The Mangling of Ephesians 2:8-9

[glorydaz]

Those who "live after" the flesh are unbelievers. The Spirit is "sanctifying" the believer...it's through His power and His leading that the deeds of the body are brought under subjection.

"Romans 8:13" For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Not according to Scriptures, such as James 1-2.

Those who have a dead faith still are considered "believers". "Romans" is clearly written to a community of believers. It is the quality of their faith that is in question here, the believers who are walking in the flesh. Men don't go from "believers" to "unbelievers" when they tell a white lie or envy someone else's car... Believers who live after the flesh will die, that is Paul's clear statement. He repeats this to the Corinthians, the Hebrews, and the Galatians... Naturally, John says the same thing, as does Peter.

And of course, this brings up the question about OSAS and falling away and becoming an unbeliever. You seem to be contradicting that doctrine, now, as ANY sin is now "proof" that you never WERE a believer in the first place. Hardly a consoling doctrine - I must be absolutely perfect in life, otherwise, I am now an unbeliever and was just kidding myself and was never a believer to begin with...

As usual, Joe, you have mistated what I've said. People don't go from being believers to unbelievers when they sin, period. Whether it be a "white lie" or adultery...just ask David. Those who LIVE after the flesh are unbelievers. Those who LIVE after the Spirit are believers. Believers are under the LAW of the Spirit of LIFE. It's a law of God...man isn't the one who makes the rules.

Babes in Christ walk after the flesh more than the mature man does, but they do not lose their salvation because of it. They are chastened and led into maturity. Sin is not a proof of anything other than one's maturity in the Lord. First we overcome obvious sins, then we overcome the sins that are hidden to all but God. It's a process...that does not affect the salvation of those born of God. It most certainly affects one's walk and one's fellowship with God, but the Lord is faithful to chasten us and lead us into a closer walk with Him. We're a work in progress...some progress at a faster rate than others, but if we're born of God we are sons of God, and nothing can yank us out of His hand. A disobedient child is not thrown into outer darkness because he isn't living the life you, or anyone else, thinks he should be living. It's the work of the Holy Spirit and He is the One responsible for our sanctification. And, it's the Father's will that the Son will lose NONE the Father has given.

 

[stranger]

Hi glorydaz,

OK, we agree that a Christian can sin, obviously. Scripture is full of admonitions not to!

You spent a great deal of effort in saying that the norm for the Christian life is to walk in the Spirit. I entirely agree - we are all saying yes to that.

So let's leave this and consider the case when a Christian sins:

Q1. When a Christian sins is he walking in the Spirit?

Q2. When a Christian sins is he walking in the flesh?

Q3. Is sin walking in the flesh?

As you suggested here is the verse before and the verse after!

Romans 8:12-14
So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

 

[stranger]

Christians can walk in the flesh though they SHOULD walk in the Spirit. Here is how it happens. It is accepted that Christians sin. When this happens I believe a Christian is walking in the flesh. S/he has stopped walking in the Spirit. Here is a short proof, though I suspect most Christians have all the proof they need from their own expereince of sin.

Paul lists some deeds (or fruit) of the flesh.

Gal 5:19-21
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

There is often a time interval between committing a sin, confession and repentance leading to a restoration through Christ to walking in the Spirit. This could be almost immediate, or it could take hours, days, weeks, months, years or even a lifetime however long or short that is. It is called backsliding - a backslider is on the path to death. As Paul says 'those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.'

Let's suppose that it all started with a Christian forum dispute, which lead to dissensions, factions, strife and outbursts of anger ie sin against neighbour and God. Now if these are deeds of the flesh it follows that the Christian has actually walked in the flesh - faith without (good) works is dead. Chances are the types of fruit will be reminiscent of the former walk in the flesh before s/he became a believer.

Take care brothers and sisters!

 

[Drew]

I have answered it....I simply don't play "fill in the blank" games.

No, you have not answered it. Or more specifically, you have given a clearly specious argument as to how those "who walk according to the flesh cannot be believers when it is patently clear that the text of Paul's argument clearly shows that he is directing his remarks about walking in the flesh to believers:

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

I will not tire of showing the text again and again. Let's be clear: there is no (legitimate) way to read this text as anything other than a warning / promise directed to believers and believers only.

