The mechanics of The Cross. How did it work?

[mutzrein]

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-for it is written "Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree" in order the in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:13-14

For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your consience from dead works to serve the living God?...
And inamusch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.....
then He said, "Behold I have come to do Thy will." He takes away the first in order to establish the second. By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all....
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws upon their heart, and upon their mind I will write them," He then says, "And their sins and their lawless deed I will remember no more."
Hebrews 9:13-14; 27-28; 10:9-10; 14-18

There are other texts as well. We most likely should be sure to include John's testimony of Jesus, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world." The texts in Hebrews are really clear though that Jesus was the substitutionary sacrifice that bore our sins.

I still don't see how Christ's sacrifice was sustitutionary.

Atoning? yes, but not substitutionary. Where does the notion of Christ being our substitute come from?

 

[handy]

I believe the substitutionary part comes in that since He offered Himself as a sacrifice for sin, I will not face judgment. Had He not done what He did, I would face the curse of death and judgment. As it is, although I may face physical death (or maybe not, depending upon His timing) I will not face the judgment of the second death.

It could very well be that we are parsing words here, the end result is that we don't face judgment because Christ became sin on our behalf.

 

[cyberjosh]

I still don't see how Christ's sacrifice was sustitutionary.

Atoning? yes, but not substitutionary. Where does the notion of Christ being our substitute come from?

Am I missing something or does not the Bible speak of exactly that when it says, "God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" (2 Corinthians 5:21). That speaks to me of nothing other than Christ's substitution for us, that we instead may be imputed (or better yet 'become') God's righteousness through Christ.

 

[Vic C.]

Handy mentioned Hebrews 9:13-14. I'd like to add Hebrews 9:15-16:

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

No doubt there are many passages describing His substitution for our sins. That is clear. What is not so clear is how He was a substitution for the penalty we deserve for sin. He neither suffers for eternity nor did He perish. He is alive!

I believe this is where Ed is going with his question.

 

[mondar]

The concept of the substutionary atonement is especially related to certain greek prepositions.

First, the greek preposition huper...

Rom 5:8 ÃÆ’Ã…νίÃĀηÃι δὲ Äὴν εαÅÄοÃ… αγάÀην ει ημα ο ΘεὸÂ, oÄι á¼â€Ã„ι αμαÃÂÄÉλÉν ὄνÄÉν ἡμῶν ΧÃÂιÃĀὸ ÅÀὲàημÉν αÀέθανε.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


If you look up the preposition huper (highlighted in red above), you will see Thayer defines it as....
Thayer Definition:
1) in behalf of, for the sake of
2) over, beyond, more than
3) more, beyond, over
Part of Speech: preposition

Dana and Manttey, in their "A Manuel Grammar of the Greek New Testament" speaks to the issue of this preposition on pg 111-112. They say that when this preposition is used with the ablative case, the meaning of the preposition is "for the sake of," in behalf of," and "instead of." When referring to Galatians 3:13 and John 11:50 (at the bottom of page 111 and the top of pg 112) these classic grammarians say... "In both of these passages the context clearly indicates that substitution is meant (cf 2 Cor. 5:14, 15)."
The passages quoted by Dana and Mantey are...
Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Joh 11:50 nor do ye take account that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
(the preposition huper I put in red)

Another such context which uses this same preposition in a substitutionary context is John 10:45. Christ lays down his life in behalf of, or for the sake of the sheep. The preposition is translated in the ASV simply "for."
Joh 10:15 even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
The preposition certainly implies a substitutionary concept of Christs crucifixion.

Clearly the biblical concept of the meaning of Christs death is a substitutionary meaning based upon this one preposition. Yet there is more. Huper is not the only preposition used in substitutionary contexts. Sometimes it is the word "anti." Such a context is Mark 10:45.
Mar 10:45 καὶ γὰàὠΥιὸ Äοῦ ανθÃÂÎÀοÅ οÃ…κ ἦλθε διακονηθῆναι, αλλὰ διακονηÃαι, καὶ δοÃ…ναι Äὴν ÈÅÇὴν αÅÄοῦ λÃÂÄÃÂον ανÄὶ ÀολλÉν
Mar 10:45 For the Son of man also came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Again, while the english uses the simple preposition "for," the greek preposition

Again, notice how Thayer has a definition close to the substitutionary concept.
Thayer Definition:
1) over against, opposite to, before
2) for, instead of, in place of (something)
2a) instead of
2b) for
2c) for that, because
2d) wherefore, for this cause
Part of Speech: preposition

The actual biblical linguistic support for a substitutionary concept of the death of Christ is impeccable. It speaks clearly that there is no other means of salvation other then through faith in the death of Christ.

