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The Mormon Belief of Deification

"He created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them; And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship" - (D&C 20:18–19).

"In order to gain salvation, we worship the Father and him only." -Bruce R. McConkie

"We have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" (Hebrews 12:9).

Why does an angel say to John, "I am Alpha and Omega," and when John falls at his feet to worship him, say: "See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God" (Revelations 1:8, 19:10)? Through Divine Investiture of Authority this angel is acting as an ambassador or Christ, Jesus. We too can be ambassador's of Christ, Jesus by proclaiming the truth of His gospel.

Paul tells us that God "hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation." This doctrine is, he continues, "that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them," on conditions of faith and repentance. And he "hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation," making us, thus, "ambassadors for Christ," and enabling us to say to all men: "We pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God" (2 Corinthians 5:18–20).

We are ambassadors of Christ, Jesus and in taking his name upon us we should strive to emulate Him in every way even if the transformation process means we become His heirs. It's strange that many Christians claim they are Christ like while vehemently accusing others of being wicked or UN-Christlike. This makes it unequivocally evident that they somehow grasp the simple concept of being like Christ (Godlike) yet they reject a notion that they can become a God. It appears there is some sort of mental disconnect here among self proclaimed "Christians" or a lack of comprehension, or is that a to much of a reach or a "giant leap" for you? We do have Agency or Moral Agency, privileged to make choices and decisions, which means that God is not a task master and he will no force His will upon us.

O' the heresy of the Christian world that points a finger saying they're right or someones wrong as if by authority, although they protest supposed authority and claim a need for reformation. How can you reform something that is broken and needs to be completely restored to its original state? You can't reform something with authority if you have none to begin.
 
We are ambassadors of Christ, Jesus and in taking his name upon us we should strive to emulate Him in every way
Have you been given the road map as how to do this? Are you going to die for all men on the cross as Jesus did?

I believe that to for me to be able to emulate Jesus I sure better understand who he is, and be willing to be baptized by authority even as Christ was baptized. Obviously, there is no other name given whereby men can be saved but Jesus Christ himself. Jesus is the light of the world and my redeemer, even the great Jehovah! Rhetorical questions like yours are insulting and offensive by the way. just saying!

God bless!
 
We are ambassadors of Christ, Jesus and in taking his name upon us we should strive to emulate Him in every way
Have you been given the road map as how to do this? Are you going to die for all men on the cross as Jesus did?

I believe that to for me to be able to emulate Jesus I sure better understand who he is, and be willing to be baptized by authority even as Christ was baptized. Obviously, there is no other name given whereby men can be saved but Jesus Christ himself. Jesus is the light of the world and my redeemer, even the great Jehovah! Rhetorical questions like yours are insulting and offensive by the way. just saying!

God bless!
Sorry you feel insulted, and I would have to ask why because there is scripture as how to do that? :chin
 
Through Divine Investiture of Authority this angel is acting as an ambassador or Christ, Jesus. We too can be ambassador's of Christ, Jesus by proclaiming the truth of His gospel.
Huh? or Christ? How do you come up with this? Thanks.

To be honest if you know nothing about Divine Investiture of Authority it's useless for me to explain a concept that I've spent many years studying, because suspect you will not be receptive to the doctrinal concept. How can I think any differently when you pose ridiculous rhetorical questions such as "are you going to die for all men on the cross as Jesus did?". To put it into simplistic terms, however, it means to delegate authority. Perhaps you can somehow consider why Jesus called apostles to the ministry. Perhaps, while contemplating the idea of delegation, and its repercussions in Jesus Christs ministry you could apply that train of thought to Divine Investiture, and see a bigger picture and broaden your perspective and perception. God is referred to as Alpha and Omega, it is true! However, some sources claim the Bible has spawned over 33000+ total "Christian" denominations due to different interpretations therefrom, and due to ministers who just want to make a living while in the ministry. If you care to share your interpretations I'm all ears I'd entertain your perspective, and if you care to share some wisdom I'd appreciate the kind regards.

Blessing unto you! :shocked!
 
We are ambassadors of Christ, Jesus and in taking his name upon us we should strive to emulate Him in every way
Have you been given the road map as how to do this? Are you going to die for all men on the cross as Jesus did?

