The Mangling of Ephesians 2:8-9

[stranger]

Hello glorydaz,

Time to summarise where we agree and disagree.

Feel free to ask me any questions.

Q 1. Do you believe in justification by faith alone?

blessings brother

I would say we're justified the same way we're saved...by grace through faith.

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

[quote="Galatians 2:16":3kh3cl08]Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[/quote:3kh3cl08]

Specifically, do you believe in justification by faith alone?

 

[glorydaz]

Hello glorydaz,

Time to summarise where we agree and disagree.

Feel free to ask me any questions.

Q 1. Do you believe in justification by faith alone?

blessings brother

I would say we're justified the same way we're saved...by grace through faith.

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

[quote="Galatians 2:16":3240dyef]Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Specifically, do you believe in justification by faith alone?[/quote:3240dyef]

I never say by faith alone because there is no using faith without grace. I don't think faith without grace is worth a dime...unless grace is given by God, there is no faith to be found. Grace must come first, so you can't insist I give a partial answer to your question.

"Specifically"...
The means God uses to apply grace is by faith alone...unto salvation.
That's how we're justified before God.

We aren't justified before men by faith, because they can't see into our hearts.
So we're justified before men by our good deeds.

So, to answer you question, I need to know who you're referring to...God or men.
Before God, it's through faith alone (by the grace of God, of course).
You add men to the equation and you would add works since man doesn't see faith.

 

[stranger]

the question...

Q 1. Do you believe in justification by faith alone?

glorydaz wrote:

I would say we're justified the same way we're saved...by grace through faith.
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

stranger wrote:

Specifically, do you believe in justification by faith alone?

I never say by faith alone because there is no using faith without grace. I don't think faith without grace is worth a dime...unless grace is given by God, there is no faith to be found. Grace must come first, so you can't insist I give a partial answer to your question.

"Specifically"...
The means God uses to apply grace is by faith alone...unto salvation.
That's how we're justified before God.

We aren't justified before men by faith, because they can't see into our hearts.
So we're justified before men by our good deeds.

So, to answer you question, I need to know who you're referring to...God or men.
Before God, it's through faith alone (by the grace of God, of course).
You add men to the equation and you would add works since man doesn't see faith.

hi gd,

Near enough to be 'sola fide' ie justification by faith alone.
My answer to the question (Do I believe in justification by faith alone?) is no, I believe in justification by faith.

So the first point of difference is the word 'alone'. Agreed? Do we move on?

blessings brother

 

[Drew]

Hello gd. You have not answered a question I posed about a text from Romans 8. Please answer it when you can:

Let me force the issue. Please fill in the blank, gd.

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will [blank],

What is Paul saying the "blank" is?

 

[glorydaz]

Hello gd. You have not answered a question I posed about a text from Romans 8. Please answer it when you can:

Let me force the issue. Please fill in the blank, gd.

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will [blank],

What is Paul saying the "blank" is?

Paul is saying we live if we have Christ in us. The natural man doesn't...we do.

Like all of scripture, each verse needs to be taken in context. If we rip a verse out of the middle, it's meaning can be easily misunderstood. When we fail to understand the principles involved, we miss the mark. The principles involved here are the Law of the Spirit and the Law of Sin and Death.
There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus...we have life, so we "live" because Christ lives in us. We mortify the deeds of the body by the Spirit of Christ who lives in us.

If the Holy Spirit dwells in us, we are "in the Spirit". The body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If Christ is in us, we have His righteousness accounted to us...else we would not be in the Spirit to begin with. We would be "none of his".

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Our mortal bodies are dead to sin...we are no longer under it's bondage....we've been "quickened".

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

The natural man...those who live after the flesh (as opposed to those filled with Spirit - the sons of God) will die in their sins. We through the Spirit do "mortify the deeds of the body" by "minding the things of the Spirit" vs 5 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit" for we have reckoned ourselves dead to sin.

