into the kingdom and then we rest. Those who fail to enter into that rest are not regenerated...are not born of God.

8For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

We have confidence, therefore, in the promises of God, and come boldly before the throne of grace.
[quote:e00az953] 16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Those "once enlightened", and "have tasted of the heavenly gift", and were made "partakers of the Holy Ghost", and have "tasted the good word of God" are those who have heard the gospel message, but have NOT entered into the rest. The Jews were led by the Spirit in the wiLderness, they were partakers of the manna and the water from the rock, but they fell back and did not enter into the rest. They failed to enter into the Promised Land because of UNBELIEF. The pews are filled with those who have not ceased from their own works...they are still striving to enter into the kingdom. They're like the pharisees who trusted in themselves for salvation. That's not faith....it's fear and doubt. The Jews who heard the Gospel, did not believe they were to cease from their works, which is why Paul speaks of the need to go back to the basics of the Gospel message.

Paul says it is impossible for those who fall back to their old beliefs of salvation by works to be renewed again unto repentance. Repentance is turning TO the Lord and FROM their reliance on self. The Hebrews Paul is addressing, were in danger of crucifying the Lord all over again because they were unwilling to enter into the rest that only comes by faith. They had faith in themselves...not God.

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Now Paul's word of encouragement....this addressed to those who HAVE entered into the rest. The believers...not those who have merely tasted. Even though I speak of such things, says Paul, I am confident because of the things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. What accompanies salvation? POWER...THE POWER OF GOD TO SAVE AND TO KEEP THOSE WHO ARE HIS. If you haven't entered into the REST, you have not ceased from your own efforts. You have tasted, but not entered in.

9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

"We must guard ourselves lest we fall". I'm sorry, but that is a very sad commentary on the assurance we are to have in Christ. We should examine our heart and see if we have truly entered into God's rest. When we have, we have no doubt, and we rely solely on Jesus...not on ourselves....we cease from our own efforts and strength and trust in Him.

Have we seen the light? Does the light live in us? Then there is no occasion of stumbling...

He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. 11But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

Those who fall away...those who went out from us....were not of us. Those who are born of God would...NO DOUBT have continued. NO DOUBT. Yes, people need to make sure their calling and election is sure. But after we enter in, we should cease from striving, we are to rest and trust in the power of God to keep us. If we can't do that, we don't have faith.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Romans 8 is talking about the natural man who is in the flesh...they will not have life. The spiritual man is indwelt with the Holy Spirit...he is subject to the Law of the Spirit of Life. As I've explained...the spiritual man still walks in the flesh (more than many will admit), but he LIVES in the Spirit.

Romans 11 is speaking of national Israel...who were cut off for unbelief, and the Gentiles (all gentiles) who will also be cut off for unbelief. He is not speaking of individual believers...some Jews were not cut off because they believe. Some gentiles will not be cut off because they believe. Believing equals life. Once again, the natural man and the spiritual man. The natural man does NOT have the Holy Spirit abiding in him. The spiritual man DOES, and he has eternal life.[/quote:e00az953]


A true Christian has 2 operating systems he can choose from. The Spirit or the flesh. He can be filled with the Spirit, or walk as any other man in the futility of his own mind. The spiritual walk is a blameless walk according to the power of God. The type of surrender that this requires is far beyond what men expect. Very few have ever experienced this supernatural walk. Very few are holy. Men are rather indoctrinated into believing that they are already there in spite of the sin in their lives. But there is no sin in a spiritual walk. Jesus Christ does not sin through the disciple. We need to be led away from reliance on Christ in order to sin.

So many follow Christ in their own capacities and call this spiritual. They are taught this. This is not the case of course. But men try so hard to be biblically correct and this without investigating the cost of such a walk. There is so much assumption and presumption going on in the name of Christianity. Confusion reigns in the truly honest....or else presumption reigns in the truly deceived.