I believe that to for me to be able to emulate Jesus I sure better understand who he is, and be willing to be baptized by authority even as Christ was baptized. Obviously, there is no other name given whereby men can be saved but Jesus Christ himself. Jesus is the light of the world and my redeemer, even the great Jehovah! Rhetorical questions like yours are insulting and offensive by the way. just saying!

God bless!
Sorry you feel insulted, and I would have to ask why because there is scripture as how to do that? :chin

I am not of the belief that any man can die for the sins of other men other than Jesus Christ himself. Jesus is my savior and not any other man, and he was born of Mary, died on a cross, and rose the third day conquering death. I find it repugnant for any man to suggest that anyone other that Jesus can die and atone for another mans sins. Is this your belief? Please clarify!
 
Through Divine Investiture of Authority this angel is acting as an ambassador or Christ, Jesus. We too can be ambassador's of Christ, Jesus by proclaiming the truth of His gospel.
Huh? or Christ? How do you come up with this? Thanks.

To be honest if you know nothing about Divine Investiture of Authority it's useless for me to explain a concept that I've spent many years studying, because suspect you will not be receptive to the doctrinal concept. How can I think any differently when you pose ridiculous rhetorical questions such as "are you going to die for all men on the cross as Jesus did?". To put it into simplistic terms, however, it means to delegate authority. Perhaps you can somehow consider why Jesus called apostles to the ministry. Perhaps, while contemplating the idea of delegation, and its repercussions in Jesus Christs ministry you could apply that train of thought to Divine Investiture, and see a bigger picture and broaden your perspective and perception. God is referred to as Alpha and Omega, it is true! However, some sources claim the Bible has spawned over 33000+ total "Christian" denominations due to different interpretations therefrom, and due to ministers who just want to make a living while in the ministry. If you care to share your interpretations I'm all ears I'd entertain your perspective, and if you care to share some wisdom I'd appreciate the kind regards.

Blessing unto you! :shocked!
Not understanding your sidestepping the question with a personal attack, or possibly I'm misunderstanding that you are saying the angel of Revelation 19:10 is Christ, or that we can be Christ. Maybe you can explain this to me. :shrug
 
From what I've read from leaders across the Generations of the LDS Church, the emphasis had changed a bit. Or rather downplayed. As the Church has become more evangelistic and more mainstream, there are certain things the Church has abandoned, i.e. Blacks now have the Priesthood, Plural Marriage is Prohibited...
First of all, you might consider your focus in seeking out the quotes you are familiar with in the earlier writings of church leaders. It seems to me that you would not be as likely to be looking for quotes by early church leaders that are more in harmony to current teachings or even to traditional Christianity. Is it not true that you have been more drawn to the more controversial statements, at least in recent memory and therefore influencing your current perspective. If you had the time to do a thorough search through all 26 volumes, you would find that the controversial statements and teachings make up a very small percentage of the whole.

I would agree that the tone of the teachings of church leaders has definitely changed, at least compared to the sermons you are most familiar with. Also, the care in what they said and how they said it. In the 1800s the church was young and eager to explore all the possibilities within this new frontier of revealed religion. There was much speculation mingled with officially accepted doctrines. There was not much concern with being misunderstood or being taken out of context. They reveled in being different from traditional Christianity, perhaps to a fault. But they were a young church and learning.

You also have to understand the complete context. They knew that the vast majority of the persecution they unfairly suffered, including murder, rape and forced mass eviction from homes in the middle of winter was instigated by Christian ministers who felt threatened by their teachings and even their success. There was indeed a sense of “in your face†attitude that came across in some Mormon sermons. Often in their delivery of unique doctrines they accentuated the differences, rather than the commonality between the Mormon perspective and that of traditional Christians. This approach was not so bad in their day, but would not work so well in our society today.

It is important to understand the difference between doctrine and practice, or the application of doctrine. The official core doctrines of the church have not changed at all. There are no contradictions if you understand and see the whole picture. From Adam till now, plural marriage has always been a practice that has only been allowed or commanded by God at certain times and not in others. Practicing it for a limited time is well within Biblical precedent. Holding the Priesthood has been limited to certain groups throughout the time of the Bible. From the time of Brigham Young it was always understood that the Blacks would eventually receive the priesthood, but the Lord had not revealed when. Because it had not been revealed, many made speculations and assumptions that turned out to be inaccurate. But these are in the category of practices, not doctrine.