It's an accomplished fact when we're in Christ...we are dead to sin. Mortify is put to death...vs 2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Because we're under the law of the Spirit of life, Jesus has made us "free" from the law of sin and death. It isn't something we do, it's something the Spirit does...we do it "by the Spirit". The sons of God are led by the Spirit of God...the flesh has been mortified by Christ's work on the cross.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 

[lovely]

It's clear to me that there is a distinction between the works of the Law and the works of love in Christ done through faith. And after studying this more, it's clear that our justification by faith includes works of faith in love.

Paul makes it clear that we are NOT to make provision for the flesh, deny our flesh, avoid sin, NOT continue in Sin, etc. He also makes it clear that we are to walk worthy of our calling, that we are called to do good works. John and James agree with Paul and say that if we have faith and love, and are not expressing it with our works, then we are liars. Faith and Love are visible by what we do, and will justify us before God as James points out. The Jews had the problem of doing the works (or rather not doing works) without faith and love. Today there is a problem with people confessing they believe, and saying they have love, but not obeying God and doing good works in Christ. The Spirit in us gives us the Power to overcome sin and bear fruit that compels us to obedience out of love and acts in love. Love is eternal, and it is a fulfillment of the Law, but remember John says...

1 John 2:2-6
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him†but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

James 2:18-24
"But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.†Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousnessâ€â€”and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Jesus said...

John 14:15-24
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.†Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?†Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

Jesus also said...

Matthew 25:31-46

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life

 

[Drew]

gd, It is clear, and I mean indisputably clear, that, in context, Paul is not talking about non-believers dying in their sins and setting believers against this. What he is doing is warning believers not to fall back into the old man, but rather to walk in the Spirit and thereby get life:

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

But either way – the text reads as it reads, and I shall not tire of pointing this out. What is Paul saying? He is saying the believer who walks according to the Spirit gets life. And, of course, you cannot allow this to be Paul’s intent, so you evade the import of the text with an argument about Paul cannot mean what he says because you have Paul telling us that believers are dead to sin.

This is characteristic of what you do. You adopt a model that forces you to have to entirely dismiss many clear Pauline statements. Here, you adopt the view that we are dead to sin and somehow believe this allows you say that, when Paul clearly warns believers not to revert to the old man, that he cannot mean what he says since Paul has already declared us dead to sin.

Who is Paul talking to here gd? To whom does he says “don’t live according to the sinful nature but through the Spirit, put to the death the misdeeds of the bodyâ€. To whom does he say this? Believers. And what is the result†eternal life. And, of course, you cannot have this, so we get a story about how it is that non-believers are the ones who live according to the sinful nature. And this story does not work anyway. Why? Because Paul clearly states that those who succeed in putting the misdeeds to death, through the Sprit, get life.

And, of course, you simply cannot allow Paul to be saying this. And yet he clearly is.

This is where we differ. For my part, I accept the truthfulness of all of Paul’s statements. Yes Paul says that the believer is in the Spirit. But, and I cannot emphasize this enough, this does not mean that the believer cannot wrench himself away from the Spirit and revert to the old man. And clearly Paul believes this to be so, since he is talking to believers in the text above. So it is possible to do what I do – take Paul seriously at all points and then develop a model that accounts for all Paul’s claims.

 

[Drew]

Some pointed questions that I trust will put the matter to rest. Here are some words that Paul wrote:

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

Question 1: To whom is Paul speaking?

Drew's answer: To Christian believers
glorydaz answer: Please insert your answer here

Question 2: Verse 13 promises something to those who put to death the misdeeds of the body through the Spirit. What is it that is promised to such people? (Remember unless you want to toss a hand grenade into the sentence, we have Paul promising something to, yes, those who put to death the misdeeds of the body through the Spirit).

Drew's answer: Eternal life (escaping from the mortality of the body)
glorydaz answer: Please insert your answer here

Now I admit - I cheated, copying my answers directly from Paul. We will see what gd says. This should be very interesting.

 

[francisdesales]

It's clear to me that there is a distinction between the works of the Law and the works of love in Christ done through faith. And after studying this more, it's clear that our justification by faith includes works of faith in love.

