The Meaning Of Justified

[farouk]

Back to the Scriptures: Romans 5.1 refers to a judicial reckoning before God by faith. Progressive sanctification is something else entirely.

 

[Deborah13]

Suppose this person repents and returns to his "saved" state and "shows" his faith again. How can he or anyone else tell whether THIS time he has "true faith" as opposed to the "false faith" he had last time, yet didn't know it? If God's Grace wasn't REALLY God's Grace the first time, how is ANYONE to tell the second?

You are the one making the assumption that they were "never saved" or "lost and are saved again".
I do not make either assumption. It is NOT my business to make either assumption.

Only God knows the heart of another person. We are to act in love, not tell someone they are not saved. We are to speak God's Words of mercy, love into their lives. It is His Word and presence that changes hearts and lives, not our assumptions about another person or where they stand in God's eyes. His Word says, that it is the 'goodness' of God that brings a person to repentance. Whether saved or not saved, imo. And I am living proof of that in my opinion.
If you want to know if someone is saved or not so you know how to help them (the intentions of your heart are good) ask God. If He thinks it is any of your business then He may tell you. Remember what Jesus said to Peter, "what business is it of yours?"
It is God's business how He works in anyone's life and He will do as He sees fit.

Just my opinions.

 

[dadof10]

But OSAS says I can be 'faithless' and still be saved.

Can I stop calling on the name of the Lord in faith and still have the promised benefit reserved for those who call upon his name in faith?

OSAS says, 'yes'. But scripture says you'd be giving away the very thing that secured God's grace in the first place--IOW, you will no longer be fulfilling God's condition of faith in order to be saved.

You have been saying this since the very beginning of the first thread on this topic, and I have yet to see a response from the OSAS side. Unless I missed it, this is a solid argument. Faith must be ACTIVE and perpetual (a good Catholic word ) for it to justify, otherwise, as you say, you can be faithless and still be saved, as long as you HAD faith and made a "profession of faith" at one moment in your life. Again, they can't have it both ways.

Do you think we should revisit Abraham and justification as a process? Nah, let's not ruin the moment...

 

[dadof10]

OK. Let's see where this leads. A person is saved, "shows" he is saved by his actions then apostacizes. Your contention is that his "salvation" and his "actions" were misinterpreted by him and everyone else, that he "really wasn't saved in the first place"? If I have your view wrong, please tell me.

No I'm not saying that "his "salvation" and his "actions" were misinterpreted by him and everyone else, that he "really wasn't saved in the first place".
What I am saying is that "grace" has been misinterpreted. Some people when they hear the "grace" message they think that even if they sin or do nothing in faith that it is OK with God. It is not OK with God in my opinion or experience.
I am not judging as to whether they were saved or are saved.

When God gave us His message of Grace through Paul even Paul's own questioned, "should we keep on sinning that grace should abound?" Paul says, "Heaven forbid!"

You keep wanting to give me this "never saved in the first place" Calvinist view that if someone backslides, they were never saved to begin with.
It is NOT MY VIEW.

To me, James is teaching what faith looks like to Jews who have been steeped in Mosaic Law. Not that the message is not one we should also take seriously, we should. The very first thing he address' is LOVE, and what it looks like compared to hypocrisy. Then he teaches that faith is not talk, faith walks. He gives two examples, Abraham who is giant in faith and God's own and Rahab's one act of faith and a pagan until this one act of faith.

OK, Sorry to have misrepresented your view. If you don't think that if a person apostacizes he "was never saved to begin with", how do you reconcile James' point that a person can "show' he has true faith (which you agree with) and the fact that people who DO "show" they actually HAVE SAVING FAITH, do on occasion, apostacize?

 

[dadof10]

If he can get people to believe they are saved by a one time declaration and then will always be "cool with God", he has won.

I agree with this statement but not just because of their own life. We intend to do a lot of navel gazing. When we choose to be outside of the will of God for us we affect other people's lives (which is not love) we set a bad example and don't do the works that He would have us do. We can become a stumbling block.
So is satan winning, in their witness, yes. Will he win in the end, I don't think so.

I believe God is BIGGER and He will have His way no matter what or whomever tries to stand in His way.