Christians believe that we are not under the Mosaic Law, therefore I don't go around hoping not break the 9th commandment.
This is quite a surprising statement to me. So you believe that the ten commandments are invalid because they were a part of the Mosaic Law? I have never heard that stated so bluntly by a Christian before. I thought Jesus was pretty clear when He explained that the two most important laws were love of God and man. And that the 10 commandments were just examples of what that looks like. In other words, the new law included and explained the reason behind the 10 commandments, not replaced them.

Mormon Doctrine has a centralized theme that is overemphasized.. that is restored gospel of Jesus Christ and the continued prophets to lead the church in teaching and edifying to make them more like Christ, I will grant that is the primary emphasis. But if you will zoom out and look at the whole scope of what has been taught over the years, it will appear as if there has been an eternal cycle of gods creating universes and worlds to populate to create more gods to continue this creative process. However, I do understand that the leaders of the church, and the church curriculum do not often focus on this, it is though I believe a large part of the overarching story that Mormonism paints.
This is well stated and I don’t disagree with it. But we must realize that when we back out to see the large picture, as you speak of, and see the fringe parts of the overarching story you start to see that the puzzle is missing more and more pieces the further you get from the center. There is much we do not know when it comes to what happens and how it happens eons after this life and eons before the creation of this earth and the details become less and less relevant to us here and now.

1. This was taught to me in Sunday School, so it is your opinion that this is not Mormon Doctrine, as I can site sources across the history of the church that agree with this quote.
I, of course, cannot argue with what you remember about what you learned in Sunday School. I do know what is the official position of the church, however, and what I have learned in my several decades in the church. But if you actually thought that anything taught in Sunday School should be classified as official church doctrine, it is no wonder you left the church. Just because some of the early leaders believed that God in some incomprehensible way continues to learn, does not mean it has ever been official doctrine.

Whenever we learn anything new, it is human nature to make assumptions and put it into the context of our current understanding. Without realizing it we can make false assumptions. It is hard to argue with Joseph Smith when he said that if you were to gaze 5 minutes into heaven, you would know more than all that has ever been written on the subject. But there is another reality that goes along with that. A 5 minute gaze into heaven would give you a lot of information that you would not fully comprehend and you would make assumptions based on your limited understanding that would likely be at best incomplete and at worst just flat out wrong. Unconsciously you would fill in gaps with earthly perspective, which would cause some of your explanations of this experience to be inaccurate. It would reveal more questions than answers. But it would still be light years ahead in accuracy of any understanding you had before that experience. If you had a second heavenly vision you would likely notice things that you didn’t the first time and realize you were wrong about some of your first conclusions. Or God could pull you aside, so to speak, and correct a critical misunderstanding. This is what I mean by learning line upon line, precept upon precept. The conclusions you came to from the second vision, could not have been reached without the knowledge of the preceding one. As the church has matured, it has become more aware of this and taken precautions not to jump to conclusions.

2. The Journal of Discourses was produced by the Mormon Church and approved by the First Presidency of that day.
The Journal of Discourses was NOT produced by the church. The first volume was privately published George D. Watt, the transcriber of many of the sermons of several church leaders to be used as a reference by the members overseas who did not have any other access to most of the sermons of the leaders in Utah at that time. It was also definitely NOT approved as a source of official doctrine. This first volume was recommended by the First Presidency in the beginning of the book as good reading and suggested that it be purchased to assist Mr. Watt financially.

As far back as I remember ever hearing about the JofD, it has always been a treasure and rich resource for reference and research, but never considered as a source for official doctrine. I personally love the JofD and value it highly. It provides many inspiring ideas and historical perspective. It is true that general authorities and official church manuals reference quotes from the JofD, but they also quote a lot from Shakespeare, C.S. Lewis and many other non-Mormon authors.