Paul makes it clear that we are NOT to make provision for the flesh, deny our flesh, avoid sin, NOT continue in Sin, etc. He also makes it clear that we are to walk worthy of our calling, that we are called to do good works. John and James agree with Paul and say that if we have faith and love, and are not expressing it with our works, then we are liars. Faith and Love are visible by what we do, and will justify us before God as James points out. The Jews had the problem of doing the works (or rather not doing works) without faith and love. Today there is a problem with people confessing they believe, and saying they have love, but not obeying God and doing good works in Christ. The Spirit in us gives us the Power to overcome sin and bear fruit that compels us to obedience out of love and acts in love. Love is eternal, and it is a fulfillment of the Law, but remember John says...

1 John 2:2-6
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him†but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

James 2:18-24
"But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.†Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousnessâ€â€”and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Jesus said...

John 14:15-24
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.†Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?†Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

Jesus also said...

Matthew 25:31-46

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life

A good post, but I fear it will fall on deaf ears for those who need to hear it...

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

I hear some people claiming that if we don't walk in the Spirit we won't have LIFE. So let's talk about the spiritual man and his war against the flesh. We're told we're crucified with Christ and that sin has no more dominion over us...yet we still see sin on a regular basis.

We're to "reckon ourselves" dead to sin. We aren't to walk by sight and let our experience dictate our belief..we're to believe the Word and consider it done.

We see here that Paul can't even address the Corinthian church as "spiritual"...there is strife and divisions...clearly not walking in the Spirit.

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

We know, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (Jn. 3:6) When we're regenerated, we're born of the Spirit. We're not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh, nor have any "confidence" in the flesh. The flesh must die...those things we lust after and those things we take confidence in. That includes any good works instigated by the flesh.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would....And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Even things begun in the Spirit can become things of the flesh. Those things that began in faith can be diverted into a striving of the flesh.

Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

There is "fleshly wisdom" that is as contrary to the Spirit as fleshly lust. It's still the flesh, and the flesh must be put to death when we walk in the Spirit.

For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

Now we come to Romans 8...

We have those in the flesh (none of his) and those in the Spirit (Holy Spirit dwelling in them).
Two groups of people.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Is our confidence in our flesh? Are there divisions among us? Do we accuse our brethern? Is there dissension and strife? I guess we all die. Either that or this verse is talking about our walk - how we live our life here on earth and not our eternal salvation. Will we be "old" babes in Christ...never able to gain victory over this body of death that we are attached to until we're given our resurrection body? Some will and some mature in Christ.

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

We're either the sons of God or we're not. But we have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear. The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit...that we are the children of God.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

[Drew]

I hear some people claiming that if we don't walk in the Spirit we won't have LIFE.

Indeed, and one of these persons is St. Paul:

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

… we're to believe the Word and consider it done

You beg the question here – you simply assume that “its all done†at one point in time. This is the very thing we are discussing. You cannot simply “claim†the position you hold to be true.

The flesh must die...those things we lust after and those things we take confidence in. That includes any good works instigated by the flesh.

Indeed. But as you know full well no one is saying that works instigated by the flesh accomplish a thing.

Even things begun in the Spirit can become things of the flesh. Those things that began in faith can be diverted into a striving of the flesh.

Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Yes, but this does not change what Paul plainly says – life goes to the person who walks in the Spirit.

Now we come to Romans 8...

We have those in the flesh (none of his) and those in the Spirit (Holy Spirit dwelling in them).
Two groups of people.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Maybe so, but this does not change the clear and indisputable fact that when Paul makes his admonition to not walk in the flesh, but instead walk in the Spirit and thereby live, he is talking to believers. Your position cannot allow this, of course, but it is clearly there in the Scriptures:

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

Paul is clearly aware of the possibility of slipping back into the old man. It is very hard to discuss these matters with someone who cannot, or will not, apply the proper rules of interpretation in respect to english sentences.

I will ask you again the question that I am confident you simply do not want to answer:

Who is Paul addressing here gd?

The obvious answer is believers. But, of course, your view does not allow Paul to address believers with such an admonition.