But we also have a part to play. We must be humble. Christ will not be humble for us. We must be wise. Christ will not make decisions for us...unless we surrender all to Him.

Most Christians by far seek to be influenced by the Spirit...without the fulness of divine control. There are many degrees of this influence. This influence can save one, when this influence is ACTED upon. Therefore one does not need be perfect in Christ in order to be saved.

We will therefore simply be judged by our obedience.

 

[glorydaz]

Salvation IS contingent on our walk. We have no inherent rights before God. Neither did the Jewish nation before us. God did not change and become soft since then. We still have to be doers of the word to be justified. One cannot abide in Christ AND walk in disobedience. Whether or not the disobedient claim to be saved or not is irrelevent. Obedience is the standard...grace is the means to obtain that obedience. God has no favourites and does not respect our sinful natures. He has no favourite sins as we have (if we are disobedient). A person is not saved through belief....nor is a person saved if they "believe" they are. I believe therefore I am???? This is one of the fables that moderns have traded for the truth. Claiming greatness or acceptance for oneself is incongruent with the type of humility that obtains justification before God. This should be evident. As it is written...

People will refuse to listen to the truth and turn to myths. 2 Tim. 4:4

You do realize that "doers" must obey every point and cannot fail in even one, don't you? If you believe salvation is contingent on our obedience to the commandments, then you are still under the law, and not under grace at all. Our salvation is not based on our walk or our obedience, but on Christ's obedience on the cross. A person is most certainly saved by believing...it is the only way man can be saved. There will be many who say, "Didn't I do great works in your name...didn't I obey all the commandments and laws?" The Lord will say, "I never knew you." Why? Because all men sin and come short of the glory of God.

 

[Drew]

You do realize that "doers" must obey every point and cannot fail in even one, don't you?

You seem to think that utlimate justification by good works is basically impossible since even one slip-up disqualifies you.

I suggest that you will not be able to provide an actaul scriptural defence for this, if this is indeed what you believe.

I challenge you to provide any text whatsoever that suggests that the "standard" for any good works judgement is "perfection".

 

[glorydaz]

Check this out....and please pay attention...

19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

If a brother Christian....yes a Christian...wanders from the truth....he will die there unless freshly saved from the evil he is doing. The truth is, that we all need to be saved many times. No one has a perfect walk after the initial saving grace is given. How many times did God save Israel in the desert...just once??? Read Psalm 107.

If a righteous person leaves his righteousness to do what is evil...then all the former righteousness he has done will be forgotten and he will die in his sin. The other side of the coin is...when a wicked person forsakes his wickedness and does what is right, then all the former evil will be forgotten and he will live for his repentance. You can't have one reality without the other. There is no..."heads I win tails you lose" in the kingdom of God. God's ways are equal. Read Ez. chaper 18

Salvation is a process!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Uh oh...that goes against what Paul tells us in Heb. You can't have it both ways, brother.

First, we aren't justified by our righteousness...if that were the case, none would be saved. Here, Paul totally refutes the idea of being saved and lost and saved again. It is impossible. Which is why he isn't speaking of someone who is crucified and raised with Christ.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If one wanders away from the truth...let's look at that.

If we aren't being chastened by the Lord, we are ba*tards and not sons.
When we "wander away", we have the Good Shepherd with His rod and staff to keep us in line.

For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ba*tards, and not sons.

If we heed not the scourging, what then?
We see here...many sicken and die, and many sleep (die)...we are chastened that we NOT BE CONDEMNED WITH THE WORLD. Yes, God will cause us to sicken and die, but we do not lose our eternal salvation. We no longer come under condemnation when we have been born of God.

Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Israel was "saved" as a nation from their enemies, but they were not saved by grace through faith unto eternal life. They did not enter into God's rest. Therefore, you can not use them as an example of saving faith and newness of life.

 

[Adullam]

Check this out....and please pay attention...