I'm a little confused here, Deb. My point above was the DOCTRINE OF OSAS is a horrible doctrine because, when followed to it's conclusion, it teaches that, even if one leads a life in rebellion to Jesus, he will be saved due to a one time declaration. In Jethro's example, his lady friend committed adultery and became a "party girl". I'm not judging HER, but her ACTIONS. Even when she was in the thralls of this BEHAVIOR, she still thought she was "cool with God", even though her ACTIONS are in complete rebellion to God's will. This is what I reacted to above. This attitude, that we can NEVER LOSE OUR SALVATION, is harmful.

God is bigger than Satan, but I don't think He will "have His way" even if WE DON'T want Him to. We can reject God, He allows it. You agree we have free will, right? I may me mis-remembering, but I thought you said this earlier, which is why I'm confused.

 

[Deborah13]

apostacizes

What is your definition of 'apotacize'. If you have already, I am sorry, I just don't remember it.

In certain denominations and cults, JW, etc. just leaving their group is apostasy. Surely, that is not true.

I think this is a pretty good definition,
"a willful falling away from, or rebellion against, Christian truth. Apostasy is the rejection of Christ by one who has been a Christian...."

In the OT it is most used by God when He says that Israel committed adultery in following other gods. Idols, which can be anything, in my view.

What we see as 'showing', what do we see? Only the outside of the cup. We do not see what is going on inside of the cup. We don't see what the Lord is doing or what that person's true heart is. Whether good or bad.
Yes, we can say that their behaviors do not show, or no longer show, their faith. But as to their position in God, I still do not think we can.
I do not say this from a position of inexperience. There was someone my life who professed they were a born again Christian, several others have told me (people who knew him well) that they didn't and don't believe he was. Several years later he ended up with a 10 yr. sentence for dealing cocaine. Still I will never say that or agree with them. That is God's business. God led me to pray for him and that was a part of my healing process and knowing how much God loved me and him, saved or not.

 

[chessman]

Show me where it says I can stop calling on the name of the Lord for the forgiveness of sins and stop depending on the blood of Christ, and still be saved.

Ephesians 2:5-6
English Standard Version (ESV)
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Now, if we HAVE been saved(past tense) even while dead and currently seated (present tense) with Him, can you show any Scripture that has God un-saving us based on further trespasses or booting us out of our seat? Else, you seem to just be disregarding these plain Scriptures and holding on to your opinions of what seems best to you.

John 6:37
English Standard Version (ESV)
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

For the life of me, I cannot think of how this OSAS passage is not a sweet, sweet passage. Way better than anything any human logic. Regardless, I see no logic in disregarding this Biblical truth over the off chance that somebody might think OSAS would led to an apostate life. We came from death into life. Way go back? For a little adultery? Not me. Not to mention that, even if it were true, ( that people apostatize themselves right out of their seats in heaven, they could be pulled right back in.

Romans 8:30
English Standard Version (ESV)
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

I never did get a Scripture that showed Abraham went back to being Abram!

 

[dadof10]

Suppose this person repents and returns to his "saved" state and "shows" his faith again. How can he or anyone else tell whether THIS time he has "true faith" as opposed to the "false faith" he had last time, yet didn't know it? If God's Grace wasn't REALLY God's Grace the first time, how is ANYONE to tell the second?

You are the one making the assumption that they were "never saved" or "lost and are saved again".
I do not make either assumption. It is NOT my business to make either assumption.

You are dodging the questions. You can try to turn the argument on me and my "assumptions" and try and paint me as judgmental if you want, but there are only two logical options for someone who apostacizes, either they LOST their faith, or they were never saved in the first place. The only logical third option is that no Christian has EVER apostacized, which would be ridiculous.

Only God knows the heart of another person. We are to act in love, not tell someone they are not saved.

I never said that about anyone. We are to tell people that certain BEHAVIORS are wrong, correct? We are to tell people that IF they claim to have faith, IF they claim to be Christian, they have to change their lives and repent, correct? We are to tell them that their BEHAVIOR shows if their FAITH IS A TRUE SAVING FAITH, correct? IF we SEE their behavior is sinful, we should TELL THEM TO REPENT, correct? Please stop trying to paint me as judgmental.

We are to speak God's Words of mercy, love into their lives. It is His Word and presence that changes hearts and lives, not our assumptions about another person or where they stand in God's eyes.