It is probably no co-incidence that LaCrum has not anwered this question either. To directly answer the question would entail an admission that Paul is indeed addressing his remarks to believers and telling them what the text clearly says - believers get life by walking in the Spirit.

Why do refuse to answer the question as posed gd? It is a perfectly legitimate question - Paul is clearly directing his remarks to some group - those he calls "brothers". And he clearly makes statements about the consequences of walking in sin and walking in the Spirit.

 

[francisdesales]

Those who have a dead faith still are considered "believers". "Romans" is clearly written to a community of believers. It is the quality of their faith that is in question here, the believers who are walking in the flesh. Men don't go from "believers" to "unbelievers" when they tell a white lie or envy someone else's car... Believers who live after the flesh will die, that is Paul's clear statement. He repeats this to the Corinthians, the Hebrews, and the Galatians... Naturally, John says the same thing, as does Peter.

And of course, this brings up the question about OSAS and falling away and becoming an unbeliever. You seem to be contradicting that doctrine, now, as ANY sin is now "proof" that you never WERE a believer in the first place. Hardly a consoling doctrine - I must be absolutely perfect in life, otherwise, I am now an unbeliever and was just kidding myself and was never a believer to begin with...

As usual, Joe, you have mistated what I've said. People don't go from being believers to unbelievers when they sin, period. Whether it be a "white lie" or adultery...just ask David. Those who LIVE after the flesh are unbelievers. Those who LIVE after the Spirit are believers. Believers are under the LAW of the Spirit of LIFE. It's a law of God...man isn't the one who makes the rules.

As usual? Quite a grand overstatement, don't you think?

If I have mis-stated what you have said, the blame is yours, since I am repeating what you have said, and are saying yet again...

Those who "live after" the flesh are unbelievers.

Your example doesn't help, either, since David also "lived after the flesh", quite clearly, for some time. He then repented and then walked in the ways of the Spirit. Was not David ALWAYS a believer in God? Can you tell me where David said He no longer believed in God? Does the bible tell us that David stopped believing in God when he sent Uriah to his death or had sex with Bethsheba???

If I am mis-stating you, can I be blamed, GD??? Say what you mean.

When I sin, according to you, I become an unbeliever. Thus, to be a believer, I must be perfect and never "live after" the flesh... The conclusion is clear. One must be perfect to remain a believer!

Babes in Christ walk after the flesh more than the mature man does, but they do not lose their salvation because of it.

Who said anything about "salvation"? We are talking about whether one is a believer or an unbeliever...

It is my contention that a person remains a believer, EVEN IF they sin occasionally. Romans 6 is speaking about a LIFESTYLE of sin, not individual acts. Thus, we cannot place the term "unbeliever" on someone who occasionally walks after the flesh. As i noted, James did not make this claim, either. His distinction between dead faith and living faith STILL recognized that they were ALL believers in God! Even the devil believes there is a God, so the term "unbelievers" is incorrectly applied by you here.

If I may, perhaps we can say that a person walking after the flesh has a "dead faith", rather than call them an "unbeliever".

Let's call an unbeliever a person who does not believe in God.
Let's call a believer walking after the ways of the flesh a person with a dead faith.

OK?

Sin is not a proof of anything other than one's maturity in the Lord.

Sin is proof that the Lord is not within you! According to the bible and 1 John, that is the evidence that Christ is in us - by our obedience to the Commandments, specifically, the Royal Command to Love.

A disobedient child is not thrown into outer darkness because he isn't living the life you, or anyone else, thinks he should be living.

Eventually, that is what God has done over and over, in the OT. the parables that Jesus relates on the Kingdom are similar. Those invited to the Feast are shut out, tossed into the darkness, where there will a gnashing of teeth. Israel was a disobedient child, and many of them were indeed left in the darkness. Only those who repented were considered part of the remnant.

