The mechanics of The Cross. How did it work?

[stovebolts]

Stove. Check out this website when you get a chance and listen to some of the sermons. They are awesome. http://heartcrymissionary.com/

Thanks for the link, we’ll see.

God, being love, truth and wisdom created Man for fellowship.

What verse is that? I don't believe that at all in light of the fact that the Godhead is always in perfect fellowship. God created man for His own glory.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

I find this pretty straight forward. God is love, and all love comes from God. When God created, he created out of love, which is to say, God created us out of himself, in His own image did he breath the spirit of life into us. (Genesis 2:7)

Job 38:36 Who has put wisdom in the inward parts? or who has given understanding to the heart?

Similar to love, all wisdom comes from God.

Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

God’s primary nature is love, and love is not centered on self, it is always projected and flows outward. Out of love, God created all that is in existence. When God created humanity, he did so out of his divine nature, which is love.

God by nature being love, is expressed in community.
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, as you well know, comprise the fullness of God’s love. This perfect community created humanity in it’s image through love for communion. (See Genesis 1 and 2)

When we live life in communion with God, this inherently brings glory to God.

Revelation 4:11 You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for you have created all things, and for your pleasure they are and were created.."

God's primary will and desire is to exalt and glorify Himself.

While I agree that we are to acknowledge that God is worthy of praise and honor, I disagree that being exalted and glorified is His primary will, but rather it (being praised and honored) is the result of His creation recognizing His greatness through fellowship.

I believe God’s primary desire is communion, for which he will reconcile all things to himself while he desires that all humanity be saved. This is not primarily for the purpose of being exalted and glorified, as like I stated earlier, being exalted and glorified are responses.
To now expound upon, being exalted are expressions and acts derived from being in perfect communion with God, just like back in the Garden before the fall (Genesis 1 and 2)

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

These are expressed in Christ Jesus.
John 14:6 Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me.

Why do we bear fruit? For the glory of the Father. "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples." (John 15:8) Does bearing the fruit of the Spirit bless others? Absolutely, but blessing fallen creatures doesn't begin to take priority or even come close to being anywhere near as important as glorifying God.

What is the purpose of being a disciple? Hint, it is the same purpose that Israel was chosen.
Deuteronomy 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
When the Church is attractive by acting and functioning as we were created to act and function, it draws others closer to Christ... (Ez 16). When the church abuses that beauty, it brings wrath for the correction of those whom He loves(Ez 16)

We don't bless others as a priority or an end. We bless others to the glory of God.

Agreed, I never said anything to the contrary and I realize that you did not infer otherwise.

If we bless others for the sake of blessing others, it becomes idolatry.

I agree, and again, I never said anything to the contrary and I realize that you did not infer otherwise.

If we bless others for the sake of glorifying God, we are doing God's will.

I don’t want to get into semantics, but I actually believe that God blesses others through us, which is part of our blessing. Hence, God blesses us to be a blessing to others. Our blessing comes from being able to have God work through us. (Ephesians 2:10) for truly, All praise, honor and glory are His.

"Whether you eat, or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." This is a command from God to glorify Him in absolutely everything we do. This should be our ultimate motive for doing anything, to glorify God.

Agreed with the addition of the context in which this verse was pulled as Paul admonishes the church in Corinth on how community takes priority over ones self and knowledge does not become a stumbling block, nor is knowledge anything without love (1 Corinthians 13:2). It is the fuller context of this scripture that brings glory to God.

Ephesians 1:3-6: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love, He predestined us to the adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved."

I’ve bolded “In Love†and “kind intention of His willâ€Â

We are saved to the end of praising the glory of His grace. Fellowship with Him in His presence is a means to that end, but it is not the end, and it is not the primary reason why He saved us or created us.

"Hence, God blesses us, to be a blessing to those around us."

We obviously look at that verse a bit different… God saves us because he loves us, and it is His will to have fellowship with us. The effect of that fellowship is praise an honor.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Christ crucified was the means to that end…

God blesses us primarily to glorify Himself.

See above

It is not found in ‘authoritative power’.

I hate it when I do that… What I mean is this. When I speak of ‘authoritative power’, I am speaking on a secular, corporate view of the abuses of that authority. In other words, we must not look at YHVH like those that looked upon Zeus, let alone Cesar. I believe if you view the rest of my statements with that lense, it will make more sense.
I ask that you forgive me for my hasty response where I did not clarify my words better and I will attempt to do a better job in the future of making myself clearer to understand.