But there it is, as clear as day: Paul is addressing his remarks to believers. To suggest otherwise is to re-work the laws of English composition. And since he is talking to believers, he is telling them exactly what the words tell us – believers, you get life by walking in the Spirit.

What you are doing is trying to say that Paul can’t be telling believers to not slip back into the old man, since we have left that behind. Well, we have left it behind, but Paul clearly thinks it is possible to slip back. You are basically put in the awkward position of saying that Paul is contradicting himself.

 

[Drew]

Paul is not denying “salvation by good works†in Ephesians 2, he is denying “salvation by doing the works of the Law of Moses†(the Torah). However, this view appears vulnerable to the following critique: Since Torah contains moral prescriptions (such as the 10 commandments), any statement that doing the works of Torah does not save really amounts to a statement that good works do not save. As will be demonstrated, this objection turns out to have no force.

As per an argument provided earlier in this thread, the “works†of verse 9 (that do not save) are the works of Torah. As that argument shows, Paul is focusing on the role of the Torah as an ethnic delimiter, not as a code of good moral conduct. That is why Paul weaves circumcision into the argument. In verse 11, he contrasts the status of the Gentile by birth (not by good works) to that of the Jew's status as being circumcised. This is not a good works issue - Paul describes a dividing line that is ethnic, and circumcision is the hallmark "work of Torah" - it is not a "good work".

In verse 12, Paul describes the Gentile as not being a citizen of Israel and being an outsider of to the covenants. Again, this is not relevant to any argument about good works. It is a claim about the Jew's status as a member of an ethnic group. And it is the Torah that is the charter of the Jews as a people - it is the Torah that marks them out as distinct from the Gentile. So, once again, this is not the kind of argument one should be mounting if a denial of salvation by good works is on the table. And it is precisely the argument that denial salvation by works of Torah is Paul’s intent.

Let's be clear here - while the Torah indeed has a "moral" or "good works" dimension, Paul is focusing on its function of splitting the world into two camps - Jews and Gentiles. And the Torah does this through things like Sabbath, circumcision, and kosher purity laws.

We already know that Paul sees Jew and Gentile as both morally bankrupt (Romans 3). The rhetoric of the argument (in Ephesian 2:11 and following) is clear: Paul is saying that the abolition of the Law of Moses has brought Jew and Gentile into one family. Therefore, Paul is clearly seeing the Law of Moses as an ethnic delimiter. If you are going to make the point that Jew and Gentile are in the same family, the perfect way to do this is to undermine the function of Torah as an ethnic delimiter. Thus the perfect thing to say that "the works of the Law of Moses do not justify"

 

[stranger]

glorydaz wrote:

I hear some people claiming that if we don't walk in the Spirit we won't have LIFE. So let's talk about the spiritual man and his war against the flesh.

If a Christian isn't walking in the Spirit then he must be walking in the in flesh.

We're told we're crucified with Christ and that sin has no more dominion over us...yet we still see sin on a regular basis.

Yes, that's our true status in Christ.

We're to "reckon ourselves" dead to sin. We aren't to walk by sight and let our experience dictate our belief..we're to believe the Word and consider it done.

Yes, that's our calling.

We see here that Paul can't even address the Corinthian church as "spiritual"...there is strife and divisions...clearly not walking in the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 3"]And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Agreed, clearly not walking in the Spirit.

We know, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (Jn. 3:6) When we're regenerated, we're born of the Spirit. We're not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh, nor have any "confidence" in the flesh. The flesh must die...those things we lust after and those things we take confidence in. That includes any good works instigated by the flesh.
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would....24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Agreed, our calling is clear.

Even things begun in the Spirit can become things of the flesh. Those things that began in faith can be diverted into a striving of the flesh.
Galatians 3:3"]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
There is "fleshly wisdom" that is as contrary to the Spirit as fleshly lust. It's still the flesh, and the flesh must be put to death when we walk in the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

Agreed, having begun to walk in the Spirit , something went wrong and these believers are now walking in the flesh.