It's the work of the Holy Spirit and He is the One responsible for our sanctification. And, it's the Father's will that the Son will lose NONE the Father has given.

You haven't told me yet the purpose of this sanctification, if I am already covered with a perfect blanket of righteousness that is not mine. Am I going to provide a better righteousness so I don't need the blanket anymore? I thought God doesn't view me under this blanket?

You need to address this, if you want to have some sort of respectability here...

 

[Adullam]

Good works are not the same as works of the law. What the bible calls good is....good! These works justify the doer of them. However, dead works that are performed by those that seek justification do not justify.

Are hearers of the law justified or the doers of the law justified? Most would disagree with the word and say that doing good works is pointless. This then is the fable that men have turned to in these last days among they that believe we can remain unfruitful and somehow be saved.

Rather salvation is a process of continued obedience until the end. God will prove us and refine us if we endure.

 

[francisdesales]

Good works are not the same as works of the law. What the bible calls good is....good! These works justify the doer of them. However, dead works that are performed by those that seek justification do not justify.

Are hearers of the law justified or the doers of the law justified? Most would disagree with the word and say that doing good works is pointless. This then is the fable that men have turned to in these last days among they that believe we can remain unfruitful and somehow be saved.

Rather salvation is a process of continued obedience until the end. God will prove us and refine us if we endure.

Agreed.

 

[glorydaz]

Hi glorydaz,

OK, we agree that a Christian can sin, obviously. Scripture is full of admonitions not to!

You spent a great deal of effort in saying that the norm for the Christian life is to walk in the Spirit. I entirely agree - we are all saying yes to that.

So let's leave this and consider the case when a Christian sins:

Q1. When a Christian sins is he walking in the Spirit?

Q2. When a Christian sins is he walking in the flesh?

Q3. Is sin walking in the flesh?

As you suggested here is the verse before and the verse after!

Romans 8:12-14
So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Q1...No, he is "walking" in the flesh. He is LIVING in the Spirit, though.

Q2...Yes, but he is not being governed by the Spirit; he is living under the Law of the Spirit of Life. The Law of Life means we've passed from death unto life...born of God. We are no longer under the bondage satan always held over us. Neither sin nor death has dominion over us any longer (our earthen body may go to ground, but our place is seated with Christ in heavenly places). Dominion speaks of rulership. We are ruled by the Spirit. He leads, guides, engineers our circumstances, and chastens us with the rod of correction. We may not realize we're ruled as we go on our merry way through life, but we are being perfected under His hand. We LIVE under the King's reign, and the Holy Spirit holds the rein.

Q3...Yes, but all men sin and come short of the glory of God.

So, when a Christian sins, he is walking in the flesh....he is not governed by the flesh, or LIVING in the flesh (for sin has no more dominion over us); he is merely listening to his flesh...his old man, his old sinful nature. All believers still walk in the flesh at various times, and in various ways. If anyone denies that, he is only fooling himself, because it's quite obvious to other believers. There is no hiding the flesh. It comes out in irritation, pride, self-will, and every other way you can think of.

The key here is the word LIFE. We do not LIVE after the flesh once we're born of the Spirit. The flesh lusts against the spirit, but the Spirit does not lust...it controls and fills us with LIFE. When a believer follows after the flesh, he is immature and in need of great direction and chastisement from the Holy Spirit. The more we're chastened and led by the Spirit, the more mature (perfect, as Paul calls it), and the more obedient we become. We are fathers and not children any longer.

Does that mean that when Paul says those who "live after the flesh, will die" are believers and in danger of losing LIFE if they follow the flesh a little too much...or a lot too much...(who decides that one?) Sons who are under the LAW of the Spirit of LIFE? No, that verse is being misunderstood, as I see it, for if it was saying what many claim, then none could have life. All men sin and come short of the glory of God. None walk wholly in the spirit. We are "soulish" when we walk in the flesh...we are walking according to our will, mind, and emotions. The Holy Spirit's work is to sanctify us...mortify the flesh in us, crucify the flesh in us, renew our minds, and bring our wills into submission. We LIVE after the Spirit...even when we listen to our natural reasoning instead of the leading of the Spirit. We live after the Spirit because the Spirit has given us LIFE.

