The mechanics of The Cross. How did it work?

[Rick W]

Buddhism? India right?

Been with GFA for about 7 years now. Gospel For Asia. They teach Christ to the native people, train them to witness, to spread the Word, start Christian churches, shoulder a ministry of their own and are taught to teach the same to others. They've reached people not only in the bigger cities but in the countryside and small villages as well. It's not a small organization. Being a native evangelist has it's advantage. And that's the basis of GFA in India.
I don't know how long they've been operating there but to date there are 16,500 native missionaries incountry and that number is growing even under harsh persecution.
GFA isn't the only evangelist organization operating in India.

Christian Broadcasting Network
Trinity Broadcasting Network
The Church Of The Rock International
Trinity Television
Life Outreach International
AD 2000 Organization India Reach
Galilean International Films & Television Services

Would you believe all these are getting staunch opposition from the muslims over there? It's rather difficult to hide the Christian presence under those conditions.

Orion,
I just don't believe the argument, that Buddists haven't heard of Christ because of a taught behavior, holds much water. There's just too much going on there. But then, those TV shows don't seem to mention everything now do they? India is not as backward as you may think or led to believe.

 

[Orion]

I believe that India is Hindu. . . . . China and the like are Buddhist.

Christianity may be preached there, but I would bet it is an isolated occurance. Tell me, . . . do you REALLY think that all those "unsaved" people would just "reject the moving of the Holy Spirit based soley on their hatred for God"? :-? The FACT is, they were raised in their religious culture and found it to be satisfying. Regardless of whether or not their religious system is right or not, to say that they are "rebelling against God" is probably far from the truth.

I remember hearing about a culture that was polytheistic. They accepted Christ into their lives, . . . . but as yet another of their gods.

Here's another logical truth. People in the world are supposedly looking for something real, even religiously. If the Holy Spirit is working in their lives, why is it that Christianity is far from world wide, even in countries that have been highly prostelitized? Please don't recite a "pessimistic nature of man" answer because I don't believe it to be true.

The MAIN question is, . . . .why ISN'T the work of the Holy Spirit far greater and with more impact than other religions? If the Cross of Christ was the means of salvation, and the Holy Spirit is the one who brings this light into the heart of man, then in these past 2,000 years, Christianity SHOULD have been the majority religion of the world! AND, a Christianity of SAME doctrine. . . . . not one of fractured groups who believe differently than others. Maybe that's why Christianity isn't as widespread. Too many splinter groups that fight against the others. Yet, all of them CERTAIN that they have the Holy Spirit on their side of doctrine and interpretation. What is a person to really believe?

 

[Veritas]

Orion, there are more Christians in Africa than North America. There are also more Christians in Asia than North America

http://www.zpub.com/un/pope/relig.html

 

[Orion]

That chart SEEMS to indicate that, yes, . . . .but I thought that most on here don't see the Roman Catholic church as being "the true Christian faith"?

 

[Veritas]

I also don't really know what you mean by widespread but Christianity actually is the largest religion of the world at 2.1 billion. It's not even a reason "I" personally believe Christ but it is interesting. Islam is second largest at 1.5 billion... next comes Agnostics/Secular/Nonreligious/Athiests at 1.1 billion... then Hindus at 900 million

Too many splinter groups that fight against the others. Yet, all of them CERTAIN that they have the Holy Spirit on their side of doctrine and interpretation. What is a person to really believe?

Believe Christ. I have disagreements with many of the denominations but I still acknowledge them as my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Just saw your post... I think there are Christians who are Roman Catholic.

The only reason I see "size" as possibly important is to ensure the message gets to everyone. I believe this to be true. Isn't this at least partially evidenced by the amount of Christians out there?

 

[Rick W]

I believe that India is Hindu. . . . . China and the like are Buddhist.

Christianity may be preached there, but I would bet it is an isolated occurance.

You would definitely lose that bet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_China

Christianity in China has developed since at least the 7th century AD. The introduction of Nestorianism, a Christian denomination, around 635 is considered by some to be the first entry of the Christian religion into China. However, recent discoveries seem to put the first diffusion of Christianity in China during the 1st century AD.[1] Today, the Christian population in China comprises Protestants, Catholics, and a small number of Orthodox Christians.

