The Meaning Of Justified

[reba]

[MENTION=94584]chessman[/MENTION], I was making a comparison to few scriptures in the OT. A word search of the word ' IF ' brings up many and in context....

Exo_19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Deu_11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

 

[farouk]

The 'obedience of faith' is not meritorious. One doesn't become justified one day, and then unjustified the next. 'He that hath begun a good work in you will peform it until the day of Jesus Christ; (Philippians 1).

 

[Deborah13]

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

Could Abraham have done these works without faith? So in taking it back to what was the cause of the works "faith". James is not teaching anything different than Paul in Romans and Eph, at least.
If he is, then one of them is lying and their message should not be in the Bible and we all know that that is Not True.

What is the root cause of our salvation? Jesus and His works at the cross.
What is the root of God's grace to us, how is it available? Jesus and His works at the cross.
What is the root of faith? Jesus and His works at the cross.

Most of the time I see the Word say, "stop navel gazing" look at Jesus and the Holy Spirit will guide you into All righteousness.

But in this case in James, I see him saying, "do some navel gazing" and see where you stand in faith. If you say you've got then do it. How do we do that? By looking at Jesus.
Romans 10:17 KJV
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[chessman]

[MENTION=94584]chessman[/MENTION], I was making a comparison to few scriptures in the OT. A word search of the word ' IF ' brings up many and in context....

Exo_19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Deu_11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Ex 19 is about Israel, not Abraham. Abraham was long dead then. So that's not a Scripture of God talking to Abraham.

Gen 26 is again God making promises to Isaac, again Abraham is long dead. It's true God keeps his promises. That's why OSAS makes sense.

Deut 11, is again to Israel after the Exodus and God's promise to them.
Deuteronomy 11:13-18
English Standard Version (ESV)
13 “And if you will indeed obey my commandments that I command you today, to love the Lord your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul, 14 he[a] will give the rain for your land in its season, the early rain and the later rain, that you may gather in your grain and your wine and your oil. 15 And he will give grass in your fields for your livestock, and you shall eat and be full. 16 Take care lest your heart be deceived, and you turn aside and serve other gods and worship them; 17 then the anger of the Lord will be kindled against you, and he will shut up the heavens, so that there will be no rain, and the land will yield no fruit, and you will perish quickly off the good land that the Lord is giving you.

I meant for you to reference the Scripture in context that said Abraham had to obey the rules of the house, or he'd be cast out. Un-saved, that is.

I'm still looking for that Biblical example, but neither [MENTION=3759]dadof10[/MENTION] or others posting here have provided that verse.

 

[Deborah13]

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

I can only think that Abraham did this to the best of his ability from the heart and the rest was God's grace.

Why because Jesus was the only one who truly ever did this perfectly.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The 'obedience of faith' is not meritorious. One doesn't become justified one day, and then unjustified the next. 'He that hath begun a good work in you will peform it until the day of Jesus Christ; (Philippians 1).

Then explain Paul's warning to the Spirit-filled Galatians about turning back to the ceremonial law for justification and what that means in regard to being justified in Christ. Then explain why the repentant church of the Hebrews was also warned about turning back to the law.

It's amazing to me that we have these two clear examples in our Bibles right under our fat noses of saved people being warned not to turn back from the justification in Christ they have received, yet we insist either 1) it's impossible to do that, or 2) even if you do that you're still justified by faith in Christ's blood. Amazing to me.

(Chessman, I'm back to my work week that cuts my forum time to almost nothing, but this is what I wanted to say in response to your last post to me.)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I meant for you to reference the Scripture in context that said Abraham had to obey the rules of the house, or he'd be cast out. Un-saved, that is.

Short on time...it's in Genesis 17 or 18.

I'm still looking for that Biblical example, but neither [MENTION=3759]dadof10[/MENTION] or others posting here have provided that verse.

Why did Abraham have to fail in order to prove OSAS is not true? I don't get it.