Yes, it is our obligation to deny self and follow the Spirit's leading.

Whether someone is "in the flesh", or "in the Spirit" is dependant on whether they have the Spirit of God dwelling in them. Those who do, have LIFE already. Whether we sin or whether we listen to our flesh all day long, doesn't change the fact that we have LIFE. We believed unto life.... and Christ obeyed unto death for us

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Why are we debtors? Because we have been bought with a price. We owe the flesh nothing because Christ defeated sin at the cross, and he overcame death at His resurrection. We are free from the power of sin, but we forget that quite often.

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Paul is not saying "ye" specifically to the believer. He is addressing the entire congregation, to every hearer of his words. He is reiterating what he's already explained in depth. Those who LIVE after the flesh will die (natural man), those who "through the Spirit" are being "conformed", transformed, chastened, learning to deny self, being brought under submission, being convicted of sin...being santified, they shall live.

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of
the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Sorry this is so long, stranger. I just figure you give people a fair listen, and I might as well make my case as clearly as possible. Anyway....I can't help it...I love Romans.

 

[glorydaz]

Faith without works is a dead faith. Hello Stranger, it's MTAA.

Dead faith is faith without the Spirit of life.
Dead faith is what the devils have...what the natural man has.
Dead faith is unable to produce works acceptable to God.

The works that are produced as "fruit " can only come from true faith...a faith that brings eternal life along with it. Those good works are a result of faith...a natural consequence for believers as God has ordained we should walk in them.

So, yes, faith without works is dead...it's the faith of devils and unregenerate man. It's the "faith" of hypocrites, which is who James is talking about.

 

[glorydaz]

Christians can walk in the flesh though they SHOULD walk in the Spirit. Here is how it happens. It is accepted that Christians sin. When this happens I believe a Christian is walking in the flesh. S/he has stopped walking in the Spirit. Here is a short proof, though I suspect most Christians have all the proof they need from their own expereince of sin.

Paul lists some deeds (or fruit) of the flesh.

Gal 5:19-21
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

There is often a time interval between committing a sin, confession and repentance leading to a restoration through Christ to walking in the Spirit. This could be almost immediate, or it could take hours, days, weeks, months, years or even a lifetime however long or short that is. It is called backsliding - a backslider is on the path to death. As Paul says 'those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.'

Let's suppose that it all started with a Christian forum dispute, which lead to dissensions, factions, strife and outbursts of anger ie sin against neighbour and God. Now if these are deeds of the flesh it follows that the Christian has actually walked in the flesh - faith without (good) works is dead. Chances are the types of fruit will be reminiscent of the former walk in the flesh before s/he became a believer.

Take care brothers and sisters!

Ah, so you believe a son of God can backslide his way right back into perdition? What about the power of God to keep all those he's given the Son? We've been bought and paid for...we have a circumcised heart, we're indwelt by the Spirit of God, but God is unable to keep us from falling? God can't engineer our circumstances and beat us with a rod of correction or wait patiently until we've finished wallowing in the mire and suffering all the natural consequences of being out of fellowship with God? He'll just let us slip out of His hand? No, I see too many promises to succumb to doubt about the keeping power of Almighty God.

But, I'll join you in the "take care". God can make our life hell on earth until we fix our eyes firmly upon Him. Disobedience doesn't mean we stop believing...it means we aren't being obedient. There is only one unpardonable sin..."walking" after flesh isn't it. The Spirit of Life keeps us free from the law of sin and death.

 

[glorydaz]

If I may, perhaps we can say that a person walking after the flesh has a "dead faith", rather than call them an "unbeliever".

Let's call an unbeliever a person who does not believe in God.
Let's call a believer walking after the ways of the flesh a person with a dead faith.

OK?

Sin is not a proof of anything other than one's maturity in the Lord.

Sin is proof that the Lord is not within you! According to the bible and 1 John, that is the evidence that Christ is in us - by our obedience to the Commandments, specifically, the Royal Command to Love.

