The Mangling of Ephesians 2:8-9

[stranger]

Hi Drew,

Ephesians 2:
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

James 2:
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

You have gone to lengths to equate 'works' with 'good works' or with 'works of the law of Moses' depending upon the context. It occurred to me that you can also 'equate' faith in the Ephesians text with faith in James2:17,18 thus:

According to James faith has to include 'works' or it cannot be demonstrated or shown. Likewise, if faith is separated from works, it is dead 'being by itself.' Thus faith alone is dead without works.

So the expression Eph2:8a 'For by grace you have been saved through faith' presupposes that faith is not separated from works.

If faith is separted from works, then no one would argue that grace operates through dead faith.

I would take v9 'not as a result of works' to mean that grace operates through faith (and works) but is not caused to operate in the presence of faith and works lest any man should boast!

Thus God freely bestows grace where He sees faith and works and I would think He freely withholds grace where He sees faith without works.

blessings brother

 

[francisdesales]

You're denying the Lord who BOUGHT you...with a price. That price does not include any good deeds you or anyone else is capable of producing, even when filled with the Holy Spirit. A lamb without blemish...and that isn't you.

You think we still live under the Law. Thus, your idea that man must be perfect.

Jesus was a sin offering. The anger of God is appeased, so to speak, as a result of the intercessions of the Christ. We now are under Grace, and we don't HAVE to be perfect - God can treat us with Mercy WHILE being Just.

Your "theology" fails to take into consideration that we are not subject to the Law, thus, we are not REQUIRED to be perfect.

 

[Drew]

Re: precisely

Yes this is what he is talking about. And to say that people are not saved by the works of the Law of Moses - which would limit salvation to the Jew - is precisely what Paul should say if he is making the point you assert he is making.

what do you mean by limit here? the Jew has never been saved by works; all throughout history it has always been by 'grace'.

(Ty)

First of all, thanks for reading. Those of us who invest a lot of time posting here probably all hope that the discussion reaches more people than the just the few heavy posters.

I agree with you in a sense. If you have been reading a lot in this and other related threads, you will know that I think that Paul says that all people who eventually get saved are indeed "saved by good works". In other words, I think that Paul means exactly what he says here in Romans 2:6-7:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Now I know that there are probably some out there whose worldview will simply not allow them to take on board what I am about say, but here goes: Salvation by good works is entirely an act of grace if, repeat if, those works cannot be produced by unaided self-effort, but can only be generated by the activity of the Holy Spirit. And the Spirit is given to those who have one thing: Faith.

Now about Paul and the church at Rome. Paul is dealing with the widespread belief among the Jews that salvation is limited to Jews alone. One way to challenge this is for Paul to tell them that they are not saved by being under the ethnic charter that marked the Jew out from the Gentile: the Law of Moses. Or, in other words, doing the “works†of the Law of Moses.

As you imply, the Jew never viewed the Law of Moses as a “ladder of good works†up which to climb to get eternal life. They viewed the Law as something which they were to obey in response to the grace of a God who saves them on other grounds – simply by being born into God’s favoured people. So when Paul tells the Jew that he is not saved by “worksâ€, he is telling him God does not only save Jews.

Is this clear now?

 

[Drew]

You don't have to tell me what the KJ says...I've posted it many times. It does not say, "He will give" eternal life.

It does not have the phrase "he will give" in it, agreed.

But you are having trouble with the english form here. It is effectively saying the same thing as "he will give".

If I say "I will give rewards to children according to deeds. To those who persist in doing good, ice cream cones", this is a statement that "I will give ice cream cones to kids who do good".

I do not know if you are intentionally misrepresenting the KJV or you are having difficulty with this slightly unusual way of making a statement about what God will do.

But trust me gd, the KJV reads as a statement about God giving eternal life in the future based on deeds.

The absence of the exact phrase "he will give" does not change this.

Now, please, get straightened out on the matter of the English here.

 

[Vic C.]

... (1)You have gone to lengths to equate 'works' with 'good works' or with 'works of the law of Moses' depending upon the context....

... (2)Thus God freely bestows grace where He sees faith and works and I would think He freely withholds grace where He sees faith without works.

blessings brother

(1) I will ask again that we come up with a list of what is and isn't a work based on the law of Moses. That should be the foundation of this topic, since Drew is the OP and his "argument" relies on this particular set of "works".

(2) Stranger, you have nullified the very definition of the word Grace as it pertains to matters of salvation and justification. It is a "gift", it is unmerited and has nothing to do with payment or reward.