Again, I've never made any assumptions about the state of a person's soul. This thread is about SHOWING whether we HAVE TRUE FAITH by our actions. All I've described in my previous posts are ACTIONS that SHOW whether a person has "saving faith" or not. In my opinion, the three people I described and the lady Jethro described are not SHOWING their "true faith". These three people may go directly to heaven upon death, I don't know. Someone famous once said: "Prostitutes and tax collectors are entering the Kingdom of Heaven before you". All I know is that it's POSSIBLE to show others our "true faith". This is what James says and you agree with. For us to RECOGNIZE this "true faith", takes discernment, which is close IMHO to judgment. The difference is, we should be judging BEHAVIOR, not PEOPLE. It's hard to find a book of scripture that doesn't admonish us to refrain from certain behaviors. Paul, himself, chastised Christians and called them out BY NAME. Certainly you wouldn't say he assumed wrongly "about another person or where they stand in God's eyes".

His Word says, that it is the 'goodness' of God that brings a person to repentance. Whether saved or not saved, imo. And I am living proof of that in my opinion.

If you want to know if someone is saved or not so you know how to help them (the intentions of your heart are good) ask God. If He thinks it is any of your business then He may tell you. Remember what Jesus said to Peter, "what business is it of yours?"
It is God's business how He works in anyone's life and He will do as He sees fit.

Just my opinions.

James tells us we can show our true faith to others. He doesn't tell us to "ask God" for some private revelation on the state of someone's soul. Again, I agree that the state of a person's soul is none of my business, but what I CAN OBSERVE ABOUT A PERSON'S ACTIONS, IS my business.

 

[Deborah13]

I'm a little confused here, Deb. My point above was the DOCTRINE OF OSAS is a horrible doctrine because, when followed to it's conclusion, it teaches that, even if one leads a life in rebellion to Jesus, he will be saved due to a one time declaration.

Only if that declaration is sincere from the heart.

In Jethro's example, his lady friend committed adultery and became a "party girl". I'm not judging HER, but her ACTIONS. Even when she was in the thralls of this BEHAVIOR, she still thought she was "cool with God"

I have stated that she is not OK with God. She is wrong to think that.

You agree we have free will, right?

I do.

God is bigger than Satan, but I don't think He will "have His way" even if WE DON'T want Him to. We can reject God, He allows it.

Does He? I firmly lean towards OSAS but I have to admit that I have some bias because of my own experience with God, as a Father to me.

I look at it this way. Did we accept God all on our own. I don't buy that. The Father draws. His goodness leads us to repent the first time and every time there after. We are never on our own, without Him there is on repentance. After we become His children we are still lead to repentance. If He lead us the first, He can do it again. Is it against our free will, no.

I don't see God as a Father that when His children do not please Him, He gives up on them.
He isn't like the woman who adopted the little Russian boy and then didn't like him and tried to stick him on a plane back to Russia. He is God, He knew what we would do and He accepted us and will keep us His children.

Believing that your continued salvation is completely in your own hands after you have been born again, can be very destructive, as well. How many people have given up because when they look in the mirror they see their faults as being too big and that they can never measure up to what is necessary? I can never be good enough. I can't repent because , I wouldn't change what I did even if I could. If that is the case then this woman typing this is NOT saved. Period.

 

[dadof10]

Ephesians 2:5-6
English Standard Version (ESV)
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Now, if we HAVE been saved(past tense) even while dead and currently seated (present tense) with Him,

Whooooaaaa...there, big fella. Context, please.

"2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But[c] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."

Paul is obviously talking about a person PRE-salvation. Are you really trying to make the case that we can STOP believing and be saved anyway?

 

[Deborah13]

I never said that about anyone. We are to tell people that certain BEHAVIORS are wrong, correct? We are to tell people that IF they claim to have faith, IF they claim to be Christian, they have to change their lives and repent, correct? We are to tell them that their BEHAVIOR shows if their FAITH IS A TRUE SAVING FAITH, correct? IF we SEE their behavior is sinful, we should TELL THEM TO REPENT, correct? Please stop trying to paint me as judgmental.

I apologize, I did not mean to painted you as judgment, truly. I think you are very sincere. I think if you read my last post you will see that I am not trying to dodge answering your questions.

If I were a pastor I would not be doing my job if I did not instruct in sinful behaviors and the consequences.
As a lay person, I can state my opinions and Give Scripture for those opinions.
If I am led into a private conversation with another person I should not condone bad behaviors. I should give the Word about what God clearly says in His Word. Both against a sinful life style and about His mercy and grace for them. Instruction in righteousness is correct, condemnation is not. I would never say to some "IF YOU are a Christian, you wouldn't be doing...." Because I know when I look inside in my flesh, I don't see perfection. Therefore, the same message would return to me "IF YOU are a Christian you wouldn't ....".
If we are concerned for other people, for both their lives now and in eternity we need to give them God Word, with mercy and a humble heart.