Power in an authoritative sense is a trait of fallen man and our sinful nature. It has nothing to do with God’s nature.

That is blasphemy. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I say this for your sake, you most likely said this out of ignorance. Don't say things like that.

I understand how you misunderstood my statement and no, you didn't sound arrogant. Knowing now how you read my statement, I'd say you answered very kindly and appropriately.

That being said, can you see the perspective I was focused on?

In other words, YHVH didn’t send his son down to earth to show his ‘power’, he sent his son down to earth to suffer, and show His grace toward mankind.

There is some truth in this, but the Gospel is the power of God to salvation. The Gospel is a Gospel of power. The Gospel has the power to transform radically depraved God haters into God worshippers. The Gospel is the power of God.

While that is one perspective, I believe that the gospel is more of a witness to God’s grace. Note: I am not infering that this is your view, but only a puppet is beat into submission through power and authoritative means. The love of God in his good grace is what enables a man’s soul to be truly transformed.

 

[stovebolts]

Death is the medicine of God. The society of sin is not granted the eternity that is promised to man, but is rooted out of him. This is why all inherit death, so that evil may not participate in eternity, but rather that man might be perfected and raised by grace back into God's eternal nature.

Amen,
This is why I see Genesis 3:24 as a blessing, not a curse. I also believe that Genesis 3:15 is the proto gospel which gives a future hope and points to Christ.

 

[Bick]

Let's get into the topic of "how exactly DOES Christ's death on the cross remove sin".

If the sin of all men was placed upon Jesus, because the "wages of sin is death...", exactly how did Jesus' death accomplish this "satisfaction of God's wrath"? How was this sacrifice, and what Jesus did, taking our place?

If we die "in our sin", then we go to Hell. No way out. If we die in our sins, while still alive, we have no choice but to find ourselves in Hell...

How exactly did Jesus become our substitute?

MY RESPONSE: The pattern was laid down in the OT through the animal sacrifices carried out by Israel. They could never take away sins (Heb.10:4), they were but a figure of Jesus death, the perfect sacrifice. And God ratifies his acceptance of Christ's sacrifice by rousing him from the grave, and seating him at his right in the heavens.

No where in Scripture have I found that Jesus death was to bring about the "satisfaction of God's wrath." From my studies, that is a theologically invented concept.
It does say in Isaiah 53:10 that it pleased the Lord to bruise him, to put him to grief when he was made an offering for sin.
And further in Hebrews 2:10, NIV, "In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God,... should make the author of their salvation perfect (complete) through suffering." Parentheses mine.

I dont buy the idea that God's wrath was poured out on Jesus on the cross. Too many scriptures tell of the God's wrath yet to come on the sons of men (Rom. 2:5; 5:9; Eph. 5:6; Col. 3:6; 1 Thes. 1:10, etc).

All for now--more later.

 

[Bick]

To continue: Christ did not die "in our room and stead" or "in our place."

The problem when we read almost any English version concerning those verses having to do with Christ's sacrifice, is understanding the word "for."

These are some examples of verses where "for" might be interpreted as "instead of", but they mean, from the Greek, "in our behalf."

Rom. 5:6 "...in due time Christ died for the ungodly."
or
Gal. 3:13 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us."
or
1 Thes. 2:6 "..who gave himself a ransom for all."
or
Heb. 2:9 "...that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."
or
1 Pet. 3:18 "...Christ also hath once suffered...the just for the unjust..."

So, the problem is, the word in the Greek, where "for" is used, is "huper", and means "in behalf of." All of these verses, and many more, when read, should be done so mentally thinking, "in behalf of" or "on my behalf," depending on the context.

I have found some 27 verses of Scripture, by using my Young's Concordance, with "huper" in the Greek. To be fair, I did find two relevant verses haven "anti" in the Greek.

The point is, Christ suffered, died "in our behalf"; or "in behalf of us" if you like that better.

Bick

 

[Orion]

The only reason why Adam started to physically die is that he was removed from a source of energy that allowed it. . . .removed from it by God. Had it not been for that, Adam would have still continued to live forever.

Consequently, if Adam had been removed from that source of energy BEFORE the fall, he would have died physically, not because of any sin, but because of being deprived from that energy source

Eternal life is owed to nothing in creation. The fact that it is contingent on God and not self-sustaining means that it is finite by nature.

Finite human beings, created in the image of God, were made to share then by grace in the nature and eternity of God.