 

[francisdesales]

... (1)You have gone to lengths to equate 'works' with 'good works' or with 'works of the law of Moses' depending upon the context....

... (2)Thus God freely bestows grace where He sees faith and works and I would think He freely withholds grace where He sees faith without works.

blessings brother

(1) I will ask again that we come up with a list of what is and isn't a work based on the law of Moses. That should be the foundation of this topic, since Drew is the OP and his "argument" relies on this particular set of "works".

(2) Stranger, you have nullified the very definition of the word Grace as it pertains to matters of salvation and justification. It is a "gift", it is unmerited and has nothing to do with payment or reward.

Are you saying that God, based upon HIS righteousness, cannot give a gift that is conditional???

Here is an example to explain, Vic.

Let's say I am an employer. I am considered "righteous" in that I am fair and just.

During the week, my employees get paid. They do "x", and I agree to pay them "y".

Now, during the weekend, I ask my employees if anyone would like to VOLUNTEER to wash my car. I don't offer to pay a wage. NOW, knowing that I am righteous, one of my employees may come over to wash my car, not out of payment, but because they like me and desire to make me happy. IN ADDITION, they know I am righteous, and may offer some reward.

I can freely give a gift for this deed, as I am righteous and just. I am not bound to, I did not commit to offer a wage, nor does the employee demand a wage. He comes over out of love of me and knows I am righteous and will think kindly towards him. Thus, any reward or gift I give him does not fall under the auspice of "wage".

God can also give a conditional gift, awaiting me or you to do something first. Grace builds upon Grace. When we respond to grace 1, God may decide that He will offer grace 2. Thus, the parable of the talents, the man who failed loses his talent and it is given to the man with 10. A grace upon grace.

What we need to watch for is that idea of wage. Where God owes me. That will not do. However, there is nothing wrong with God freely rewarding our good deeds in love. He did it all throughout the OT. They are called blessings, which result AFTER repentance, the desired "deed".

Rend your hearts, not your garments. (Joel 2) If you do, what happens next? This is not a wage, God does not owe blessings based upon the rending of the hearts. But it IS what God desires to do - to attain an inner conversion of the heart.

Regards

 

[Drew]

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

verse 7 says 'by' patient continuence; not 'through'.. if it were in ref. to the precede (6) being by deeds, it would have said 'through' to clarify.

No. Note the use of the colon after the word "deeds". Like all the other translations read, this translation reads as asserting that eternal life is granted to those whose deeds manifest the listed attributes: persistence in doing good, seeking glory, etc.

 

[Drew]

You have gone to lengths to equate 'works' with 'good works' or with 'works of the law of Moses' depending upon the context.

Agreed, although probably 90 % of my arguments have been about how "works" in certain contexts have been read as "good works" when it should have been read as "works of the Law of Moses".

So the expression Eph2:8a 'For by grace you have been saved through faith' presupposes that faith is not separated from works.

If faith is separted from works, then no one would argue that grace operates through dead faith.

I would take v9 'not as a result of works' to mean that grace operates through faith (and works) but is not caused to operate in the presence of faith and works lest any man should boast!

I think that the "works" here are the works of the Law of Moses.

The material that follows 2:8-10 makes no sense if "good works" are in view in 2:8-10. More specifically, if the justification value of "good works" is being denied, why does Paul use a "therefore" transitional in verse 11 to conclude that the Gentile now has access to the covenant promises (including, of course, final justification) specifically because a dividing line between Jew and Gentile has been dissolved? After all, the dividing line is, of course, not the “good works†line, it is the “works of Torah†line.

There is indeed a sense in which the standard reformed reading of this could be salvaged (although this ultimately does not work as we will shortly see). If Paul says “no one is justified by good works, therefore remember that the Jew-Gentile barrier has been destroyedâ€, he could mean that there is some difference between the Jew and the Gentile in respect to doing good works, but this difference is irrelevant since good works do not justify.

In other words, he could be saying: "Listen you Gentiles, you need not do the good works that the Jews are doing to be saved since good works do not save anyway, therefore...you are not foreigners to the covenants of the promise, etc., etc.)â€

But, of course, Paul does not believe this - he believes that Jew and Gentile alike are in sin. So it makes no sense for Paul, if he has really asserted that "good works" do not save, to then say "therefore you Gentiles now have hope since the barrier between Jew and Gentile has been destroyed, etc. etc." Why does this not make sense? Obviously, because Jew and Gentile are on equal footing in respect to "good works" – neither does enough good works to save.