FOOTNOTE
(I suspect many will wonder if I dumped a text file in at this point. The only cutting and pasting I did was the use of Thayers definitions that I cut and pasted from E-sword... E-Sword is a free download from the internet at "http://www.e-sword.net/" ... and no this is not an advertisement. I am merely footnoting what I did cut and paste---The quote from Dana and Mantey I manually typed in and copied strait from the book).

 

[mondar]

Also, sorry, I also did cut and pasted verses from the ASV and the GNT from E-Sword. I also apologize for the bad transfer of the greek fonts when I move a cut and paste from E-Sword to this forum.

 

[handy]

Handy mentioned Hebrews 9:13-14. I'd like to add Hebrews 9:15-16:

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

No doubt there are many passages describing His substitution for our sins. That is clear. What is not so clear is how He was a substitution for the penalty we deserve for sin. He neither suffers for eternity nor did He perish. He is alive!

I believe this is where Ed is going with his question.

Yes, I understand that this is the key issue with this question, that right now, Jesus is neither suffering in hell, or dead. I still think the answer to the question involves the dual nature of the wages of sin; "death and judgement" that Hebrews 9:27 speaks of. Jesus died a physical death, as we all will, or at least all who are not living at the time of His return. So, clearly His physical death is not substitutionary for our physical death, else we wouldn't be dying.

I submit that when Romans 6:23 states, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus", the 'death' being spoken of here isn't mere physical death, but true death which is separation from God. Look at it this way, God told Adam and Eve that if they ate of the forbidden fruit, they would die. Yet when they did so, they didn't experience physical death for hundreds of years. However, the separation from God, being booted out of His presence in the Garden, happened right away.

I think the question regarding just how Jesus' death is a substitute for our own wages for sin, is borne out of a basic misunderstanding of what 'death' is. Death, insofar as the wages of sin is concerned needs to be both a physical death AND separation from God. Jesus experienced both on the cross.

As is pointed out though, neither His physical death, nor His separation from God, (Father and Spirit) were eternal. Since we need to be humans are separated from God for all eternity because of the wages of sin, why was Jesus' death/separation so temporal in nature.

Again, I think that Hebrews 9 and 10 answers this question. Also, it is important that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. His death as both God and Man released both God and Man from the Old Covnant, upon which is was determined that the wages of sin was to be both physical death and separation from God.

I know that some would argue that as Man Jesus died, but that as God, He did not. I would say that as Man, Jesus died and as the Son, He was separated from the Father and Spirit, hence "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me."

After His death on the cross, there was a profound scene in Heaven, wherein Jesus as the slain Lamb of God (one needs to understand the sin offerings of the Old Covenant here) stood before throne of Judgment. It is at this point, when Jesus is standing in Judgment, bearing our sins that everything changes. The Old Covnant passed away. Both parties to the Old Covenant, man (in the form of Jesus, the Son of Man) and God (in the form of Jesus, the Son of God) were dead and standing in judgment. The judgment was that the Law was fulfilled, and the Old Covenant was completed.

If the Old Covenant remained in place, then I would surmise that Jesus would have to be eternally dead and separated from the Father and Spirit. But, when Jesus stood, being the perfect Lamb of God, bearing our sins upon Him, the Old Covenant was finished.

So, the key to understanding why Jesus is both alive and glorified, rather than death and eternally separated from God, is the fact that His death finalized the Old Covenant and now a New Covenant is in place. Under the Old Covenant, man always faced eternal death, because the substitutionary sacrifices of the bulls and lambs weren't enough to wash away the stain of sin. God, the Father, Son and Spirit, must always be repelled by the sin of man, so when man faced judgment, man faced eternal separation from God. Therefore the wages of sin were an eternal separation from God.

Under the New Covenant though, ushered in when Jesus as both Man and God, stood bearing the sins of the world, a new judgment is now available. The new judgment is basically a choice: One can choose to be under the curse of the Law of the Old Covenant, and face judgment based upon the sinfilled deeds done against God. Or, one can choose to receive Christ as one's mediator. If Christ is one's mediator, then His death and separation that fulfilled the Old Covenant is substituted for the death and separation we would experience if we were to be judged upon our own merits. The most important thing to remember under the New Covenant though, is that the choice has to be made NOW, not when we are standing before the throne of Judgment. Once we stand there, we're on our own.

Can anyone understand what I'm saying here, or am I just getting this even more hopelessly confused?

 

[Orion]

Again, . . . .unless Jesus was no longer God, . . . he can't be separated FROM that aspect. If, by placing all sin upon Jesus, that creates some sort of spiritual paradigm where all power or aspects of God flee away, . . . then Jesus was no longer God at all, but a man. Can "The Son of God" become no longer God or a part of the Godhead which gives him the "God status"?

Also, the wages of sin ISN'T a physical death anyway. Not directly.