19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

If a brother Christian....yes a Christian...wanders from the truth....he will die there unless freshly saved from the evil he is doing. The truth is, that we all need to be saved many times. No one has a perfect walk after the initial saving grace is given. How many times did God save Israel in the desert...just once??? Read Psalm 107.

If a righteous person leaves his righteousness to do what is evil...then all the former righteousness he has done will be forgotten and he will die in his sin. The other side of the coin is...when a wicked person forsakes his wickedness and does what is right, then all the former evil will be forgotten and he will live for his repentance. You can't have one reality without the other. There is no..."heads I win tails you lose" in the kingdom of God. God's ways are equal. Read Ez. chaper 18

Salvation is a process!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Uh oh...that goes against what Paul tells us in Heb. You can't have it both ways, brother.

First, we aren't justified by our righteousness...if that were the case, none would be saved. Here, Paul totally refutes the idea of being saved and lost and saved again. It is impossible. Which is why he isn't speaking of someone who is crucified and raised with Christ.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If one wanders away from the truth...let's look at that.

If we aren't being chastened by the Lord, we are ba*tards and not sons.
When we "wander away", we have the Good Shepherd with His rod and staff to keep us in line.
[quote="Hebrews 12:6-8":2au492t2] For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ba*tards, and not sons.

If we heed not the scourging, what then?
We see here...many sicken and die, and many sleep (die)...we are chastened that we NOT BE CONDEMNED WITH THE WORLD. Yes, God will cause us to sicken and die, but we do not lose our eternal salvation. We no longer come under condemnation when we have been born of God.

Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Israel was "saved" as a nation from their enemies, but they were not saved by grace through faith unto eternal life. They did not enter into God's rest. Therefore, you can not use them as an example of saving faith and newness of life.[/quote:2au492t2]


So backsliders were never saved in the first place.....etc etc....I know the drill.

To understand the bible one must hold up both ends of what we could call the dialectic....2 seemingly contradictory statements that make up the truth in reality.

Even simple logic tells us that a person who falls in the water and needs rescuing may need further rescuing if he falls again into the water. He does not become immune to drowning by being saved from it...he is simply saved at that time. The modern position is that once you are saved once from drowning, then that one can never drown again. He can live under the sea like the fishes and be immune from death. This fable makes a mockery of Christ's work. It is a fantasy.

We are to turn, rather away from death and seek life. IF we get entangled again in the world, we will need to be delivered from our state. The first state to be delivered from is the evangelical stupor that makes the cross of no effect by claiming disobedient unconditional salvation for the rich and spoiled.

 

[glorydaz]

No. The truth is that neither of you can afford to answer the question since it would force you to face the fact that your position simply cannot be squared with what Paul actually writes. Here is the text again:

11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,...

In verse 11, Paul identifies the person he is talking to here - it is the person who has the Spirit in Him. And Paul goes on to assert that Gods will give life to that person's mortal body. Your position cannot have Paul speaking to believers only, so you choose to ignore the clear implication of the sentence - that Paul is addressing believers. In 12 and 13 Paul is clearly continuing his same discourse to the believer - telling him that he will get life - eternal life obviously - if he walks in the Spirit.

Paul's statement is fatal to your position. So what do you do? You somehow insist that Paul cannot be talking to the believers only since - according to you - the believer is not capable of lapsing into the old nature.

Yet clearly Paul disagrees - there is no legitimate to read the above text as a block of English text in a manner that is consistent with what you are saying.

This, of course, is why neither you nor LaCrum will answer the question. I posed the question in such a way that it forces you (and LaCrum) to face the impossibility of your postion. You cannot answer the question because you know full well, or should know full well, that Paul is addressing believers and believers only.

So you don't answer. Well, that is your right.

