The Mangling of Ephesians 2:8-9

[Drew]

So reading everything is not even an open minded option. What I do is take the verse in question and point out the obvious. There is no mysterman (no pun as that is someone's identity here) in the moon, he's in the clouds of observation. If you don't know what I mean, then assume you can question the obvious, the at hand.

When you simply refuse to engage opposing viewpoints, you give the reader the impression that your position rests on extremely shaky foundations.

Please engage my arguments about how the "works" in this text are the works of the Law of Moses, not "good works" generally.

 

[poohbah]

Drew, I appreciate analogue (not arguments):

such as good works don't exist, it is obvious the works of the Law cannot save

 

[poohbah]

When you simply refuse to engage opposing viewpoints, you give the reader the impression that your position rests on extremely shaky foundations.

.

I hold no position. It would be grounds on which any foundation could crumble. I'm not even holding to a particular foundation, the foundation is certain. There is none other laid, that which is laid. We are to build on the foundation.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: precisely

Ephesians 2:8,9

The point of this thread is to make the argument that the "works" whose saving power is being denied in this text are the works of the Law of Moses.

You should really engage the arguments that I have made to this effect, and not simply "assume" the conventional reading of this text.

You act like "conventional" is a bad word. Long held truths are always the best, because they have been confirmed by a multitude of believers down the the ages. I won't "unlearn" something I've been taught by the Holy Spirit already just because someone comes along with a "new" reading of a particular verse. It must agree with the whole Word of God and your particular doctrine just can't do that.

While certain things are applicable to the Jews and the Law of Moses, the entire Word was written for the benefit of all believers. It takes discernment to be able to rightly understand any particular verse. The first thing that must be done is to take the verse in the context in which it's been written. You just can't do that with this verse in Eph. and ascribe "works" of the law when it's written to Gentiles and says quite plainly that's who it's addressing.

 

[stranger]

Re: precisely

glorydaz wrote:

You act like "conventional" is a bad word. Long held truths are always the best, because they have been confirmed by a multitude of believers down the the ages. I won't "unlearn" something I've been taught by the Holy Spirit already just because someone comes along with a "new" reading of a particular verse. It must agree with the whole Word of God and your particular doctrine just can't do that.

The Holy Spirit would not teach two men differently, agreed? Let's pick Martin Luther and the apostle James. You will be aware that Martin Luther called the book of James an epistle of straw? Why? I suggest it's the text James 2:17-18 and Luthers own belief in 'justification by faith alone'.

While certain things are applicable to the Jews and the Law of Moses, the entire Word was written for the benefit of all believers. It takes discernment to be able to rightly understand any particular verse. The first thing that must be done is to take the verse in the context in which it's been written. You just can't do that with this verse in Eph. and ascribe "works" of the law when it's written to Gentiles and says quite plainly that's who it's addressing.

Whether it is written to Jews or Gentiles does not change the fact that works are either 'works of the Spirit' or 'works of the flesh'. You won't find the context in scripture where the works of the Holy Spirit are condemned. So where works are condemned in any context this does not include good works or fruit of the Holy Spirit.

blessings brother

 

[JudaicChristian]

Faith without works is a dead faith. Hello Stranger, it's MTAA.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: precisely

The Holy Spirit would not teach two men differently, agreed? Let's pick Martin Luther and the apostle James. You will be aware that Martin Luther called the book of James an epistle of straw? Why? I suggest it's the text James 2:17-18 and Luthers own belief in 'justification by faith alone'.


Whether it is written to Jews or Gentiles does not change the fact that works are either 'works of the Spirit' or 'works of the flesh'. You won't find the context in scripture where the works of the Holy Spirit are condemned. So where works are condemned in any context this does not include good works or fruit of the Holy Spirit.

blessings brother

But, we're not talking about Martin Luther...he didn't write divinely inspired words given by God. Paul and James not only ARE in agreement, but they MUST be in agreement. The Scripture cannot be broken, but man's understanding often fails.

This involves "showing" as opposed to "saying". The proof's in the pudding. "Faith being alone" is dead...not possessing the life of the Holy Spirit that produces the fruit man can see.

'Your faith has no works, so it's dead faith. You can see my faith in my works.

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

To put it simply...

Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.

James uses the word "see" and "show"... we can see with our own eyes and aren't left to rely on the "mouth" of those making claims of faith.

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Abraham "believed God"...and it was imputed unto him for righteousness (justified).
Note the use of the word "see". Man can't know someone's faith is alive unless he sees the physical acting of good works which come as a result of a circumcised heart.