 

[handy]

Again, . . . .unless Jesus was no longer God, . . . he can't be separated FROM that aspect. If, by placing all sin upon Jesus, that creates some sort of spiritual paradigm where all power or aspects of God flee away, . . . then Jesus was no longer God at all, but a man. Can "The Son of God" become no longer God or a part of the Godhead which gives him the "God status"?

Also, the wages of sin ISN'T a physical death anyway. Not directly.

Nowhere can I find anything that indicates that Jesus ceased to be God upon His death. However, the cry on the cross indicates that He was, however temporarily, separated from the Father and Holy Spirit. Keep in mind that I am defining His death as what we are taught by Scripture that true death is, separation from God. I don't think He was separated from His own divinity, but for that time, He was separated from the Father and Spirit. Again, one has to understand the Trinity here. This kind of thinking cannot be supported by either Oneness theology, which teaches that Jesus is Father, Son and Spirit, nor cannot it be supported by the type of 'godhead' that Mormonism teaches, "three distinct beings that are one in purpose". In Oneness theology, you are correct Orion, Jesus couldn't possibly 'separated' from Himself. In Mormonism the three distinct beings are already separated in all but purpose anyway.

No, it takes the Trinity, wherein the three Person's are one God for all eternity. But, when Jesus, the Son, took upon Him the sins of the world, on the cross, there was a separation of the Three, prompting the cry, "My God why have You forsaken Me?"

But, even at that point, I don't think we could say that Jesus ceased to be God. For He did say that He was willingly going to lay down His life and He was going to take it back up again. I believe this alone is proof that Jesus did not cease to be God, for how could a mere man come back to life on His own?

 

[Orion]

Let's say for the moment that Jesus was separated for a short period of time from God. How is that a sacrifice since he would have known it wasn't perminant? On the other hand, we sinners have no choice but to have this "eternal separation", but then have our earthly bodies ressurected indestructable in order to ALSO feel undescribable pain and tourture? Seems unnecessarily cruel to me. :-?

Does anyone REALLY understand this man made invention, called the Trinity? Is this level of "mystery" necessary in order to "make God even more magnificent to us"? Something that we lowly humans can't understand? Where exactly is this "trinity" within scripture that ALSO can't be interpreted as "the husband and wife become one"? :-?

By the way, if I believe in more than one God making up a Godhead, that by no means indicates that I am Mormon. I personally believe they are highly deluded people following after a con artist.

 

[stovebolts]

Christianity is full of mystery Orion... Take away the mystery, and your left a critic.

I know that this thread is not about the trinity, but a knowledge of the trinity helps us to understand what happened on the cross.

A good spot to view the trinity from, would be how God reveal's himself through redemtive history.


http://johnmarkhicks.faithsite.com/content.asp?CID=7015

God substituted himself for sinners in Jesus Christ. The cross is not fundamentally a human sacrifice. It is God in the flesh sacrificing himself for humanity. God himself takes upon himself the substitutionary role. This is not a human substitute, but rather one of the triune community represents the Godhead in this act of self-humiliation and offer himself for sinners. The triune community itself experiences the hideousness of sin through the Godforsakenness of the crucified one. The triune community offered its own life, community and fellowship for the sake of reconciliation with the world they loved.

God acts against sin in Jesus Christ. He punishes sin. But he does so within his own life rather than externalizing that punishment by tormenting sinners. God himself experiences the torment of the sin rather than inflicting that torment on us. The Lord of glory cried, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34). The triune community suffered within itself rather than inflicting that suffering upon humanity. The triune community internalized the horror and punishment of sin rather than punishing humanity with eternal wrath. God saved us from the "wrath to come" by experiencing that wrath himself in his own triune life through Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 1:10). This is the love of God that sent his Son into the world as a "propitiation" for sin (1 John 4:10).

The cross is the moment of God's self-substitution. God substitutes himself in such a way that it is just for God to "justify the ungodly" and "not impute sin" to sinners. God substituted himself in that he experienced and internalized within himself the wrath that was due to us. Jesus Christ experienced the curse we deserved, paid the debt we owed, and suffered the eschatological death we earned.

 

[Orion]

The triune community suffered within itself rather than inflicting that suffering upon humanity. The triune community internalized the horror and punishment of sin rather than punishing humanity with eternal wrath. God saved us from the "wrath to come" by experiencing that wrath himself in his own triune life through Jesus Christ

This isn't true! The infliction of suffering will take place regardless of the cross. Wrath will strike humanity fiercely!! :-?

 

[Vic C.]

Wrath will strike humanity fiercely!!

All of humanity? No, the Bible doesn't teach that. :-?