Paul is therefore obviously talking about the works of Torah in 2:8-10. Then the "therefore" stuff makes sense since Torah is indeed the thing that divides Jew from Gentile and is the basis for the Gentile believing that he is on the outside in respect to the covenant promises.

 

[Drew]

(1) I will ask again that we come up with a list of what is and isn't a work based on the law of Moses. That should be the foundation of this topic, since Drew is the OP and his "argument" relies on this particular set of "works".

A "work" of the Law of Moses is any act of obedience to the Law of Moses.

So not eating screech owls is a work of the Law of Moses;

Undergoing ritual purification is a work of the Law of Moses.

Not working on the Sabbath is a "work" of the Law of Moses.

What about not committing adultery? Is this a work of the Law of Moses? Well, yes and no. Here is where things get tricky. Clearly the 10 commandments are part of the Law of Moses. But if you read Paul carefully, you will see that he generally brings up the Law of Moses - and its works - in a context where he wants to make a statement about the Jew to the exclusion of the Gentile. So I would suggest that the "works" of the Law of Moses for Paul are more specifically those parts of the Law that clearly mark out the Jew from the Gentile. These are things like Levitical food laws, Sabbath and circumcision.

In other words, I submit that Paul often talks about the Law of Moses specifically in respect to its function as a racial / ethnic delimiter.

 

[Drew]

(2) Stranger, you have nullified the very definition of the word Grace as it pertains to matters of salvation and justification. It is a "gift", it is unmerited and has nothing to do with payment or reward.

I doubt that stranger has done what you are suggesting.

Or, at any rate, asserting justification by good works is not, repeat not, a a denial of unmerited grace, if, repeat if, the works are generated by the Holy Spirit.

 

[stranger]

... (1)You have gone to lengths to equate 'works' with 'good works' or with 'works of the law of Moses' depending upon the context....

... (2)Thus God freely bestows grace where He sees faith and works and I would think He freely withholds grace where He sees faith without works.

blessings brother

(1) I will ask again that we come up with a list of what is and isn't a work based on the law of Moses. That should be the foundation of this topic, since Drew is the OP and his "argument" relies on this particular set of "works".

(2) Stranger, you have nullified the very definition of the word Grace as it pertains to matters of salvation and justification. It is a "gift", it is unmerited and has nothing to do with payment or reward.

Hi Vic C,

For this tread I would say the 'works of the law' are attempts to live by the ten commandments.

The good works are the fruits of the Spirit. OK?

Basically I have sought to understand Eph 2:8,9 by using the definition of 'faith' derived from James 2:17-18. I point out that 'faith', so clearly expressed in James 2:17-18, is an apostolic perspective of faith and so is worthy of our consideration. Here is the controversial statement rewritten to better reflect James' perspective of faith:

Thus God freely bestows grace where He sees faith shown by works and I would think He freely withholds the gift of grace where He sees faith without works.

~where: faith shown by works and faith without works are taken from James 2:17-18. Colour added for emphasis - no disrespect intended Vic.

I would be equally happy to use other apostolic perspectives of faith if such could be gleaned from the writings of eg Peter, or John.

I admit the wording reflects a dimension of predestination; hence the reference to God's freedom. I look forward to what you have to say.

blessings brother

 

[poohbah]

Re: precisely

Yes this is what he is talking about. And to say that people are not saved by the works of the Law of Moses - which would limit salvation to the Jew - is precisely what Paul should say if he is making the point you assert he is making.

what do you mean by limit here? the Jew has never been saved by works; all throughout history it has always been by 'grace'.

(Ty)

Is this clear now?

I think the confusion here is that word saved. If I am going to Heaven it is the work of Gods' grace, if I am living a Christian life it is Gods' mercy imputed to me because I am going to Heaven.

Ephesians 2:8,9

 

[glorydaz]

You're denying the Lord who BOUGHT you...with a price. That price does not include any good deeds you or anyone else is capable of producing, even when filled with the Holy Spirit. A lamb without blemish...and that isn't you.

You think we still live under the Law. Thus, your idea that man must be perfect.
Jesus was a sin offering. The anger of God is appeased, so to speak, as a result of the intercessions of the Christ. We now are under Grace, and we don't HAVE to be perfect - God can treat us with Mercy WHILE being Just.

Your "theology" fails to take into consideration that we are not subject to the Law, thus, we are not REQUIRED to be perfect.