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

A man, without the Holy Spirit, is dead in sin...so...we will know them by their fruit. If they don't have fruit, they are still dead in their sin but claiming to be righteous....hypocrites, which is what the first part of this chapter is addressing.

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[stranger]

Faith without works is a dead faith. Hello Stranger, it's MTAA.

hi,

Yes, faith without works is dead; but what is MTAA?

blessings

 

[Drew]

Drew, I appreciate analogue (not arguments):

such as good works don't exist, it is obvious the works of the Law cannot save

I agree that the works of the Law of Moses do not save. But the works of the Law of Moses are not in the same category as the more general category of good works.

The material that follows the "therefore" in verse 11 make it clear that the "works" that do not save are the practices of the Law of Moses.

Thankfullty, this is the case because then we do not have to say Paul was "just kidding", when, in Romans 2:6-7, he asserts that eternal life is granted to those who persist in good works.

 

[Drew]

Re: precisely

Long held truths are always the best, because they have been confirmed by a multitude of believers down the the ages.

Do you believe in the rapture? If you are consistent in the application of this principle, you should not believe in the Rapture, since it is a very new idea - only 200 years old or so.

So please tell us: Do you believe in the rapture?

I won't "unlearn" something I've been taught by the Holy Spirit already just because someone comes along with a "new" reading of a particular verse. It must agree with the whole Word of God and your particular doctrine just can't do that.

You have made no case to support this position of yours. You, and you are not alone, basically dismiss Romans 2:6-7. You are free to do this, of course, but making general statements about a "Roman road" argument, with no actual content that explains why Paul does not mean he writes in Romans 2:6-7, strikes me as decidedly unconvincing.

And, to be consistent, you must obviously believe that Paul was not serious when he makes this Romans 8 statement where it is clear that he links the attaining of eternal life to the work of the Spirit in your life in generating "good works":

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

Yet another clear statement that the attainment of eternal life arises in virtue of "livng according to the Spirit".

You just can't do that with this verse in Eph. and ascribe "works" of the law when it's written to Gentiles and says quite plainly that's who it's addressing.

This is an incorrect argument as has been explained to you already.

It is simply not correct logic to say "this letter is directed to Gentiles, therefore Paul cannot be making a statement about the Law of Moses".

I do not know how more clearly to say it than this: The very thing that the Gentile readers need to hear is that God's salvation is not limited to Jews only, that is to those who do the works of the Law of Moses. The perfect way to re-assure the Gentiles is to tell them "people are not saved by doing the works of the Law of Moses".

Its so frustrating when this manifestly incorrect argument - that Paul cannot be talking about the Law of Moses simply because the Letter is written to Gentiles - is made over and over again. Do you not realize the problem with it?

 

[glorydaz]

Drew, I appreciate analogue (not arguments):

such as good works don't exist, it is obvious the works of the Law cannot save

I agree that the works of the Law of Moses do not save. But the works of the Law of Moses are not in the same category as the more general category of good works.

The material that follows the "therefore" in verse 11 make it clear that the "works" that do not save are the practices of the Law of Moses.

Thankfullty, this is the case because then we do not have to say Paul was "just kidding", when, in Romans 2:6-7, he asserts that eternal life is granted to those who persist in good works.

Titus 3:5 - Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[glorydaz]

Re: precisely

So please tell us: Do you believe in the rapture?

LOL...you're so funny, Drew. Actually, I don't believe in the rapture. I believe in the gathering of the Bride when our Lord returns.

You, and you are not alone, basically dismiss Romans 2:6-7. You are free to do this, of course, but making general statements about a "Roman road" argument, with no actual content that explains why Paul does not mean he writes in Romans 2:6-7, strikes me as decidedly unconvincing.

That's not true. I don't dismiss it at all. I simply take the verse in context and it's clear as a bell.

And, to be consistent, you must obviously believe that Paul was not serious when he makes this Romans 8 statement where it is clear that he links the attaining of eternal life to the work of the Spirit in your life in generating "good works":

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

Yet another clear statement that the attainment of eternal life arises in virtue of "livng according to the Spirit".

By all means let's look at Romans 8. You say, "Yet another clear statement that the attainment of eternal life arises in virtue of "livng according to the Spirit". Living according to the Spirit is what the sons of God do. We live according to the Spirit...unbelivers live according to the flesh. For some reason you have a hard time discerning believers from unbelivers. That right there is why you can't rightly understand Rom. 2.