Sin corrupts man and poisons his eternity, his inheritence. Had creation been left in immortality, it would have become and eternity of sin and the image of the Creator would have forever been a ghastly and distorted reflection as though through a broken mirror.

Death is the medicine of God. The society of sin is not granted the eternity that is promised to man, but is rooted out of him. This is why all inherit death, so that evil may not participate in eternity, but rather that man might be perfected and raised by grace back into God's eternal nature.

Again, . . . sin itself wasn't the cause of physical death. It was because of humans being removed from a power source, the "tree of life".

As for "eternal sin", I wonder how that is going to work for those in Heaven who are supposed to still be themselves, yet somehow are able to exist for an eternity without ever sinning again. :-/ How exactly is that propensity going to be removed? Obviously it won't be location. And it seems like God was even unable to keep his created angels from sinning. What sort of miracle will God do to keep millions of humans from sinning? If you remove that part of them, are they . . . THEM, . . anymore? :-/

Without a choice to sin, how true will this worship be? Won't God be back in the same position of "not knowing if they are worshipping of their own free will, or because he has made them where they can't help BUT worship him"?

 

[DM]

Hi Orion.

I appreciate your tenacity on this subject, it is worthy of such.

I spent many years convinced of the orthodox theory of Christ's atonement. The orthodox theory is based on a legal paradigm of "justice". When the Bible expresses that God is "just", then in our culture we tend to read into that term the idea of Western jurisprudence. The problem with that view, I've come to believe, is that it ignores the plain meaning of the word "forgiveness".

From the pulpit, we often hear the expression that sin is a "debt" for which "payment" must be made in order for "forgiveness" to occur. In plain English, this is just another way of saying that God can't actually "forgive" sins unless He is "paid" to do so. This legal paradigm makes God's law subservient to God's love. In other words, the orthodox theory suggests that God wants to forgive our sins, but technically (legally), He cannot. So then, the theory goes, God exploits a legal loophole that is present within His justice system. He becomes a man, dies for us, and thus can justifiably forgive our sins. Again, the primary dilemma with this orthodox theory of the atonement, is that it ignores what true forgiveness is . . . the cancelling of an UNPAID debt. If the "debt" is "paid", no matter who pays for it, then by definition it has not been "forgiven".

Rather, the biblical understanding is that "God is love". (cf. 1 John 4:8). Love (agape), we are told, "keeps no record of wrongs". (Literally, "does not reckon the evil" - cf. 1 Corinthians 13:5). Which is to say, that God forgives sins "freely".

This idea does not in any way make the death of Jesus on the cross irrelevant. In fact, Jesus' death was essential, NOT in order for God to be able to forgive our sins, but in order that the promise made by God to Abraham would come to fulfillment. God said that through Abraham's "seed" all the nations of the earth would be blessed. This "blessing", in the short run, was to turn each of us, Jew and Gentile alike, away from our wicked ways (cf. Acts 3:26). In the long run, this blessing is to welcome us into His eternal kingdom to live forever.

Jesus' death and resurrection is God's proof positive, that He has indeed forgiven our sins. When Christ died, we who believe the gospel died "with him" (cf. Romans 6:8 / 2 Timothy 2:11). This "death we died" is understood by viewing our identity as being "in Christ". None of this is intended to be understood in a metaphysical, quasi-literal way, but in a metaphoric way. It uses imagery and the Old Testament law of Moses as models for our understanding. In other words, if we are reckoned to have died with Christ (Jesus who literally did die), then we are also reckoned to one day live with him (Jesus who literally rose from the dead). God is using the identity of Jesus to encourage us that He has indeed "forgiven" our sins. Again, God didn't need Jesus to die so that He could forgive us . . . rather, WE needed Jesus to die in order to believe in the good news, that God forgives.

I could expound more, but I'll leave it there for now.

Grace and peace.
David

 

[Orion]

Thank you for your input, DM. Tenacious, . . . .ME? :wink:

 

[Bick]

Jesus told the thief next to him, "TODAY you will be with me in paradise". That doesn't automatically state "zero time in Hell", but close enough.

The whole "son of God" thing still makes no sense because a son, by definition, must be the product of the parentS, thus having a beginning. Again, it is a human term given to that which we don't understand, and may not have an understanding of at this time. Same with "the Father". These are metaphorical terms that were for a primative (and patriarchical) people.

MY COMMENTS: It is unfortunate how the compilers of the KJV (and many others) put the comma before "today", for in the originals there were no punctuations.