You misrepresent me, Joe. I do not think we still live under the law...which made nothing perfect. Under the law, people were separated from the Holy of Holies...not able to "draw nigh unto God," as we are.

For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

The law merely exposed man's sin, and even gifts and sacrifices could not gain him access into the presence of God.

Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

What the law could not do...Jesus did. If the sacrifices secured complete forgiveness, they would not have been offered over and over. The fact that it was done showed that there was still a consciousness of sin.

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

According to the good pleasure of his will, God has given us access to His throne...we can enter because our conscience is now clear of sin. We have complete assurance that our sins have been forgiven...once for all time, and Christ's righteousness has been imputed unto us. Therefore, we come boldly...

We are perfect...not in ourselves, but in our position in Christ Jesus. We don't have to clean ourselves up to enter into the Holy of Holies...we are clean because we're wrapped in the robe of Christ's righteousness.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

We don't have to do acts of penance, clean ourselves up, or wait until some future day to be acceptable to God. We are washed in the blood of the Lamb. :yes

And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

 

[glorydaz]

Obviously, because Jew and Gentile are on equal footing in respect to "good works" – neither does enough good works to save.

BINGO

And this totally negates what you've been claiming Paul says in Romans 2:7....that God will give eternal life to those who persist in well doing.

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

God gives eternal life based on whether our sins have been covered by the blood of Christ. You can't pick and choose what you consider good deeds, good works, or well doing to claim one gives eternal life and not the other. It isn't our obedience that took away our sin, but Christ's. It isn't our good deeds, with or without the Spirit's help, that takes away our sin...but Christ's work on the cross. Good deeds do not remove sin...only the blood does that.

ANY MAN...not just the Jews and not just the Gentiles, but ANY MAN.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[glorydaz]

Are you saying that God, based upon HIS righteousness, cannot give a gift that is conditional???

God can do whatever He likes, but He hasn't left us without the truth.

Salvation is a free gift that contains, within the gift, the power to meet any and all "conditions". We must only reach out our hand and touch the rock to have living water pour forth. We must only look upon the serpent on the pole and we are healed. The intrinsic power of the gift of God is amazing. We "look upon" Christ with an open heart and He pours forth all we require. It comes down to being saved by grace through faith. Our very act of believing in Christ releases the power of God and we're justified, sanctified, crucified with Christ and raised into newness of life.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

To believe is to obey.

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

To repent is to obey.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

But to obey is just our duty.

So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

I realize you'll argue about "belief", but God sees into our hearts and knows whether it's true belief or what the devils have. It's pointless to argue real faith or dead faith. Dead faith never had the life-giving power of God to begin with. Salvation is a work of God on the heart of man, and He knows whether we believe in Him. Salvation is a one-time event that involves many things...from repentance to being regenerated and filled with the Spirit of God. We accept the gift offered, or we reject it...that is the only condition to receiving it.

 

[glorydaz]

(2) Stranger, you have nullified the very definition of the word Grace as it pertains to matters of salvation and justification. It is a "gift", it is unmerited and has nothing to do with payment or reward.

I doubt that stranger has done what you are suggesting.

Or, at any rate, asserting justification by good works is not, repeat not, a a denial of unmerited grace, if, repeat if, the works are generated by the Holy Spirit.

I have many good works generated by the Holy Spirit, but none of them saves me.

Giving to the poor in obedience to God doesn't save me.
Obeying or disobeying a commandment doesn't save or condemn me.
Having great faith or little faith doesn't save me, either.

Believing in Jesus' work on the cross and His resurrection did, however.

 

[poohbah]

There is a very simple analogy in this: You are given a check, but unless you take it to the bank...


It is a good check, right? But, unless you take it to the bank...


You may even believe it is a good check; but unless you take it to the bank...

 

[glorydaz]

There is a very simple analogy in this: You are given a check, but unless you take it to the bank...


It is a good check, right? But, unless you take it to the bank...


You may even believe it is a good check; but unless you take it to the bank...

I took mine to the bank.

 

[Drew]

Re: precisely

Ephesians 2:8,9

The point of this thread is to make the argument that the "works" whose saving power is being denied in this text are the works of the Law of Moses.

You should really engage the arguments that I have made to this effect, and not simply "assume" the conventional reading of this text.

 

[poohbah]

I never ascend to the past. So reading everything is not even an open minded option. What I do is take the verse in question and point out the obvious. There is no mysterman (no pun as that is someone's identity here) in the moon, he's in the clouds of observation. If you don't know what I mean, then assume you can question the obvious, the at hand.