Now we come to Romans 8...

We have those in the flesh (none of his) and those in the Spirit (Holy Spirit dwelling in them).
Two groups of people.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Are you talking about Christians and non Christians? Prior to this you talked about Christians walking in the Spirit or Christians walking in the flesh.

Is our confidence in our flesh? Are there divisions among us? Do we accuse our brethern? Is there dissension and strife? I guess we all die. Either that or this verse is talking about our walk - how we live our life here on earth and not our eternal salvation. Will we be "old" babes in Christ...never able to gain victory over this body of death that we are attached to until we're given our resurrection body? Some will and some mature in Christ.

It's worse than that - some appear to believe that when we depart this life the flesh nature will die despite the fact that this is not God's appointed means to put the flesh (nature) to death.

v13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

We're either the sons of God or we're not.

Are you talking about Chrisitians and non Christians again? Or are you saying that ultimately our walk will prove if we are sons of God or not? V13 is addressed to believers!

But we have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear. The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit...that we are the children of God.
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Your reiterating our calling as believers - I agree that if you walk according to the Spirit - the Spirit will bear witness that we are the children of God.

Q What witness will the Spirit bear to Christians who walk according to the flesh? Is the Spirit's witness found in v13?

 

[glorydaz]

glorydaz wrote:

I hear some people claiming that if we don't walk in the Spirit we won't have LIFE. So let's talk about the spiritual man and his war against the flesh.

If a Christian isn't walking in the Spirit then he must be walking in the in flesh.
[quote:1ufr28mz] We're told we're crucified with Christ and that sin has no more dominion over us...yet we still see sin on a regular basis.

Yes, that's our true status in Christ.

We're to "reckon ourselves" dead to sin. We aren't to walk by sight and let our experience dictate our belief..we're to believe the Word and consider it done.

Yes, that's our calling.

We see here that Paul can't even address the Corinthian church as "spiritual"...there is strife and divisions...clearly not walking in the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 3"]And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Agreed, clearly not walking in the Spirit. [/quote:1ufr28mz]
As long as we're in this body of flesh, we will not have total victory over the flesh and sin. That involves the process of sanctification...we are set apart and being made holy. What Paul is referring to is the state of our governance. They that are after the flesh do "mind" the things of the flesh, and they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Carnally "minded" and spiritually "minded".

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

As you say, our calling is clear. When we believe, we are regenerated and born of the Spirit...sons of God. Walking after the Spirit does NOT mean we will never heed the flesh, but we are no longer governed by the old sin nature. Sin has no more dominion over us.

We know, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (Jn. 3:6) When we're regenerated, we're born of the Spirit. We're not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh, nor have any "confidence" in the flesh. The flesh must die...those things we lust after and those things we take confidence in. That includes any good works instigated by the flesh.
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would....24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Agreed, our calling is clear.
[quote:1ufr28mz]Even things begun in the Spirit can become things of the flesh. Those things that began in faith can be diverted into a striving of the flesh.
Galatians 3:3"]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
There is "fleshly wisdom" that is as contrary to the Spirit as fleshly lust. It's still the flesh, and the flesh must be put to death when we walk in the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

Agreed, having begun to walk in the Spirit , something went wrong and these believers are now walking in the flesh.

Now we come to Romans 8...

We have those in the flesh (none of his) and those in the Spirit (Holy Spirit dwelling in them).
Two groups of people.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Are you talking about Christians and non Christians? Prior to this you talked about Christians walking in the Spirit or Christians walking in the flesh.[/quote:1ufr28mz]
Believers who listen to their old sin nature and their fleshly desires grieve and quench the Holy Spirit and their walk suffers...their maturity is arrested.

Is our confidence in our flesh? Are there divisions among us? Do we accuse our brethern? Is there dissension and strife? I guess we all die. Either that or this verse is talking about our walk - how we live our life here on earth and not our eternal salvation. Will we be "old" babes in Christ...never able to gain victory over this body of death that we are attached to until we're given our resurrection body? Some will and some mature in Christ.