I think that you would do the same because you are a child of God. You know you are not perfect, so therefore, you would be able to give them all the Word in love.

He doesn't tell us to "ask God" for some private revelation on the state of someone's soul.

What I meant by that, is that what we say to one person in delivering the Word may be different than someone else, at least if we want it to be effective. So we should always pray for God to show us. He will give us the Words to say, if we trust Him and ask. But He may say it's none of your business. He may not want me to be the one to speak.

It's interesting to note, that in my experience, which is limited I might add. Is that we can't always judge by the response we get just where that person is coming from. If they respond in anger, they may truly be hardhearted towards God BUT they may be under conviction and you have just brought it to the light and they don't like it, conviction does not feel good. Or they may just smile nod their heads seem to be in agreement and will immediately dismiss it when out of your presence. That is why prayer is so important, what should I say Lord?

 

[chessman]

Ephesians 2:5-6
English Standard Version (ESV)
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Now, if we HAVE been saved(past tense) even while dead and currently seated (present tense) with Him,

Whooooaaaa...there, big fella. Context, please.


Paul is obviously talking about a person PRE-salvation. Are you really trying to make the case that we can STOP believing and be saved anyway?

First i quote a verse that has SAVED in it written to a Christian church, and your logic has it talking about pre-salvation. That's funny.

Second (whoooooaaaaa, with five o's and a's) you're not MY dad. And your no cowboy driving a stalin either.

Third, as for your false dichotomy, there's at least one more possibility. A person could come back a second time into salvation. But the real issue is what the Scriptures say. And yes in context.

And the context of eph 2 is so clearly about a Christian that it say:
18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[d] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

No longer strangers?
Members of the household of God?

Whoooaaa!

 

[dadof10]

Ephesians 2:5-6
English Standard Version (ESV)
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Now, if we HAVE been saved(past tense) even while dead and currently seated (present tense) with Him,

Whooooaaaa...there, big fella. Context, please.


Paul is obviously talking about a person PRE-salvation. Are you really trying to make the case that we can STOP believing and be saved anyway?

First i quote a verse that has SAVED in it written to a Christian church, and your logic has it talking about pre-salvation. That's funny.

What's funny (peculiar, not "haha") is your selective "dividing" of the Word.

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

Do you think he is talking about Christians in their present state, or in their PAST state, before conversion?

Second (whoooooaaaaa, with five o's and a's) you're not MY dad. And your no cowboy driving a stalin either.

Oops. I forgot who I was talking to. I didn't mean to offend. I was just joking.

Third, as for your false dichotomy, there's at least one more possibility. A person could come back a second time into salvation. But the real issue is what the Scriptures say. And yes in context.

And the context of eph 2 is so clearly about a Christian that it say:
18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[d] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

No longer strangers?
Members of the household of God?

Whoooaaa!

Yes, verses 18 and following are talking about the Christian and how both Jew and Gentile are members of God's "household", verses 1-3 are not and these are the verses that lead up to verses 4-6 which you erroneously claim proves that we can STOP BELIEVING AND BE SAVED ANYWAY. Verses 1-3 are concerning the person while he was "following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience" and he was "dead in the trespasses and sins" and they were "by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind".

That was then...This is now

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."

This is pretty straightforward. Even though when they were "dead in trespasses" God made them "alive together with Christ". They were worthless sinners, as we all are, and didn't deserve the gift ("by Grace you have been saved") of faith, given while they were still in their sins.

Please answer the question from my last post. Are you seriously trying to make the case that we can STOP believing, stop having faith, and be saved anyway? Yes or no. That is, after all, what Jethro said and you responded to.

 

[dadof10]

I never said that about anyone. We are to tell people that certain BEHAVIORS are wrong, correct? We are to tell people that IF they claim to have faith, IF they claim to be Christian, they have to change their lives and repent, correct? We are to tell them that their BEHAVIOR shows if their FAITH IS A TRUE SAVING FAITH, correct? IF we SEE their behavior is sinful, we should TELL THEM TO REPENT, correct? Please stop trying to paint me as judgmental.