Back to my brain surgeries...next!

 

[farouk]

The 'obedience of faith' is not meritorious. One doesn't become justified one day, and then unjustified the next. 'He that hath begun a good work in you will peform it until the day of Jesus Christ; (Philippians 1).

Then explain Paul's warning to the Spirit-filled Galatians about turning back to the ceremonial law for justification and what that means in regard to being justified in Christ. Then explain why the repentant church of the Hebrews was also warned about turning back to the law.

It's amazing to me that we have these two clear examples in our Bibles right under our fat noses of saved people being warned not to turn back from the justification in Christ they have received, yet we insist either 1) it's impossible to do that, or 2) even if you do that you're still justified by faith in Christ's blood. Amazing to me.

(Chessman, I'm back to my work week that cuts my forum time to almost nothing, but this is what I wanted to say in response to your last post to me.)

Jethro:

But what makes you think that apostates were true believers in the first place?

Blessings.

 

[chessman]

There are indeed to many verses with "if" in them to search and study them all. But only 234 with Abraham in the verse. Here's one:

Genesis 17:9
And God said to Abraham, “As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations.

Which does not sound like an "if" statement. When God speaks, He has no need to hypothesize about future events.

Take Genesis 18:18-19 for example:
seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him.
For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.â€

And i've gone through the rest of the 234. Nothing OSAS=no, in any of them.

I also searched for verses with BOTH Abraham and IF. Only 9. None teach OSAS =no. I did find this one interesting to the subject:

John 8:39 ESV
[ You Are of Your Father the Devil ] They answered him, “Abraham is our father.†Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works Abraham did,

And this one:

John 8:52 ESV
The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’

Wow, and this one:

Romans 4:2 ESV
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

And wow, wow:

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

Galatians 3:29
And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

So Gal 3:18 or 3:29 would have been the perfect Scripture to say we are heirs of God's promise IF we follow the rules. But that's not what they say. They say IF we are Christ's and heirs to God's promises.

Not man's promises.

 

[chessman]

Why did Abraham have to fail in order to prove OSAS is not true? I don't get it.

Because the OP is making the argument that James 2:21 is a proof text that OSAS =no using Abraham as an example. That's why I asked the question about where Abraham is now (answer = with God). It was a question meant to simplify the logic of trying to use Abraham, not complicate the discussion. Obviously Abraham is with God, so how could he ever be the Biblical example to show OSAS = no? It doesn't make any sense. The only way it would make sense would be to quote a Scripture that said Abraham backslide, apostatized, sinned, etc, "un-justifed" himself right out of salvation. There is no such scripture.

And frankly, having children that break house rules and move out, is a far cry from Biblical proof.

 

[chessman]

Ephesians 2:5-6
English Standard Version (ESV)
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Now, if we HAVE been saved(past tense) even while dead and currently seated (present tense) with Him, can you show any Scripture that has God un-saving us based on further trespasses or booting us out of our seat?

Yet u ask:

Do you think he is talking about Christians in their present state, or in their PAST state, before conversion?

It's obvious he mentions their past state AND their current state BOTH in verse 5. And it's obvious that I recognized that as i actually put that very observation in parentheses. He also makes promises about their future in verse 7

Eph 2:7 (ESV) in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ . Yet your exegesis has it ALL about the past. That seems like an unsubtle and easy to spot false assertion toward the Eph 2 passage, in any context. Even the one verse has past and present tense.

Please answer the question from my last post. Are you seriously trying to make the case that we can STOP believing, stop having faith, and be saved anyway? Yes or no. That is, after all, what Jethro said and you responded to.

Actually, it's your turn to answer, but I'll go ahead and answer your question since you phrase it in a manner that misrepresents my case. Not to mention that you put your answer to it later and call it my answer.

Of course i do not think people that do not believe in Christ will be saved. Whether there are people that "stop" believing or not, i have no idea. I can only speculate (which James says is evil), so i try not to. I admit, it's hard not to be judgmental of people. Even you.