It's worse than that - some appear to believe that when we depart this life the flesh nature will die despite the fact that this is not God's appointed means to put the flesh (nature) to death.

[quote:1ufr28mz]v13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

We're either the sons of God or we're not.

Are you talking about Chrisitians and non Christians again? Or are you saying that ultimately our walk will prove if we are sons of God or not? V13 is addressed to believers![/quote:1ufr28mz]
Verse 13 is talking about unbelievers (live after the flesh) these "mind" the flesh...are governed by the flesh, and believers (who are dead to sin)...the deeds of the body are mortified "through the Spirit". ie...sanctification.

But we have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear. The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit...that we are the children of God.
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Your reiterating our calling as believers - I agree that if you walk according to the Spirit - the Spirit will bear witness that we are the children of God.

Q What witness will the Spirit bear to Christians who walk according to the flesh? Is the Spirit's witness found in v13?

Those who "live after" the flesh are unbelievers. The Spirit is "sanctifying" the believer...it's through His power and His leading that the deeds of the body are brought under subjection.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

 

[stranger]

hi glorydaz,

A clarification is needed on Rom 8:13.

We seem to disagree on whom Paul is addressing in Rom 8:13. I say he is addressing believers. Are you sure Paul is addressing unbelievers?

If so, can a Christian sin?
When a Christian does sin is he living after the flesh?

Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

 

[francisdesales]

Those who "live after" the flesh are unbelievers. The Spirit is "sanctifying" the believer...it's through His power and His leading that the deeds of the body are brought under subjection.

"Romans 8:13" For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Not according to Scriptures, such as James 1-2.

Those who have a dead faith still are considered "believers". "Romans" is clearly written to a community of believers. It is the quality of their faith that is in question here, the believers who are walking in the flesh. Men don't go from "believers" to "unbelievers" when they tell a white lie or envy someone else's car... Believers who live after the flesh will die, that is Paul's clear statement. He repeats this to the Corinthians, the Hebrews, and the Galatians... Naturally, John says the same thing, as does Peter.

And of course, this brings up the question about OSAS and falling away and becoming an unbeliever. You seem to be contradicting that doctrine, now, as ANY sin is now "proof" that you never WERE a believer in the first place. Hardly a consoling doctrine - I must be absolutely perfect in life, otherwise, I am now an unbeliever and was just kidding myself and was never a believer to begin with...

 

[Drew]

Verse 13 is talking about unbelievers ......

Simply impossible.

That you can conclude that verse has anything to do with unbelievers proves beyond doubt that you allow your pre-conceived framework to trump the clear meaning of what is written.

I absolutely, positively, dab-smack guarantee you that no english teacher, who is objective, could read the following english sentence as entailing a reference to unbelievers. It is clearly directed at a single set of persons - believers.

10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship

If you take such liberties in re-working the clear meaning of a text, it is no wonder that you can "see" the scriptures as fitting into any framework of your choice.

 

[glorydaz]

Hello gd. You have not answered a question I posed about a text from Romans 8. Please answer it when you can:

Let me force the issue. Please fill in the blank, gd.

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will [blank],

What is Paul saying the "blank" is?

I have answered it....I simply don't play "fill in the blank" games. I'll explain it, in depth, so you can stop this nonsense about "blanks". The Word is not a questionnaire. It's to be rightly divided, not turned into a quickie quiz where error can easily come into play.

Paul is saying believers live according to the Spirit and will live.

If you're looking for an answer that you can twist to say something other than what this chapter is saying, you won't get it. It isn't there. You do have a propensity to take one verse out of context and try and make it say something it does not. The answer lies in every word before and after that one verse. There are two groups of people...the natural man (not having the Spirit), and the Spiritual man (those having the Spirit. Those having the Spirit have LIFE.

Believers have life when they're born of God. Believers are under the LAW of the Spirit of LIFE...we have been freed from the Law of sin and death. The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us because we are IN CHRIST, and His righteousness has been imputed unto us.