I apologize, I did not mean to painted you as judgment, truly. I think you are very sincere. I think if you read my last post you will see that I am not trying to dodge answering your questions.

If I were a pastor I would not be doing my job if I did not instruct in sinful behaviors and the consequences.
As a lay person, I can state my opinions and Give Scripture for those opinions.
If I am led into a private conversation with another person I should not condone bad behaviors. I should give the Word about what God clearly says in His Word. Both against a sinful life style and about His mercy and grace for them. Instruction in righteousness is correct, condemnation is not. I would never say to some "IF YOU are a Christian, you wouldn't be doing...." Because I know when I look inside in my flesh, I don't see perfection. Therefore, the same message would return to me "IF YOU are a Christian you wouldn't ....".
If we are concerned for other people, for both their lives now and in eternity we need to give them God Word, with mercy and a humble heart.

I think that you would do the same because you are a child of God. You know you are not perfect, so therefore, you would be able to give them all the Word in love.

Amen, Sister...

He doesn't tell us to "ask God" for some private revelation on the state of someone's soul.

What I meant by that, is that what we say to one person in delivering the Word may be different than someone else, at least if we want it to be effective. So we should always pray for God to show us. He will give us the Words to say, if we trust Him and ask. But He may say it's none of your business. He may not want me to be the one to speak.

It's interesting to note, that in my experience, which is limited I might add. Is that we can't always judge by the response we get just where that person is coming from. If they respond in anger, they may truly be hardhearted towards God BUT they may be under conviction and you have just brought it to the light and they don't like it, conviction does not feel good. Or they may just smile nod their heads seem to be in agreement and will immediately dismiss it when out of your presence. That is why prayer is so important, what should I say Lord?

Thanks for clearing that up, Deb.

 

[dadof10]

John 6:37
English Standard Version (ESV)
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

For the life of me, I cannot think of how this OSAS passage is not a sweet, sweet passage. Way better than anything any human logic. Regardless, I see no logic in disregarding this Biblical truth over the off chance that somebody might think OSAS would led to an apostate life. We came from death into life. Way go back? For a little adultery? Not me. Not to mention that, even if it were true, ( that people apostatize themselves right out of their seats in heaven, they could be pulled right back in.

I love my son. I will NEVER cast him out of my house. Would it NECESSARILY FOLLOW that he will be living under my roof until I die, or is there another scenario you can think of where he and I might part ways at some point in the future, before I croak?

This verse IS very sweet because it tells me that Jesus will NEVER abandon me, PROVIDED I "continue in his kindness" otherwise I "will be cut off". It doesn't prove OSAS.

 

[reba]

of their seats in heaven, they could be pulled right back in.



I love my son. I will NEVER cast him out of my house. Would it NECESSARILY FOLLOW that he will be living under my roof until I die, or is there another scenario you can think of where he and I might part ways at some point in the future, before I croak?

This struck home 10. I did not cast my daughter out I told her the rules of the house are you will be clean and sober...She was gone...She says I kicked her out.....Yet she will always be my daughter and I hope/pray she truly cleans up her act....

 

[dadof10]

of their seats in heaven, they could be pulled right back in.



I love my son. I will NEVER cast him out of my house. Would it NECESSARILY FOLLOW that he will be living under my roof until I die, or is there another scenario you can think of where he and I might part ways at some point in the future, before I croak?

This struck home 10. I did not cast my daughter out I told her the rules of the house are you will be clean and sober...She was gone...She says I kicked her out.....Yet she will always be my daughter and I hope/pray she truly cleans up her act....

I had one like that too, Reba. Broke my heart more than once. I would take her back home in a second....IF she obeyed the rules of the house. I think that's the rub here. God will NEVER cast us out, but we can cast ourselves out (as our daughters did), and He won't stop us. He WILL keep calling us to repentance with open arms, though.

 

[reba]

IF she obeyed the rules of the house.

Isn't this what God said to Abraham?

 

[dadof10]

IF she obeyed the rules of the house.

Isn't this what God said to Abraham?

 

[chessman]

IF she obeyed the rules of the house.

Isn't this what God said to Abraham?

What verse(s) of Scripture says this? That is, you remain in Christ's house IF u obey the rules?

It's not James 2:21 for sure.

James 2:21
English Standard Version (ESV)
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

Clearly, That's James talking to the church, not God talking to Abraham.

What rules?

The only person never to break any rules, was Christ.