James 2:4 (NIV)
4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

Which leads me back to the question i had for you about Abraham that you never answered.

[
Your turn to answer. Does the Bible ever say that Abraham (after his name change) was un-saved?

Doesn't the Bible say he has "saving faith"? Isn't that what you agree with above? How do we disagree here? Are you saying he could have apostacized later? I don't get where you are going here.

My question is a yes or no question. You cannot answer it with four questions of your own.

Do you have a Scripture that shows Abraham ever "stopped" believing in God to the point where the Bible says he became "un-saved"?

But you know what, just don't bother if you cannot reply without misrepresenting my case, statements, thoughts or opinions. As i've said to you at least 6 times. I pretty much know my own opinion and don't need you misrepresenting it.

which you erroneously claim proves that we can STOP BELIEVING AND BE SAVED ANYWAY.

That's just stupid. I never said that. You did. It's one of those cases where i'm judging your motives here. But as you say, i just LoL.

 

[reba]

[MENTION=94584]chessman[/MENTION], I was making a comparison to few scriptures in the OT. A word search of the word ' IF ' brings up many and in context....

Exo_19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Deu_11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Ex 19 is about Israel, not Abraham. Abraham was long dead then. So that's not a Scripture of God talking to Abraham.

Gen 26 is again God making promises to Isaac, again Abraham is long dead. It's true God keeps his promises. That's why OSAS makes sense.

Deut 11, is again to Israel after the Exodus and God's promise to them.
Deuteronomy 11:13-18
English Standard Version (ESV)
13 “And if you will indeed obey my commandments that I command you today, to love the Lord your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul, 14 he[a] will give the rain for your land in its season, the early rain and the later rain, that you may gather in your grain and your wine and your oil. 15 And he will give grass in your fields for your livestock, and you shall eat and be full. 16 Take care lest your heart be deceived, and you turn aside and serve other gods and worship them; 17 then the anger of the Lord will be kindled against you, and he will shut up the heavens, so that there will be no rain, and the land will yield no fruit, and you will perish quickly off the good land that the Lord is giving you.

I meant for you to reference the Scripture in context that said Abraham had to obey the rules of the house, or he'd be cast out. Un-saved, that is.

I'm still looking for that Biblical example, but neither [MENTION=3759]dadof10[/MENTION] or others posting here have provided that verse.

Chessman I apologize for speaking so loosely... I know what you said is correct, Abraham being dead and all that... ... Believe you me I will be much more careful in my choice of words....

To my understanding this verse Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. implies Abraham had to obey.... I singled out Abraham in word when my thoughts were of the OT people of God in general.

 

[reba]

I can only think that Abraham did this to the best of his ability from the heart and the rest was God's grace.

Why because Jesus was the only one who truly ever did this perfectly.

Thanks Deb for getting the meaning of what I said....

 

[reba]

Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.


Obedience mattered

 

[Deborah13]

Obedience mattered

Yep, Obedience still matters. At least if we want to be good kids and honor our Father and be effective in what He has for each of us to do.

Nice to know our Dad knows it all and doesn't get it wrong.

 

[chessman]

To my understanding this verse Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. implies Abraham had to obey.... I singled out Abraham in word when my thoughts were of the OT people of God in general.

I understand that it is often easy to misunderstand people when communicating via short posts or email or anything except face to face.

I enjoy hearing other people's insight into passages, even if i disagree with them.

I doubt that we would disagree on much really.

But i do disagree with your use of Gen 26:5 to answer the question of whether OSAS= no is taught there. Here's why:

Because Abraham obeyed God's voice... [what]?

It's not salvation that is in view. That's a pretty far stretch to just assume it. Nowhere does this text say salvation. In fact what it says is because Abraham listened to God and followed through God gave Abraham's descendants land. I don't necessarily stretch that to equal giving them their salvation.

Gen 26:4 (NIV) I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, 5 because Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions.†6 So Isaac stayed in Gerar.