Paul has already said, "Ye are not in the flesh if the Spirit of God dwell in you". It can't get any plainer than that. Believers LIVE in the Spirit. The Holy Spirit abides in the believer, and we abide in Christ. We are under the LAW of the SPIRIT OF LIFE. Your willful disregard of everything Paul has said up to this point, and afterwards, is simply par for the course with you, Drew. You thrive on taking verses out of their context to promote a doctrine of works. You can deny that's what you're doing, but you prove it when you take a verse such as this and claim believers will lose their salvation if they fail to keep themselves. Keeping yourself is the FLESH. Keeping yourself is the ultimate expression of the natural man.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

If you live in the flesh, your citizenship is the world. If you're born of God, your citizenship is in heaven. We are in the world, but not "of the world". Paul is discussing the natural man and the spiritual man...you insist at this particular point of his talk he is strictly addressing believers. He is teaching about the natural man, living according to the flesh, and the spiritual man living according to the Spirit. He is NOT talking about the spiritual man sliding into perdition by following his old sin nature. If that was the case, then none would be saved. I can guarantee you, Drew, that you do NOT walk after the Spirit a great deal of the time. You're testy and opinionated. You show a great deal of frustration and even anger...often making false charges and stirring up contention. You'd better pray Paul isn't saying what you claim.

I don't say this to pick on you, Drew...all Christians are in the process of denying self. Leaning on one's own understanding is walking in the flesh. Lack of humility is walking in the flesh. The list is long, and pride, alone, keeps people from admitting they walk in the flesh more often than they walk in the Spirit. Basically, you're condemning yourself by your interpretation of what Paul is saying in this verse. As long as we are in this body, we will have to battle the pull of the flesh.

Thank the Lord, our salvation is not contingent on how well we perform. We're called to rest...it's only as we surrender to the Holy Spirit, that we can have a renewed mind. We can't renew our own mind, and we aren't given life until we "believe" He is able to complete the work He began in us.

 

[glorydaz]

To enter into this rest...we MUST cease from our own works. All works and efforts....all fear and doubt.

Do nothing. Pitiful. :verysad

THIS is what you get from the countless "Turn to me" "seek me out", "Repent of your sins" "be humble" and the numerous Gospel statements about Christ DEMANDING that we DO something, like repent, believe, forgive, love???

Sheer Lunacy... :crazy

Is it a wonder that you tell us "do nothing"??? Because in your mind, sanctification is USELESS. There is no need for it. So take Luther's advice, sin all the more, commit rape and murder, but don't worry, God can't see you.

What a piece of work. Literally...

If your understanding of "rest" means to "do nothing" then I'm not in the least surprised you are still striving to enter into the kingdom. Keep striving, Joe, maybe someday you'll actually arrive. It's only when we "do nothing" that Christ can "do" through us. We wait upon His good pleasure. We don't "love" others, we allow the love of God to shine through us. We stop that love by trusting in our flesh...we quench the Spirit with our "self".

For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

What kind of rest do you have? You don't even have assurance of salvation...you're still striving to enter in. We strive to enter in, and then we actually enter and have rest for our souls, because we are confident He is able to keep us. We trust in Him to conform us into His image. If you think it's up to you, then you're simply trusting in yourself instead of God.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

[yepimonfire]

In this thread, I will try to make an exceedingly careful argument as to why Ephesians 2:8-9 does not deny ultimate justification by good works. People in other threads have been ignoring arguments about this and I am quite convinced that they are intentionally screening arguments that would challenge their position on how we are ultimately saved. The material in this thread should give these evaders “no place to hideâ€. However, let the reader not take my word for this. Let the reader consider the arguments I put forward and carefully watch how these arguments are ignored and / or side-stepped. Because I am 99 % certain that this is indeed what will happen.

Here is the text in context:

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Now if you have read this text carefully, you may already have discerned what “works†Paul is really talking about in verse 9. Please consider reading future posts.

bit late to this thread but...... christ mentioned several times "bear fruit in keeping with repentance"

 

[Adullam]

There is an amazing heresy afoot that claims that obedience is irrelevent for salvation. I never thought I'd live to see this.