A disobedient child is not thrown into outer darkness because he isn't living the life you, or anyone else, thinks he should be living.

Eventually, that is what God has done over and over, in the OT. the parables that Jesus relates on the Kingdom are similar. Those invited to the Feast are shut out, tossed into the darkness, where there will a gnashing of teeth. Israel was a disobedient child, and many of them were indeed left in the darkness. Only those who repented were considered part of the remnant.

It's the work of the Holy Spirit and He is the One responsible for our sanctification. And, it's the Father's will that the Son will lose NONE the Father has given.

You haven't told me yet the purpose of this sanctification, if I am already covered with a perfect blanket of righteousness that is not mine. Am I going to provide a better righteousness so I don't need the blanket anymore? I thought God doesn't view me under this blanket?

You need to address this, if you want to have some sort of respectability here...

I'm sorry, Joe, but my "respectability" is not my concern. I'm not out for the glory of man, so I speak the truth as I see it. Sin is not proof the Lord is not with you....whatever is not faith is sin, and all men sin, he who says he is without sin is a liar, and sin is coming short of the glory of God. Sin is proof of nothing, and all our sins are forgiven when we believe. Fruit is how we know them...are they showing forth the love of God?

Israel entered not in because of UNBELIEF. We have believed unto salvation. They did not.

All are invited to the feast..those who obey by believing are given access to the feast. They need to learn their table manners, but they won't be thrown out because they spill a drink or use the wrong fork.

Actually, it's a robe of righteousness that Christ drapes over our shoulders (or the helmet of salvation) when we believe. When we get in the door (Christ's righteousness provides the access), we can take off the robe and we'll be seen in all our filthy rags. Then the Holy Spirit begins His work of removing those rags ie our self-will, pride, fear and doubt, by a renewing of our minds and conforming us into the image of Christ. That's sanctification. God sees the robe and we're justified before Him. As men see the fruit of the Spirit being manifest in our lives, we're then justified before men ,for they can see the out-working of faith.

We know them by their fruit. God sees into our heart...man looks at the outward signs.

 

[glorydaz]

It is probably no co-incidence that LaCrum has not anwered this question either. To directly answer the question would entail an admission that Paul is indeed addressing his remarks to believers and telling them what the text clearly says - believers get life by walking in the Spirit.

She probably doesn't answer because you don't listen to anything we say. You act like you don't even read the responses...have you an ear to hear? Paul cannot be saying what you claim...he refutes it with every word in this entire chapter. You cannot claim he is addressing believers as if they LIVE in the flesh. He has already said those with the Holy Spirit abiding in them LIVE in the Spirit.

Paul is restating the facts, if you live after the flesh you will die. The natural man lives after the flesh.

Believers LIVE in the Spirit...they do not always follow after or walk after the Spirit, but they are under the LAW of the Spirit of Life. They are no longer under the domain of satan, and sin and death have no more dominion over them. Sin does not RULE us as it did...we are still in this body and the spirit ever wars against the flesh to bring it under submission. That does not mean we don't have life...we have been regenerated and given LIFE.

 

[glorydaz]

Good works are not the same as works of the law. What the bible calls good is....good! These works justify the doer of them. However, dead works that are performed by those that seek justification do not justify.

Are hearers of the law justified or the doers of the law justified? Most would disagree with the word and say that doing good works is pointless. This then is the fable that men have turned to in these last days among they that believe we can remain unfruitful and somehow be saved.

Rather salvation is a process of continued obedience until the end. God will prove us and refine us if we endure.

Fruit naturally follows the believer. No one is saying otherwise. It's a result of being justified and born of God. God has ordained that we should walk in good deeds. Good deeds aren't pointless. but they do not contribute to our salvation, they are a manifestation of our salvation.

Enduring to the end does not mean our salvation is contingent upon our walk. We are saved from many things...not just eternal death if we fail to run the race up to some certain standard. We are saved through tribulation, we are saved through adversity, we are saved from our enemies, and saved from the wrath of God. We run the race and we endure to receive the reward that has been promised to those who believe.