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

1 Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[Orion]

Yes, . . . just those who choose to not believe the words in an ancient religious text being from any divine being, . . . or those who find the evidence to be absent, or those who, . . . . . fill in the blank. Fact is, if the Cross only covers those who CHOOSE to believe it, then it didn't remove "the sins of the world", but a few select individuals. . . .

I was watching something on TV and they were showing Buddhist kids being taught in a school, mimicing the teacher. . . . and that's why they will grow up believing in the Buddhist lifestyle. Not because they "openly rebelled against God" and choose to "shun the work of the cross", but because they were born in a country in Asia and learned a behavior. For this, . . . they will experience tremendous wrath. This is justice, how?

 

[Vic C.]

<sigh>

 

[Relic]

<sigh>

aaaah, so reminiscent....

much like the days of our old contender Soma_Sight. 8-)

.

 

[Orion]

I think I need to calm down. :

 

[stovebolts]

This isn't true! The infliction of suffering will take place regardless of the cross. Wrath will strike humanity fiercely!!

First off Orion, were talking about eternal suffering, not temporal suffering. There is a huge difference and each serves a different purpose.

What Christ suffered on the Cross was temporal and served a greater purpose. Scripture actually states that Jesus was perfected through suffering, and not only that, but his purpose was to suffer. (Hebrews 2:9-10)

As Christians, were called to a particular life of suffering for the sake of the Cross. (2 Timothy 2:12, Philippians 1:29 ) and just like Christ brought glory to the Father through suffering, our suffering also brings glory to the father.

To the unlearned in scripture, I know this sound odd, but when we, as Christians are persecuted for doing what’s right and suffer for doing right (In God’s eyes, not man’s), the result is that we actually make somebody’s life better by Doing and Being God’s word . This is another way of showing that scripture is upheld as Jesus dwells within us.

Fact is, if the Cross only covers those who CHOOSE to believe it, then it didn't remove "the sins of the world", but a few select individuals. . . .

Perhaps this is a true distortion of some doctrines that hold similarities, but it certainly is not true of all / most Christian doctrines.

Colossians 3:11-14 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do you. And above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection.

While it is true that some are elected, our purpose for being saved remains the same. Simply put, we are blessed so that we can be a blessing to those around us. After all, if the Good News is truly Good News, then it’s Good News for everyone, not only the Christian.

 

[Orion]

Good scripture passage, StoveBolts. I can agree with what you're saying.

 

[JayR]

Simply put, we are blessed so that we can be a blessing to those around us.

There is a degree of truth in this, but this isn't the primary reason why we are saved at all. We are saved primarily for the glory of God, to the praise of His grace. The gospel isn't primarily about man, not at all, it is primarily about the glory of God and the power of God in salvation.

I was watching something on TV and they were showing Buddhist kids being taught in a school, mimicing the teacher. . . . and that's why they will grow up believing in the Buddhist lifestyle. Not because they "openly rebelled against God" and choose to "shun the work of the cross", but because they were born in a country in Asia and learned a behavior. For this, . . . they will experience tremendous wrath. This is justice, how?

Yeah, and kids who grow up in America being taught by the culture to live like demons in iniquity will be punished for their evils as well. That doesn't make them right and it doesn't justify them because the people around them were doing evil.

Those Buddhists will not be held accountable only for their heinous and terrible idolatries, but they will be punished for their blasphemy, their lying, stealing, rebellion, hatred, greed, pride, foolishness, adultery, lust, ruthlessness, bigotry, covetousness, and all the rest of their rebellious downright evil acts that they commit, think about, and meditate on all day every day. "Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5) Some of you will deny this truth proclaimed directly from the mouth of God because He spoke it before the flood took place and you think it only applied to pre-flood humanity. Look now at Genesis 8:21: "The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth..." This means that man's heart is evil from birth. King David, part of true Israel, a saved man of God, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said in Psalm 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." So were you reader, and so was I. They will be punished for the fact that they "...know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them." They will be punished for the fact that they hate the true God, and chose instead to walk in their own idolatrous ways. They will be punished for the fact that they lived lives in open enimity against God and His truth. They will be punished for making themselves enemies of God through wicked works. They will be punished for hating God rather than loving and worshipping Him. God would be perfectly just in condemning every living soul who ever walked the earth to the deepest pits of hell. The fact that He chose to save a massive remnant from every tribe and nation by crushing His Son in their place under His wrath is a demonstration of a perfectly just, righteous, and holy God. You may not agree with that now, but when you stand before Him on Judgment Day there will be two witnesses against you. Your own conscience will condemn you when you stand before His majesty and holiness in contrast to your depraved wicked heart, and He will condemn you by judging you in perfect justice because He knows every thought word and deed that you have ever done. In short, that is justice, because God says it is. You don't know what justice is, the fact that you would question God's justice proves that, because His justice is the standard of true justice.