The government census enumerates 4 million Catholics and 10 million Protestants[2]. However, independent estimates have ranged from 40 million[3], to 100 million[4], to 130 million Christians in January 2007 (out of a total population of at least 1.3 billion people).[5][6]

In October 2007 two surveys were conducted to estimate the number of Christians in China. One poll was held by Protestant missionary Werner Burklin, the other one by Liu Zhongyu from East China Normal University in Shanghai. The surveys were conducted independently and during different periods, but they reached the same results.[7][8] According to these studies, there are roughly 54 million Christians in China, of which 39 million are Protestants and 14 million are Catholics.

 

[Orion]

Well, . . . . .you learn something new everyday.

 

[stovebolts]

Simply put, we are blessed so that we can be a blessing to those around us.

There is a degree of truth in this, but this isn't the primary reason why we are saved at all. We are saved primarily for the glory of God, to the praise of His grace. The gospel isn't primarily about man, not at all, it is primarily about the glory of God and the power of God in salvation.

JayR,
I really struggle with your response. I’m not sure if I do not understand you fully and we’re saying the same thing in different ways, so let me just respond the best that I can.

To ask the question, “Why are we savedâ€Â, can be answered in the same question, “Why did God create humanity?†God, being love, truth and wisdom created Man for fellowship. God didn’t create humanity because God was lonely, or that he needed somebody to boss around, but rather, God, being love, expresses his love through all of creation, which includes humanity.

Now, you mention that we are saved for the glory of God, and I don’t disagree. However, what does this glory look like? I believe that when we live the way God originally created us to live, well… this brings glory to God. Hence, God blesses us, to be a blessing to those around us. It’s about community as much as it’s about a personal relationship for God is community by nature, not simply individualistic.

Just to clarify, and I’m sure you’ll agree, God’s power is found in grace, wisdom and purpose. It is not found in ‘authoritative power’. Power in an authoritative sense is a trait of fallen man and our sinful nature. It has nothing to do with God’s nature.

In relation to the Gospel, I believe that it’s not entirely about humanity, but rather the Gospel speaks of reconciliation of ALL things with an emphasis on God’s only creation which was formed in His image (humanity). In other words, YHVH didn’t send his son down to earth to show his ‘power’, he sent his son down to earth to suffer, and show His grace toward mankind.

In the creation accounts, God said, “It is very good†when he was finished. The creation account shows us how God intended us to live, not only in harmony with each other, but in harmony with the rest of his creation, the cross (gospel) brings us back to God’s original intent. I believe that it is when we live in the manner which God originally created us (having fellowship with Him), that God is glorified.

 

[JayR]

Stove. Check out this website when you get a chance and listen to some of the sermons. They are awesome. http://heartcrymissionary.com/

God, being love, truth and wisdom created Man for fellowship.

What verse is that? I don't believe that at all in light of the fact that the Godhead is always in perfect fellowship. God created man for His own glory.

"Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created." God's primary will and desire is to exalt and glorify Himself. Why do we bear fruit? For the glory of the Father. "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples." (John 15:8) Does bearing the fruit of the Spirit bless others? Absolutely, but blessing fallen creatures doesn't begin to take priority or even come close to being anywhere near as important as glorifying God. We don't bless others as a priority or an end. We bless others to the glory of God. If we bless others for the sake of blessing others, it becomes idolatry. If we bless others for the sake of glorifying God, we are doing God's will. "Whether you eat, or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." This is a command from God to glorify Him in absolutely everything we do. This should be our ultimate motive for doing anything, to glorify God.

Ephesians 1:3-6: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love, He predestined us to the adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved."

We are saved to the end of praising the glory of His grace. Fellowship with Him in His presence is a means to that end, but it is not the end, and it is not the primary reason why He saved us or created us.

"Hence, God blesses us, to be a blessing to those around us."

God blesses us primarily to glorify Himself.

It is not found in ‘authoritative power’.