 

[stranger]

gd wrote:

Ah, so you believe a son of God can backslide his way right back into perdition?
What about the power of God to keep all those he's given the Son? We've been bought and paid for...we have a circumcised heart, we're indwelt by the Spirit of God, but God is unable to keep us from falling? God can't engineer our circumstances and beat us with a rod of correction or wait patiently until we've finished wallowing in the mire and suffering all the natural consequences of being out of fellowship with God? He'll just let us slip out of His hand? No, I see too many promises to succumb to doubt about the keeping power of Almighty God.

But, I'll join you in the "take care". God can make our life hell on earth until we fix our eyes firmly upon Him. Disobedience doesn't mean we stop believing...it means we aren't being obedient. There is only one unpardonable sin..."walking" after flesh isn't it. The Spirit of Life keeps us free from the law of sin and death.

Yes, I believe that a son of God can 'backslide' to such an extent that he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. An example is found in Heb 6: 4-8

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

What about the power of God to keep all those he's given the Son?

God's power to keep those he has given to His Son is manifested in those who walk in the Spirit.

We've been bought and paid for...we have a circumcised heart, we're indwelt by the Spirit of God, but God is unable to keep us from falling?

If we walk in the Spirit (we've been bought and paid for...we have a circumcised heart, we're indwelt by the Spirit of God) and God keeps us from falling WE MUST ALSO GUARD OURSELVES LEST WE FALL.

God can't engineer our circumstances and beat us with a rod of correction or wait patiently until we've finished wallowing in the mire and suffering all the natural consequences of being out of fellowship with God? He'll just let us slip out of His hand?

God can do all you suggest and more - but the luxury of time is not on our side -however long or short our lifetime is(?) There are so many warnings throughout scripture 'you have no excuse, oh man, whoever you are, what a man sows so shall he reap.' The following is an example of God engineering our circumstances. If you live according to the flesh you will die, if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the flesh you will live.

But, I'll join you in the "take care". God can make our life hell on earth until we fix our eyes firmly upon Him. Disobedience doesn't mean we stop believing...it means we aren't being obedient. There is only one unpardonable sin..."walking" after flesh isn't it. The Spirit of Life keeps us free from the law of sin and death.

Gd, you do well to remember God's mercy, and you do. Have you any comment about 'God's severity' in Roms 11?

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[stranger]

OSAS is refuted by Hebrew 6

Heb 6: 4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Eph 2:8-9 is mangled by the OSAS hermenuetic at every point in this discussion!

 

[francisdesales]

You need to address this, if you want to have some sort of respectability here...

I'm sorry, Joe, but my "respectability" is not my concern. I'm not out for the glory of man, so I speak the truth as I see it.

Then defend it and stop ignoring the problems with your scheme. It seems to me you are more concerned with protecting sola fide and alien righteousness then the truth of the Scriptures. A man concerned about the truth, like you CLAIM to be, will recognize when their current paradigm falls short. The Disciples were able to do that, when they saw their Master die on the cross. Their paradigm of a Messiah did not include death in such a matter. Did they live in denial, like you are? No, they were able to accept that their reading of Scriptures were incorrect.

Now, it is time you begin to do the same, if you are really after the truth, my friend.

Sin is not proof the Lord is not with you....whatever is not faith is sin, and all men sin, he who says he is without sin is a liar, and sin is coming short of the glory of God.

You fail to take into account the difference between A sin and a LIFE of sin. Again, I have said that God does not require absolute perfection, so why would I talk about God leaving me if I commit ONE minor (venial) sin??? John speaks about this in 1 John. No, we are not sinless - BUT - evidence of the Lord within us is our obedience to the commandments. A lifestyle of following the Lord from the heart is required OF US!

We fall short WITHOUT God. With God, we don't. We are seen as acceptable children, bumbling and stumbling, but loved just the same by our Perfect God.

Sin is proof of nothing, and all our sins are forgiven when we believe. Fruit is how we know them...are they showing forth the love of God?

Sin as a lifestyle is proof that you are pushing the Spirit out of your life and rejecting God. Whether you were a child of God or not, wickedness leads to spiritual death.