James says because Abraham believed it was counted to him as righteousness. Now that's pretty clearly talking about salvation (even though it doesn't come right out and use the word salvation). But here in Gen 26, we have the words lands and offsprings.

Anyway, i just don't see OSAS (no or yes) in Gen 26. But i do see another of God's promises being fulfilled.

And again, my view/case is that OSAS is true and logical and Biblical, because of who God/Jesus is, not me or anyone else.

Let's just say Abraham did not quite do"everything God required of him, [not keeping all] my commands, my decrees and my instructions.â€

I still say God knew enough about Abraham ( past, present and future) to change his name and keep all his promises to him, including salvation.

 

[dadof10]

I meant for you to reference the Scripture in context that said Abraham had to obey the rules of the house, or he'd be cast out. Un-saved, that is.

I'm still looking for that Biblical example, but neither [MENTION=3759]dadof10[/MENTION] or others posting here have provided that verse.

Why would I provide a verse for a position I don't hold? GOD DOESN'T CAST US OUT, WE CAST OURSELVES OUT. There are plenty of verses that talk about apostasy and remaining saved IF we "hold fast". This is what you must deal with. If my son won't obey the rules, he will leave of his own accord. My daughter CHOSE to leave my house under not so great circumstances, but I begged her to stay and my door is still open, IF she obeys my rules. Reba talked about her daughter who she said "was outta here". SHE LEFT, Reba didn't "cast her out". These examples show that our relationship with God is a two way relationship. Can you show me any verses that prove God will KEEP us saved EVEN IF WE CHOOSE NOT TO BE? Any verses that show a saved person living in total rebellion to God, and still remaining saved? There is a HUGE difference between obedience and EARNING salvation. If my daughter came back and obeyed my rules, she would in no way be "earning" my love or her place as my daughter or her place in my house. It would be given out of love.

Please stop with the straw man argumentation and deal with what I, and others here, really believe. We CHOOSE TO "CAST" OURSELVES OUT. God simply allows it, then tries to get us to repent and come back. The parable of the Prodigal Son comes to mind. Notice the father didn't CAST the oldest son out, but GAVE him his inheritance and let him go.

 

[reba]

But i do disagree with your use of Gen 26:5 to answer the question of whether OSAS= no is taught there. Here's why:

Thanks for your understanding

I was not using that scripture to say one way or the other about OSAS. I was just pointing out that obedience to God has always mattered.... As far as OSAS I spin myself around and around as much as this thread does.... I feel like a ping pong ball... Looking for balance

Please bare with my simple use of language... I grew up in a Pentecostalism... Folks back in the 50s thought they had to get "resaved" every week....Cause they missed up... Not talken about confessing to the Lord I mean REsaved...... I don't believe that

Some folks believe once a person has said "the sinners prayer" they are free to do what ever..... I don't believe that...That is a wide range....

What I do believe is His Blood is bigger then my sin....

AS for good ol Abraham he had to obey to have the promise of God right? Sorta the same as Moses ( Not speaking of salvation) He hit the Rock twice and could not enter the Promised Land.....
we are plainly told
Rom_15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

There are tons of lessons in the OT and most have a heavy dose of obedience....
Thanks for the conversation

 

[chessman]

[ Looking for balance

Please bare with my simple use of language... I grew up in a Pentecostalism... Folks back in the 50s thought they had to get "resaved" every week....Cause they missed up... Not talken about confessing to the Lord I mean REsaved...... I don't believe that

Some folks believe once a person has said "the sinners prayer" they are free to do what ever..... I don't believe that...That is a wide range....

What I do believe is His Blood is bigger then my sin....


Thanks for the conversation

Thank you for the insight as well. That's quite a way to bookend the spectrum. I do not agree with either of those ends either. that is, i don't find Biblical support for them. So, i'm in the middle of those too.

And yes, Christ just has to be the answer to it all.

 

[reba]

We agree!