Yet u ask:
It's obvious he mentions their past state AND their current state BOTH in verse 5. And it's obvious that I recognized that as i actually put that very observation in parentheses. He also makes promises about their future in verse 7
Eph 2:7 (ESV) in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ . Yet your exegesis has it ALL about the past. That seems like an unsubtle and easy to spot false assertion toward the Eph 2 passage, in any context. Even the one verse has past and present tense.
Humm...
All about the past? Here is the first "misrepresentation". Here is what I wrote, which you didn't paste or respond to:
"Yes, verses 18 and following
are talking about the Christian and how both Jew and Gentile are members of God's "household", verses 1-3 are not and these are the verses that lead up to verses 4-6 which you erroneously claim proves that we can STOP BELIEVING AND BE SAVED ANYWAY. Verses 1-3 are concerning the person while he was "following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience" and he was "dead in the trespasses and sins" and they were "by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind".
That was then...This is now
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."
This is pretty straightforward. Even though when they
were "dead in trespasses" God made them "alive together with Christ". They
were worthless sinners, as we all are, and didn't deserve the gift ("by Grace you have been saved") of faith, given
while they were still in their sins".
Verses 1-3 are about Paul's audience BEFORE conversion. The verses you quote are DURING their Christian walk. You are trying to draw the false dichotomy that Eph. 2:5-7 somehow DISPROVE Jethro's contention. He wrote:
"Show me where it says I can stop calling on the name of the Lord for the forgiveness of sins and stop depending on the blood of Christ, and still be saved."
To which, you responded:
Ephesians 2:5-6
English Standard Version (ESV)
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
What's "obvious" is that you think these verses counter Jethro's claim that if a person stops "calling on the name of the Lord for the forgiveness of sins" and stops "depending on the blood of Christ" he can't "still be saved."
Why else would you post it, and the others?
Actually, it's your turn to answer, but I'll go ahead and answer your question since you phrase it in a manner that misrepresents my case. Not to mention that you put your answer to it later and call it my answer.
Of course i do not think people that do not believe in Christ will be saved.
Nice try. I never once mentioned people who "do not believe in Christ", I asked you about people who "stop having faith", in other words (if you actually need them), people who are "saved" then apostacize, you know, what the entire thread is about. Should I cry about "misrepresentation" now? Should I question your motives?
Whether there are people that "stop" believing or not, i have no idea.
Have you ever known anyone who "showed" their "true faith" then apostacized? We are not talking about non-Christians here, but apostates, people who are once saved then reject Christ.
I can only speculate (which James says is evil), so i try not to. I admit, it's hard not to be judgmental of people. Even you.
James 2:4 (NIV)
4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
Which leads me back to the question i had for you about Abraham that you never answered.
[
Your turn to answer. Does the Bible ever say that Abraham (after his name change) was un-saved?
Doesn't the Bible say he has "saving faith"? Isn't that what you agree with above? How do we disagree here? Are you saying he could have apostacized later? I don't get where you are going here.
My question is a yes or no question. You cannot answer it with four questions of your own.
I thought it was implied. You know it doesn't. If you need it spelled out, No. The Bible doesn't say Abraham was "un-saved". Now, I guess it's my turn. So what? what does this prove?
Do you have a Scripture that shows Abraham ever "stopped" believing in God to the point where the Bible says he became "un-saved"?
Again, no. And again, so what?
But you know what, just don't bother if you cannot reply without misrepresenting my case, statements, thoughts or opinions. As i've said to you at least 6 times. I pretty much know my own opinion and don't need you misrepresenting it.
See above. Remove the plank from you own eye first.
which you erroneously claim proves that we can STOP BELIEVING AND BE SAVED ANYWAY.
That's just stupid. I never said that. You did. It's one of those cases where i'm judging your motives here. But as you say, i just LoL.
Then why in the world did you post Eph. 2 in response to Jethro's contention above? Here it is again:
"Show me where it says I can stop calling on the name of the Lord for the forgiveness of sins and stop depending on the blood of Christ, and still be saved."
If I assume you are responding directly to Jethro's contention, I'll get labeled someone with shady "motives" or I'll hear whining about "misrepresentation", so why don't you just clear up how these verses tie into OSAS and how they relate to Jethro's contention above. Thanks.