Israel entered not in because of UNBELIEF. We have believed unto salvation. They did not.

Yes, WE did. I'm glad you acknowledged the idea of the "faith OF Jesus" is misplaced. Progress is being made.

All are invited to the feast..those who obey by believing are given access to the feast. They need to learn their table manners, but they won't be thrown out because they spill a drink or use the wrong fork.

Have you read the Gospels? Are some who were invited tossed out on their keaster???

Actually, it's a robe of righteousness that Christ drapes over our shoulders...

I'm not interested in hearing this, since you have ignored my numerous pleas to prove it and it has been disproven without comment. Just repeating it is boring me.

 

[francisdesales]

Fruit naturally follows the believer. No one is saying otherwise.

Clearly, everyone is saying otherwise!!!!

We have already discussed in James a very nice example of fruit not following forth from believers... It is called "dead faith", faith nonetheless.

The conveyor belt mentality is broken.

Paul gives an outstanding example of how poorly your idea works:

though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 1 Cor 13:2

Your mentality would suggest that this tremendous faith WILL provide a tremendous fruit. Paul calls it NOTHING. YOU HEAR ME???? NOTHING.

Those seeking the truth will admit that works do not necessarily follow faith.
Those interested in saving their own preconceived notions will ignore the Bible here...

 

[stranger]

Hi glorydaz,

OK, we agree that a Christian can sin, obviously. Scripture is full of admonitions not to!

You spent a great deal of effort in saying that the norm for the Christian life is to walk in the Spirit. I entirely agree - we are all saying yes to that.

So let's leave this and consider the case when a Christian sins:

Q1. When a Christian sins is he walking in the Spirit?

Q2. When a Christian sins is he walking in the flesh?

Q3. Is sin walking in the flesh?

As you suggested here is the verse before and the verse after!

Romans 8:12-14
So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Q1...No, he is "walking" in the flesh. He is LIVING in the Spirit, though.

Q2...Yes, but he is not being governed by the Spirit; he is living under the Law of the Spirit of Life. The Law of Life means we've passed from death unto life...born of God. We are no longer under the bondage satan always held over us. Neither sin nor death has dominion over us any longer (our earthen body may go to ground, but our place is seated with Christ in heavenly places). Dominion speaks of rulership. We are ruled by the Spirit. He leads, guides, engineers our circumstances, and chastens us with the rod of correction. We may not realize we're ruled as we go on our merry way through life, but we are being perfected under His hand. We LIVE under the King's reign, and the Holy Spirit holds the rein.

Q3...Yes, but all men sin and come short of the glory of God.

So, when a Christian sins, he is walking in the flesh....he is not governed by the flesh, or LIVING in the flesh (for sin has no more dominion over us); he is merely listening to his flesh...his old man, his old sinful nature. All believers still walk in the flesh at various times, and in various ways. If anyone denies that, he is only fooling himself, because it's quite obvious to other believers. There is no hiding the flesh. It comes out in irritation, pride, self-will, and every other way you can think of.

The key here is the word LIFE. We do not LIVE after the flesh once we're born of the Spirit. The flesh lusts against the spirit, but the Spirit does not lust...it controls and fills us with LIFE. When a believer follows after the flesh, he is immature and in need of great direction and chastisement from the Holy Spirit. The more we're chastened and led by the Spirit, the more mature (perfect, as Paul calls it), and the more obedient we become. We are fathers and not children any longer.

Does that mean that when Paul says those who "live after the flesh, will die" are believers and in danger of losing LIFE if they follow the flesh a little too much...or a lot too much...(who decides that one?) Sons who are under the LAW of the Spirit of LIFE? No, that verse is being misunderstood, as I see it, for if it was saying what many claim, then none could have life. All men sin and come short of the glory of God. None walk wholly in the spirit. We are "soulish" when we walk in the flesh...we are walking according to our will, mind, and emotions. The Holy Spirit's work is to sanctify us...mortify the flesh in us, crucify the flesh in us, renew our minds, and bring our wills into submission. We LIVE after the Spirit...even when we listen to our natural reasoning instead of the leading of the Spirit. We live after the Spirit because the Spirit has given us LIFE.