Here we see...there is NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ Jesus. Those without the Spirit still live according to the flesh. Those with the Spirit live according to the Spirit.
It's a question of law...and not the law of Moses, either. The law of the Spirit means we are free from the law of sin and death. The unbelievers (those of the flesh) cannot please God. The believers, (those with the Spirit dwelling within) are the adopted sons of God. There are only two groups of people...the saved and the unsaved. Those who walk after the Spirit within or those who walk after the flesh. If you're tying to tie "works" into this fact then you'll miss what Paul is saying. Needless to say...you have missed it.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if
any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Paul says quite clearly, "Be ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you." Not, if you're doing good works, or if you're still manifesting some old fleshly habits. If the Spirit of God dwells in us...we are in the Spirit and not the flesh. No bouncing back and forth...Either spirit of flesh. One or the other.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: precisely

Paul says quite clearly, "Be ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you." Not, if you're doing good works, or if you're still manifesting some old fleshly habits. If the Spirit of God dwells in us...we are in the Spirit and not the flesh. No bouncing back and forth...Either spirit of flesh. One or the other.

Paul is quite clear that how we act determines whether we are in the flesh or in the spirit. His discussion on "flesh" vs "spirit" is talking about what principle is guiding us now. Are we fulfilling our fleshy passions or are we walking in the ways of God. Any Christian with their head on straight will quickly realize that there are moments when we are NOT crucifying our fleshy passions, and other times when we are indeed. Yes, we are "one or the other", and we DO "bounce back", depending on whether we cooperate with God's Spirit given to us.

Yes, we can grieve the Spirit. Even Christians.

 

[Drew]

Titus 3:5 - Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This text supports my argument gd, - we are not saved by works of righteousness that we have done - this is decidedly not a denial of Paul's repeated assertions that, indeed, eternal life is based on "good works". What is the basis of our salvation? Renewing of the Holy Ghost. This is precisely the Romans 8 argument where Paul says that we are saved by walking in the Spirit.

I have been crystal clear about this - I agree with Paul in Romans 2:6-7 (you do not, of course) and I agree with this text as well.

We are indeed saved by "good works" (Romans 2:6-7, Romands 8, 2 Corinthians 5, and other texts as well.)

The credit for those good works belongs to the Holy Spirit. (Titus 3:5)

 

[Drew]

Re: precisely

By all means let's look at Romans 8. You say, "Yet another clear statement that the attainment of eternal life arises in virtue of "livng according to the Spirit". Living according to the Spirit is what the sons of God do. We live according to the Spirit...unbelivers live according to the flesh. For some reason you have a hard time discerning believers from unbelivers. That right there is why you can't rightly understand Rom. 2.

Like in Romans 2 - you simply deny the text and trump Paul's argument with your own. Paul says what he says gd!! It is by walking in the Spirit that people get "life" - here, clearly, eternal life. This is the very thing that you deny. Just as you deny Romans 2:6-7. Note what Paul is saying and contrast it with your position.

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

Paul is talking to believers here gd - "brothers". You manifestly disagree with Paul and change what is clearly a warning directed to believers that they are obliged to live according to the Spirit into a statement about how unbelievers live according to the flesh:

Those without the Spirit still live according to the flesh. Those with the Spirit live according to the Spirit.

You are distorting Paul here.

 

[Drew]

The problem here as elsewhere is a clearly demonstrated lack of fidelity to the actual details of what Paul is saying.

In Romans 2:6-7, we get the manifest distortion of the text to make the untenable claim that there is no statement here about the giving of eternal life.

And in Romans 8, the clear sense of the text is again bent so that what is clearly a warning to beleivers to walk according to the Spirit and thereby get life, is transformed into a statement about what is true of unbelievers - that they do not walk according to the Spirit. Well, no kidding.

If you honour Paul in the details of what he actually wrote, and not morph what he wrote into something else, a clear and consistent picture emerges: As per Romans 8: how does the believer get "life". Gd will have you believe that is by something other than the content of your life as lived. What does Paul say? Let him speak for himself:

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

 

[glorydaz]

Re: precisely

Paul says quite clearly, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you." Not, if you're doing good works, or if you're still manifesting some old fleshly habits. If the Spirit of God dwells in us...we are in the Spirit and not the flesh. No bouncing back and forth...Either spirit of flesh. One or the other.

Paul is quite clear that how we act determines whether we are in the flesh or in the spirit.