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The natural man is governed by the flesh...believers are governed by the Spirit.
It's the carnal mind of the natural man that is enmity against God. Those born of God are spiritually minded and have life. The natural man can not be subject to the law of God and cannot please God.

5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Believers are not IN THE FLESH, but IN THE SPIRIT...whoever has the indwelling Spirit is NOT IN THE FLESH..those in the flesh ARE NONE OF HIS.

Do you hear what Paul is saying here? Those in the flesh are not believers.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

We have been ADOPTED into the family of God. We are NOT DEBTORS TO THE FLESH, for Christ has freed us from the bondage of sin and given us LIFE. Anyone who has the Spirit of God is led by the Spirit of God. Why are you preaching the spirit of bondage again to fear? Those who LIVE AFTER...do you hear that? We have been given life...we live under the LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE. And yet you claim believers are still debtors to the flesh. They aren't. We are no longer IN BONDAGE to sin and death. That is the work of the cross and not something you can take away by attempting to make this verse say something it doesn't. It just isn't going to happen.

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Believers are children and HEIRS. We have been bought with a price.

16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

This liberty is the freedom from the bondage we were all under until Christ condemned sin in the flesh. Now it has no more dominion over us.

20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Believers are still living in this body of sin...we still "groan within ourselves" for we still wait for the redemption of our bodies. We wait patiently...while the Spirit mortifies the flesh and helps our infirmities....which is all those things we all do that is of the flesh and not spiritual. None are in total submission to the leading of the Spirit...to claim such is but to fool yourself. Others can see quite plainly that the flesh still takes over and "self" is ever present. It's our "future hope" to be in perfect tune with the Spirit of God.

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24For we are saved by hope: but
hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

All believers are BEING CONFORMED...we aren't conforming ourselves. We can't do the work of the Holy Spirit, we can only submit to His leading. All believers are led by the Spirit of Christ...we are sons according to adoption.

27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God freely gives....God justifies. We are more than conquerors through HIM. We don't earn salvation by good deeds or the fruit of the Spirit. It is God who justifies...not our faith or our good deeds. Who are you to take a verse from this amazing chapter of assurance and lay a charge against the elect of God? NOTHING CAN SEPARATE US FROM THE LOVE OF GOD. I might add, you'd better hope reacting in the flesh doesn't discount you from life...lest none would be saved. If the Spirit of God lives in you...you do not LIVE after the flesh but after the Spirit. It's just that simple.

31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[glorydaz]

gd, It is clear, and I mean indisputably clear, that, in context, Paul is not talking about non-believers dying in their sins and setting believers against this. What he is doing is warning believers not to fall back into the old man, but rather to walk in the Spirit and thereby get life:

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

But either way – the text reads as it reads, and I shall not tire of pointing this out. What is Paul saying? He is saying the believer who walks according to the Spirit gets life. And, of course, you cannot allow this to be Paul’s intent, so you evade the import of the text with an argument about Paul cannot mean what he says because you have Paul telling us that believers are dead to sin.

This is characteristic of what you do. You adopt a model that forces you to have to entirely dismiss many clear Pauline statements. Here, you adopt the view that we are dead to sin and somehow believe this allows you say that, when Paul clearly warns believers not to revert to the old man, that he cannot mean what he says since Paul has already declared us dead to sin.

Who is Paul talking to here gd? To whom does he says “don’t live according to the sinful nature but through the Spirit, put to the death the misdeeds of the bodyâ€. To whom does he say this? Believers. And what is the result†eternal life. And, of course, you cannot have this, so we get a story about how it is that non-believers are the ones who live according to the sinful nature. And this story does not work anyway. Why? Because Paul clearly states that those who succeed in putting the misdeeds to death, through the Sprit, get life.

And, of course, you simply cannot allow Paul to be saying this. And yet he clearly is.

This is where we differ. For my part, I accept the truthfulness of all of Paul’s statements. Yes Paul says that the believer is in the Spirit. But, and I cannot emphasize this enough, this does not mean that the believer cannot wrench himself away from the Spirit and revert to the old man. And clearly Paul believes this to be so, since he is talking to believers in the text above. So it is possible to do what I do – take Paul seriously at all points and then develop a model that accounts for all Paul’s claims.