It was not produced via a stenographer so it would be one thing to grant mistakes here and there but whole sections of coherent sentences about a very specific theological idea is a rather strange mistake. It would be odd if Brigham Young was talking about loving black people... but then the stenographer ended up recording that those who have intercourse with black people should die. So your point is really just an attempt at a defenses that in my opinion fails. The Journal of Discourses is a good and accurate look at the theology of the early prophets and teachers of the LDS church, it's also been a great bain for the church since people actually began to read these sermons in our time.
I answered much of this in a previous paragraph. I agree that some of the things said in that culture and those circumstances sound very strange even to members of the church today. But even if the exact words were transcribed accurately, we are still missing much of the context. When excerpts from talks and even entire talks are considered by themselves we miss the context of everything else Brigham or others taught. We miss the context of certain specific situations that may have existed at that precise time in history. We miss the different meaning of words back then compared to now. We may forget the culture of the time and what those words meant then. For example, the word “die†can have many different meanings and nuances even in our day. When we add the possible nuances in meaning that come from the time difference you can see the problem. These sermons were usually not proofed and approved by the speakers themselves and certainly not screened by the other leaders.

Using statements from the 1800s to show contradictions between then and now is also forgetting the youth of the church and that God gives us wisdom line upon line and precept upon precept. As I said earlier, those leaders tended to mix their own speculation and assumptions in with their sermons. That is another reason they are not considered official doctrine. As the church has matured and as technology has advanced, the leaders have learned to be more careful how they say things in ways that are less likely to be misunderstood. The JofD may have become a bane to individuals like yourself, who read isolated quotes and sermons and jump to conclusions without seeking to understand the full context and patiently allowing those in the church who are knowledgeable to give a reasonable explanation. But it certainly has not been a bane to the church as a whole.

Imagine all the things the early apostles may have spoken in sermons that were inaccurate assumptions and speculations that we do not have record of. We only have what has been filtered through several centuries of acceptance and rejection. Think of all the censoring and book burning practiced by the early Catholic Church. They didn’t even want the common person to be able to read the scriptures. You can imagine that anything embarrassing or contradictory recorded of what the early apostles said would not be preserved. But even in the scriptures themselves we find personal opinions that have been preserved. For example, do you really believe that it is inappropriate for women to speak in the church today? Do you believe that all women should have long hair? You may say that Paul was only offering his opinion here or that it was only applicable in his day, but if so, why is it preserved in scripture? Isn’t scripture supposed to be only the word of God for all ages?

In teaching the gospel to non-Christians I have had a much harder time explaining some unusual things in the Bible than some of the crazy things said by Brigham or Parley. There are some pretty difficult things to explain about what occurred in the Old Testament, like mass genoside of all men women and children of entire groups of people or talk of nephilim and giants. Being myopically critical of isolated statements in the JofD is really a double standard when you consider these things.

This is getting quite long, so I'll continue my response to this post in my next post.
 
Through Divine Investiture of Authority this angel is acting as an ambassador or Christ, Jesus. We too can be ambassador's of Christ, Jesus by proclaiming the truth of His gospel.
Huh? or Christ? How do you come up with this? Thanks.

To be honest if you know nothing about Divine Investiture of Authority it's useless for me to explain a concept that I've spent many years studying, because suspect you will not be receptive to the doctrinal concept. How can I think any differently when you pose ridiculous rhetorical questions such as "are you going to die for all men on the cross as Jesus did?". To put it into simplistic terms, however, it means to delegate authority. Perhaps you can somehow consider why Jesus called apostles to the ministry. Perhaps, while contemplating the idea of delegation, and its repercussions in Jesus Christs ministry you could apply that train of thought to Divine Investiture, and see a bigger picture and broaden your perspective and perception. God is referred to as Alpha and Omega, it is true! However, some sources claim the Bible has spawned over 33000+ total "Christian" denominations due to different interpretations therefrom, and due to ministers who just want to make a living while in the ministry. If you care to share your interpretations I'm all ears I'd entertain your perspective, and if you care to share some wisdom I'd appreciate the kind regards.