What verse is that? God is absolutely sovereign over everything. His power is absolutely found in authoritative power. God has absolute authority over everything, and there is emmense, eternal power in that.

Power in an authoritative sense is a trait of fallen man and our sinful nature. It has nothing to do with God’s nature.

That is blasphemy. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I say this for your sake, you most likely said this out of ignorance. Don't say things like that.

In other words, YHVH didn’t send his son down to earth to show his ‘power’, he sent his son down to earth to suffer, and show His grace toward mankind.

There is some truth in this, but the Gospel is the power of God to salvation. The Gospel is a Gospel of power. The Gospel has the power to transform radically depraved God haters into God worshippers. The Gospel is the power of God.

the cross (gospel) brings us back to God’s original intent.

The cross was God's original intent. The cross is the central message of the entire Bible. God intended to die for us. God didn't create everything good and then mess up and let it fall. He intended for it to fall, and He intended to work things the way He has because it isn't about men, it's all about God, and God is most glorified in the way things are working out.

 

[handy]

For the most part Jay, for about 99% of what you said in this last post, I'd agree with.

The exception: the part about God creating everything for good, but intended it to fall.

What texts show the basis of your opinion?

 

[JayR]

He is omniscient. He knows everything. Past, present and future. He orders everything to happen exactly according to His providence. He is sovereign.

So look to any Scripture verse that talks about God's providence or sovereignty.

 

[Orion]

So God created this elaborate system of animal sacrifice (which ultimately was insufficient) that was pointing towards Christ on the cross as the sin sacrifice. . . . . .for a few (in terms of the mass of humanity who have ever lived) to be saved. If God is sovreign and orders everything to happen exactly according to his providence, . . . .then why the animal sacrifices, or even the cross. Even if you WERE right, and only a few select are ever "chosen", . . . these "chosen" still commit sins after conversion, so why not just justify them rather than creating such a production of various animal sacrifices and even a cross? I know you'll state "without the shedding of blood. . . . ." but of what value is it to shed the blood of a goat or bull? Obviously that act proved to be worthless. It did not remove sin. The "fragrance of the burnt offering" was supposed to please the nostrils of God. That's obviously figurative, of course. But the people were still sinners. Same for today. Even the most devout Christian is still a sinner and sins at various times in their life and will as they continue to live.

"The wages of sin is death". This is a spiritual thing, not a physical one. So I don't understand what purpose blood shead makes in doing anything in the spiritual? It is completely physical, is short lived . . . VERY short lived, . . . and quickly the blood is gone, the body decomposes and turns to dust. In the realm of eternity, this life and death of the body is a fraction of "the blink of an eye". As I see it, human blood has no worth to is as it is the spirit/soul that actually has REAL life.

 

[JayR]

these "chosen" still commit sins after conversion, so why not just justify them rather than creating such a production of various animal sacrifices and even a cross?

"He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous, they both are an abomination to the LORD." That's why. Without a sacrifice of atonement, God would be an abomination if He justified the wicked.

So I don't understand what purpose blood shead makes in doing anything in the spiritual?

The body of Jesus Christ was torn to shreds on the cross, but God the Father crushed His soul.

"As the result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities... Because He poured out His soul to death..."

The cross was not only physical suffering. Christ felt His Father's wrath in His very soul.

 

[Orion]

"He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous, they both are an abomination to the LORD." That's why. Without a sacrifice of atonement, God would be an abomination if He justified the wicked.

Isn't this exactly what's happening, through Christ, though? The wicked (yes, including you, JayR) is being justified. You receive justification outside anything YOU are able to do, because of your sin!

The body of Jesus Christ was torn to shreds on the cross, but God the Father crushed His soul.

"As the result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities... Because He poured out His soul to death..."

The cross was not only physical suffering. Christ felt His Father's wrath in His very soul.

I do not make light the way Jesus died. He could have easily been "run through with a sword" and would have STILL died for men.

Regardless, physical death is not the result of sin, it is a spiritual matter outside of the physical! It is an INDIRECT result at best. So where does the need for a physical death enter into the equation for a spiritual soul?? :-?