"Ye are not in the flesh..."Do you bother to read that part? No. You jump right down to a verse you can claim is saying believers live in the flesh. You directly contradict what Paul has stated quite clearly. I know you like to ignore how Paul explains that those who have the Spirit of God do not live after the flesh. How we are NOT debtors to the flesh...if Christ be in you, the body is dead and the Spirit is life, but you do injustice to Paul when you insist on misinterpreting what Paul states. Those with Christ DO NOT live after the flesh. We are not carnally minded but spiritually minded. One is the natural man and one is the spiritual man. The spiritual man may not live up to your expectations, but it does not change his status before the Lord.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption,

 

[glorydaz]

hi glorydaz,

A clarification is needed on Rom 8:13.

We seem to disagree on whom Paul is addressing in Rom 8:13. I say he is addressing believers. Are you sure Paul is addressing unbelievers?

If so, can a Christian sin?
When a Christian does sin is he living after the flesh?

Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

Paul is clearly aware of the possibility of slipping back into the old man. It is very hard to discuss these matters with someone who cannot, or will not, apply the proper rules of interpretation in respect to english sentences.

I'll address both these points because they're basically saying the same thing.

A believer isn't LIVING after the flesh because he is not governed by the flesh. He is under the Law of the Spirit of Life. He has Christ in him and is governed by the Spirit. He may not be perfect, but he is being perfected...sanctification is a process.

Yes, a Christian can and will sin, but it has been forgiven at the cross. We confess our sins so we can walk in fellowship with God, not because we will lose our salvation when we sin. Of course Paul is clearly aware, not only possibility but certainty, that we will slip back into the old man. Can anyone in all honesty claim he never reacts in the flesh...he never follows his own will instead of the Lord's...that he always walks after the leading of the Holy Spirit?

Why do we groan and wait for the redemption of our body? It's because we still live in this body of flesh. Paul has already addressed the fact that believers live after the Spirit. Those who live after the flesh are not God's sons. So when Paul speaks of those who "live according to the sinful nature", he is not speaking of believers. We do not...as Paul has stated clearly...live in the flesh any longer. We have liberty...freed from the bondage of sin and death. That is not something we gain for ourselves, it is something Christ did when He condemned sin in the flesh. It has no more dominion over the believer. Does that mean we still don't follow after the flesh in different areas of our walk? Can you seriously claim that to be the case?

Does the Spirit lead someone to get frustrated and even angry when they're disagreed with. Does the Spirit endorse contention and strife? Does the Spirit lead someone to claim they have their own righteousness or contribute to their own salvation, when it's a gift from God? Does the Spirit lead you to grumble at your kids or complain about your job? Does the Spirit cause you to doubt and to fear when troubling circumstances come upon you. Do you live in perfect peace and harmony with all men? Do you think more highly of yourself than you ought? Those are all the old man, and every single person battles with self. Denying self is a long process over many years and it will pop up in one form or another until we put off this body of sin.

We don't LIVE after the flesh, and we don't SERVE SIN. Our old man was crucified with him.... it's a work of the Holy Spirit known as sanctification..an ongoing process.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Some allow their own intellect to reign...the Holy Spirit renews our minds...that's an ongoing process.
Some trust in themselves for their food and clothing...the Holy Spirit gives us more faith so we can trust fully in the Lord for everything. That's an ongoing process.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Does our body "feel" dead to sin? If Christ is in us, it is dead to sin whether we think it is or not. That's why we're called to walk by faith and not by sight. We know our every thought is not perfect. We know we rely on our own strength when we should be trusting in him. It's a lack of faith to consider our personal experience instead of believing we are dead to sin. It's a lack of faith to realize sin has no dominion over us, whatsoever. But it's common to man...even the spiritual man to fear at times, to doubt at times, to put "self" before the Spirit at times, because we are still in this body of sin and will be until we're given an incorruptible spiritual body.

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.