Yes, it is our obligation to deny self and follow the Spirit's leading.

Whether someone is "in the flesh", or "in the Spirit" is dependant on whether they have the Spirit of God dwelling in them. Those who do, have LIFE already. Whether we sin or whether we listen to our flesh all day long, doesn't change the fact that we have LIFE. We believed unto life.... and Christ obeyed unto death for us

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Why are we debtors? Because we have been bought with a price. We owe the flesh nothing because Christ defeated sin at the cross, and he overcame death at His resurrection. We are free from the power of sin, but we forget that quite often.

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Paul is not saying "ye" specifically to the believer. He is addressing the entire congregation, to every hearer of his words. He is reiterating what he's already explained in depth. Those who LIVE after the flesh will die (natural man), those who "through the Spirit" are being "conformed", transformed, chastened, learning to deny self, being brought under submission, being convicted of sin...being santified, they shall live.
[quote:1ujpohik] 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of
the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Sorry this is so long, stranger. I just figure you give people a fair listen, and I might as well make my case as clearly as possible. Anyway....I can't help it...I love Romans.[/quote:1ujpohik]


Hi gd,
So your short answer is:
Q1. When a Christian sins is he walking in the Spirit? NO
Q2. When a Christian sins is he walking in the flesh? YES
Q3. Is sin walking in the flesh? YES.

Nothing unusual here.

Your long answer....
Will try to answer your post in greater detail tomorrow.

 

[Adullam]

Good works are not the same as works of the law. What the bible calls good is....good! These works justify the doer of them. However, dead works that are performed by those that seek justification do not justify.

Are hearers of the law justified or the doers of the law justified? Most would disagree with the word and say that doing good works is pointless. This then is the fable that men have turned to in these last days among they that believe we can remain unfruitful and somehow be saved.

Rather salvation is a process of continued obedience until the end. God will prove us and refine us if we endure.

Fruit naturally follows the believer. No one is saying otherwise. It's a result of being justified and born of God. God has ordained that we should walk in good deeds. Good deeds aren't pointless. but they do not contribute to our salvation, they are a manifestation of our salvation.

Enduring to the end does not mean our salvation is contingent upon our walk. We are saved from many things...not just eternal death if we fail to run the race up to some certain standard. We are saved through tribulation, we are saved through adversity, we are saved from our enemies, and saved from the wrath of God. We run the race and we endure to receive the reward that has been promised to those who believe.

Salvation IS contingent on our walk. We have no inherent rights before God. Neither did the Jewish nation before us. God did not change and become soft since then. We still have to be doers of the word to be justified. One cannot abide in Christ AND walk in disobedience. Whether or not the disobedient claim to be saved or not is irrelevent. Obedience is the standard...grace is the means to obtain that obedience. God has no favourites and does not respect our sinful natures. He has no favourite sins as we have (if we are disobedient). A person is not saved through belief....nor is a person saved if they "believe" they are. I believe therefore I am???? This is one of the fables that moderns have traded for the truth. Claiming greatness or acceptance for oneself is incongruent with the type of humility that obtains justification before God. This should be evident. As it is written...

People will refuse to listen to the truth and turn to myths. 2 Tim. 4:4

 

[Adullam]

Check this out....and please pay attention...

19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

If a brother Christian....yes a Christian...wanders from the truth....he will die there unless freshly saved from the evil he is doing. The truth is, that we all need to be saved many times. No one has a perfect walk after the initial saving grace is given. How many times did God save Israel in the desert...just once??? Read Psalm 107.

If a righteous person leaves his righteousness to do what is evil...then all the former righteousness he has done will be forgotten and he will die in his sin. The other side of the coin is...when a wicked person forsakes his wickedness and does what is right, then all the former evil will be forgotten and he will live for his repentance. You can't have one reality without the other. There is no..."heads I win tails you lose" in the kingdom of God. God's ways are equal. Read Ez. chaper 18

Salvation is a process!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!