 

[JayR]

Isn't this exactly what's happening, through Christ, though?

We are justified by Christ's work, but His work in justifying the ungodly does not make Him an abomination at all. It makes Him merciful and gracious and glorious. His work is perfect. He is just in justifying the ungodly, because His justice has been appeased and satisfied through the work of the cross and the ressurection of Christ.

Regardless, physical death is not the result of sin, it is a spiritual matter outside of the physical!

That's not true. Physical and spiritual death are the result of sin. Adam was immortal before he sinned. If he hadn't sinned, he wouldn't have died. Adam sinned, and then the curse of death came upon all men. Hell is called the second death for a reason. The first death which is bodily was part of the fall and the consequence of sin. The second death is as well, but you can't ignore the fact that physical death is the result of sin because the final judgment of it is eternal.

 

[Orion]

We are justified by Christ's work, but His work in justifying the ungodly does not make Him an abomination at all. It makes Him merciful and gracious and glorious. His work is perfect. He is just in justifying the ungodly, because His justice has been appeased and satisfied through the work of the cross and the ressurection of Christ.

So when the scripture says, "He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous, they both are an abomination to the LORD." . . . doesn't apply to Jesus. :-?

That's not true. Physical and spiritual death are the result of sin. Adam was immortal before he sinned. If he hadn't sinned, he wouldn't have died. Adam sinned, and then the curse of death came upon all men. Hell is called the second death for a reason. The first death which is bodily was part of the fall and the consequence of sin. The second death is as well, but you can't ignore the fact that physical death is the result of sin because the final judgment of it is eternal.

Sorry, but you're absolutely wrong here. His physical death was not directly caused by his sin!

 

[JayR]

So when the scripture says, "He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous, they both are an abomination to the LORD." . . . doesn't apply to Jesus. :-?

It doesn't apply to Jesus because through His work we are no longer wicked in His sight. He paid for our wickedness. He became our sin. We are perfectly righteous in His sight.

Sorry, but you're absolutely wrong here. His physical death was not directly caused by his sin!

I didn't say it was. It was caused by His people's though.

 

[Orion]

The only reason why Adam started to physically die is that he was removed from a source of energy that allowed it. . . .removed from it by God. Had it not been for that, Adam would have still continued to live forever.

Consequently, if Adam had been removed from that source of energy BEFORE the fall, he would have died physically, not because of any sin, but because of being deprived from that energy source.

 

[Devekut]

The only reason why Adam started to physically die is that he was removed from a source of energy that allowed it. . . .removed from it by God. Had it not been for that, Adam would have still continued to live forever.

Consequently, if Adam had been removed from that source of energy BEFORE the fall, he would have died physically, not because of any sin, but because of being deprived from that energy source

Eternal life is owed to nothing in creation. The fact that it is contingent on God and not self-sustaining means that it is finite by nature.

Finite human beings, created in the image of God, were made to share then by grace in the nature and eternity of God.

Sin corrupts man and poisons his eternity, his inheritence. Had creation been left in immortality, it would have become and eternity of sin and the image of the Creator would have forever been a ghastly and distorted reflection as though through a broken mirror.

Death is the medicine of God. The society of sin is not granted the eternity that is promised to man, but is rooted out of him. This is why all inherit death, so that evil may not participate in eternity, but rather that man might be perfected and raised by grace back into God's eternal nature.

 

[Rick W]

The only reason why Adam started to physically die is that he was removed from a source of energy that allowed it. . . .removed from it by God. Had it not been for that, Adam would have still continued to live forever.

Consequently, if Adam had been removed from that source of energy BEFORE the fall, he would have died physically, not because of any sin, but because of being deprived from that energy source.

Sounds like the 1967 episode from Star Trek... "Who Mourns for Adonais?"

[attachment=0:05dbb]Apollo.jpg[/attachment:05dbb]

As long as he had that structure behind him he had all his powers.

Eternal life is owed to nothing in creation. The fact that it is contingent on God and not self-sustaining means that it is finite by nature.

well said
:smt023