 

[LaCrum]

1 John 2
1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.
3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

1) Christ speaks in our (believer’s) defense to the Father if we sin (we will continue to sin the rest of our lives), because he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
2) We have the assurance that we are in Christ if we obey his commandments, because it is impossible to walk as Jesus did without the power of the Holy Spirit.

So to sum it up, if you claim you are a Christian, it will be known to you and others by the fruits you produce. If you are not producing fruits, you need to turn back to Christ to be assured of your salvation.

 

[glorydaz]

A true Christian has 2 operating systems he can choose from. The Spirit or the flesh. He can be filled with the Spirit, or walk as any other man in the futility of his own mind. The spiritual walk is a blameless walk according to the power of God. The type of surrender that this requires is far beyond what men expect. Very few have ever experienced this supernatural walk. Very few are holy. Men are rather indoctrinated into believing that they are already there in spite of the sin in their lives. But there is no sin in a spiritual walk. Jesus Christ does not sin through the disciple. We need to be led away from reliance on Christ in order to sin.

So many follow Christ in their own capacities and call this spiritual. They are taught this. This is not the case of course. But men try so hard to be biblically correct and this without investigating the cost of such a walk. There is so much assumption and presumption going on in the name of Christianity. Confusion reigns in the truly honest....or else presumption reigns in the truly deceived.

But we also have a part to play. We must be humble. Christ will not be humble for us. We must be wise. Christ will not make decisions for us...unless we surrender all to Him.

Most Christians by far seek to be influenced by the Spirit...without the fulness of divine control. There are many degrees of this influence. This influence can save one, when this influence is ACTED upon. Therefore one does not need be perfect in Christ in order to be saved.

We will therefore simply be judged by our obedience.

I can agree with most of what you say. The process of being sanctified lasts our entire lifetime.
We all start out as babes in Christ.

I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

We have lived our entire life under the bondage of sin, and the flesh has always had it's say up until the time we're regenerated and given a new heart. We don't immediately become mature in the Lord (perfect as Paul uses the word). But, all our sins have been forgiven.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

"Knowing God" is the mark of a believer. To know Him is to love Him. It comes with the territory. The Gospel is the power of salvation, and when we're born of God, we are filled with the POWER of the Holy Spirit. We're chastened as sons when we stray....chastened sorely until we return. If we don't return, we were never His to begin with. Those who KNOW God listen to His voice. Those who don't know Him, cannot love Him.

I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. 14I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

We are "judged" righteous if we are in Christ.
We are judged unrighteous if we are not.

We are rewarded according to our obedience to Him.

Notice, there is nothing in this verse about being saved unless we walk in the flesh...there is nothing about how well we obey. There are no if's, and's or but's that anyone can say refers to our failing to live up to some particular standard of mortal and venial sins. When we read some particular verse as being a condition to salvation, it's being read incorrectly. Christ did the work on the cross, we either believe it's His work or we can add ourselves into the mix. It's a free gift so that throughout the ages to come, God will receive all the glory.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[Drew]

bit late to this thread but...... christ mentioned several times "bear fruit in keeping with repentance"

Hi: Indeed, Jesus does say this. I am not sure what your point is. Please explain.

 

[Drew]

Hello LaCrum. Please answer these questions that I have already posed to you:

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

Question 1: To whom is Paul speaking?

Drew's answer: To Christian believers
LaCrum answer: Please insert your answer here

Question 2: Verse 13 promises something to those who put to death the misdeeds of the body through the Spirit. What is it that is promised to such people? (Remember unless you want to toss a hand grenade into the sentence, we have Paul promising something to, yes, those who put to death the misdeeds of the body through the Spirit).

Drew's answer: Eternal life (escaping from the mortality of the body)
LaCrum answer: Please insert your answer here

Now I admit - I cheated, copying my answers directly from Paul.