No, that's not what Paul is saying. We are in the Spirit when we are regenerated. It's positional...not situational. We are in the Spirit when the Spirit of God dwells in us. The Spirit does not move out when we walk after our old fleshly nature...but we're told to mortify the deeds of the flesh. That does not mean, in any way, that we are in the flesh.

Those who are under the law of sin and death are children of the flesh. Those under the Law of the Spirit of life are sons of God...children of the promise.

Sin has no more dominion over the believer...death (spiritual) doesn't either.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[glorydaz]

Titus 3:5 - Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This text supports my argument gd, - we are not saved by works of righteousness that we have done - this is decidedly not a denial of Paul's repeated assertions that, indeed, eternal life is based on "good works". What is the basis of our salvation? Renewing of the Holy Ghost. This is precisely the Romans 8 argument where Paul says that we are saved by walking in the Spirit.

I have been crystal clear about this - I agree with Paul in Romans 2:6-7 (you do not, of course) and I agree with this text as well.

We are indeed saved by "good works" (Romans 2:6-7, Romands 8, 2 Corinthians 5, and other texts as well.)

The credit for those good works belongs to the Holy Spirit. (Titus 3:5)

No, we are not saved by any good works....except the work of the cross. Good works are but a manifestation of faith. They do not take the place of faith in our justification before God. Good works are not, and can not be, the basis of our salvation. It's the ONE WORK of Christ on the cross...not the fruit (or good deeds) that is produced by the Spirit in our lives. They do not save us ...nor do they contribute to our salvation. We are regenerated and good works follow, but they do not pay the price for our sins, so they do not contribute in any way to our being saved. All the glory goes to God. His work in us after we're saved is a little thing called sanctification...not justification as you keep claiming.

This is not the same judgment facing unbelievers. This is speaking of the Bema Seat of Christ where we will receive greater or lesser rewards depending on our faithfulness. Our unprofitable works will be burned up, but we, ourselves will be saved.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

This is speaking of the day of wrath and the righteous judment of God...rendering to evey man according to his deeds. The Great White Throne Judgment where sin will come into the equation.

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Romans 8 is speaking of the natural man and the spiritual man. You're getting mixed up as to who fits in those categories. Positionally, we are in Christ and spiritual. We are freed from the law of sin and death. You may think you have to keep yourself from falling back into the flesh, but those in Christ are alive in His righteousness. We are dead to sin...no longer under it's "dominion".

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: precisely

By all means let's look at Romans 8. You say, "Yet another clear statement that the attainment of eternal life arises in virtue of "livng according to the Spirit". Living according to the Spirit is what the sons of God do. We live according to the Spirit...unbelivers live according to the flesh. For some reason you have a hard time discerning believers from unbelivers. That right there is why you can't rightly understand Rom. 2.

Like in Romans 2 - you simply deny the text and trump Paul's argument with your own. Paul says what he says gd!! It is by walking in the Spirit that people get "life" - here, clearly, eternal life. This is the very thing that you deny. Just as you deny Romans 2:6-7. Note what Paul is saying and contrast it with your position.

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

Paul is talking to believers here gd - "brothers". You manifestly disagree with Paul and change what is clearly a warning directed to believers that they are obliged to live according to the Spirit into a statement about how unbelievers live according to the flesh:

Those without the Spirit still live according to the flesh. Those with the Spirit live according to the Spirit.

You are distorting Paul here.

I find it interesting that you cannot discuss the Word of God without accusing me of "distorting." The fact that you're unable to understand what Paul is saying, does not give you the right to constantly accuse me of distorting the Word. I could say the same to you...on a very regular basis, but what would that prove?

And stop saying I deny what Paul is saying in Romans 2. That's a lie. I just understand what Paul is saying, and it isn't that we receive eternal life based on what good deeds we produce...through the Spirit or otherwise. Our obedience doesn't save us...Christ's does. Our works don't save us...Christ's do. Either stop with the accusations and act like a grown up, or I'll start treating you like a child.

 

[Drew]

Re: precisely

I find it interesting that you cannot discuss the Word of God without accusing me of "distorting." The fact that you're unable to understand what Paul is saying, does not give you the right to constantly accuse me of distorting the Word. I could say the same to you...on a very regular basis, but what would that prove?

You are distorting in the sense that you re-work the words of Paul into something other than what you are. And this is easy to see, as has already been shown.

And stop saying I deny what Paul is saying in Romans 2. That's a lie.

No gd, it is not a lie. This has been shown over and over. You reach in with your exegetical scalpel and carve the "he will give eternal life" out of Romans 2:6-7.

If that is allowed, where does it end?