IMO, the comma should be after "today", for the phrase "I tell you today" is a Hebraism, meaning roughly, "Listen, what I'm saying is of serious importance." See Deut. 4:26, 39, 40; 5:1; 6:6; 7:11; 8:1, 11, 19; 9:1,3, etc.

The thief's request was, "Remember me, Lord, when thou comest in thy kingdom," and Jesus answered him, "verily I say to thee today, with me thou shalt be in [the] paradise," Interlinear Greek-English NT by George Berry. And When Jesus comes in his kingdom as Messiah, Israel and Jerusalem will be gloriously restored and will become like the paradise (garden) of Eden.
See, Isa.4:2; 30:23,24; 35:1,2,5,6; 41:18-20; 51:3; Jer.31:5,12; Ezek. 34:25,27; 36:29,30,33,35.

Look at Isa. 51:3 "For the Lord will comfort Zion; he will comfort all her waste places, and will make her wilderness like Eden, her desert like the garden (paradise--same meaning) of the Lord; joy and gladness will be found in her, thanksgiving and the voice of the song."

When Jesus died, he was in the tomb three days and three nights, just like Jonah was in the great fish. Jesus was not left in the grave (hades); his body did not see corruption; but was he dead? Yes, he was dead until he was roused the third day, as he predicted.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

. . . sin itself wasn't the cause of physical death. It was because of humans being removed from a power source, the "tree of life"....

Power Source?

 

[Orion]

Well, yes. . . . . . .if there wasn't any "power" in the "tree of life", then there's no reason for it to be there, right? :-?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Well, yes. . . . . . .if there wasn't any "power" in the "tree of life", then there's no reason for it to be there, right? :-?

What do you think of this:

378 - The sign of man's familiarity with God is that God places him in the garden. There he lives "to till it and keep it." Work is not yet a burden, but rather the collaboration of man and woman with God in perfecting the visible creation.

379 - This entire harmony of original justice, foreseen for man in God's plan, will be lost by the sin of our first parents.

source:
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1 ... p6.htm#373

 

[Vic C.]

I like this:

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

and

Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


Alpha and Omega... first book and last book.

Source King James Bible. 8-)

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Well, I like the Bible too.

 

[Vic C.]

:D

While I also think "power source" was not the greatest choice of words, Orion did make an interesting statement. I was only pointing out there is scripture that lends credence to his statement. 8-) We may never understand the importance of the Tree or what "it" really is until we actually get to experience it. ;-)

 

[handy]

I agree, the tree of life is one of those awesome mysteries still left to be discovered. It's interesting that even though Adam and Eve had died spiritually after eating the fruit, the 'died' in this case being the separation from God, there was still the possiblity of their physical lives being extended forever. I'm not so sure that Adam and Eve needed to eat of the fruit in order to remain alive physically, even before the fall. It seems as though the sin itself was the cause of all death, both physical and spiritual. However, there is the fact that the Tree is there in all it's glory and a river of water of life, in eternity. This thread is called the "Mechanics" of the Cross. I think Mechanics is a very good word to describe how God does some of the things He does.

Orion, earlier you asked:

As for "eternal sin", I wonder how that is going to work for those in Heaven who are supposed to still be themselves, yet somehow are able to exist for an eternity without ever sinning again. :-/ How exactly is that propensity going to be removed? Obviously it won't be location. And it seems like God was even unable to keep his created angels from sinning. What sort of miracle will God do to keep millions of humans from sinning? If you remove that part of them, are they . . . THEM, . . anymore? :-/

Without a choice to sin, how true will this worship be? Won't God be back in the same position of "not knowing if they are worshipping of their own free will, or because he has made them where they can't help BUT worship him"?

Again, I'm going to disagree with the 'unable', but agree that God didn't prevent the angels from sinning. Since the angels that didn't join in the rebellion still haven't joined in, they seem to be able to continiously choose to not sin. As for we humans, I'm not exactly sure what it means, the Revelations does day that death and hades will be cast into the Lake of Fire along with Satan, the demons and the unregenerate. Since everyone else will have either never sinned, or sinned and had the penalty paid, perhaps temptation will finally cease. I'm not sure that anyone can truly answer this question though, because it is dealing with things that are yet to be, and we have very limited understanding of this future.

But, I do think that 'they' are 'THEM', mainly because when Moses and Elijah came to stand with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah were totally recognizable as being "them".