Blessing unto you! :shocked!
Not understanding your sidestepping the question with a personal attack, or possibly I'm misunderstanding that you are saying the angel of Revelation 19:10 is Christ, or that we can be Christ. Maybe you can explain this to me. :shrug

My belief is that the Angel is not Christ but speaking first person as Christ and is not Christ. Sure, we cannot be Christ, but we can work for Christ and do his ministry and deliver his message of peace and love just as this Angel is delivering a message. Divine Investiture of Authority is a deep theological doctrine and I am over simplifying it, but the point is that Jesus does delegates. I hope this explanation satisfies your appetite.

Now my question for you again is, do you think a man other than Jesus can die and atone for another mans sins? Please clarify your position! I am not intending to attack you, but as I said that the question "Are you going to die for all men on the cross as Jesus did?" warrants clarification.

I'm going to bed so we'll chat soon. Good night and God bless.
 
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My belief is that the Angel is not Christ but speaking first person as Christ and is not. We cannon be Christ
Then I ask you who he is?

Now my question for you again is, do you think a man other than Jesus can die and atone for another mans sins?
No we can't, nor is it needful, thus we cannot emulate Christ in everything He did, but there is a formula given in your bible.

I am not intending to attack you.
Oh I think you did, but let's go past that and see if there's any semblance of truth to your doctrines.
 
Second of all, even if this were church doctrine, it does not mean that God is limited in the context of anything that pertains to us. For example, does the fact that Michael Jordan didn’t know how to speak Japanese limit his ability as a basketball player? Of course not. Therefore, if God were increasing in knowledge in some area that is beyond our comprehension, that does not necessarily mean that he is limited in his ability to be our perfect God.
This would still be light years in difference from the Christian view of God.
I’ll assume that by “Christian viewâ€, you mean Biblical view. Actually it does not contradict anything in the Bible, because the Bible really doesn’t address this issue in this context.

We do not believe God increasing his dominions and creations is his progression.. please see my response to this, we would never employ the language of progression in regards to God as Mormons have done.
Why would you object to calling God’s increasing creations progression? The Bible takes no position on the matter. What is wrong with calling it progression? Is it just because the Mormons use the term?

Since when is the teaching of the prophets not official church doctrine? Can we nit pick at what Brigham Young said that is and is not official doctrine? Was he speaking on behalf of God? He certainly thought he was.. so why not believe what he said? If indeed he was speaking on behalf of God presumptuously then according to the Scriptures such a person should be put to death to presume to speak personally for God and it not be so.
I’ve pretty much answered this one above. Keep in mind that we believe that God believes in continuous revelation because circumstances and situations change and because He nurtures us as a people line upon line, precept upon precept. He allows prophets to make human errors in judgement as long as it does not lead the people astray. It is important to God that we learn from our mistakes and others’. That is one of the reasons the church has not attempted to cover up or destroy what is recorded in the JofD. The teachings of Brigham and others of his day were for those people, not for us, unless it is included in the canon of scripture. That is how it works with ongoing revelation.

1. In an attempt to defend Mormonism, you attack the consistency of the Bible. This I've found is a very common Mormon apologetic tactic, and it shifts the defensive position into an offensive one.
Woe! How is stating facts in the Bible attacking it. These are things that happened in the Bible that we can learn from. How can you call this an attack? Please explain yourself.

2. Barnabas was not an author of Scripture, Paul was. We do not believe the men are fallible, though when they speak on behalf of God we do believe they are.
But Barnabas was still identified as an apostle. Doesn’t that count?

3. You're not understanding the story of Jonah. You see God used stories in the Minor Prophets to paint a picture metaphorically of what is happening in Israel. Hosea and Jonah are prime examples of this. Jonah is not just the story of a wayward prophet who refuses to do the will of God who then gets eaten by a big fish to then begrudgingly fulfill God's will. It is a story that illustrates Israel's failure to fulfill God's purposes through them.. that is to be a blessing to all other nations. God would of course bring about this purpose, but it would be through their own hardness as revealed in the NT.
This sounds like you believe that the story of Jonah is a fable that did not actually happen. If so, this is a perfect example of how the Mormons believe in the Bible more literally than an Evangelical. This story is presented as an actual event in history by the Bible. Of course there are types and shadows and lessons that can be applied to other things, but that does not mean that this event did not happen. One of the lessons that can be learned from this event is that God allows fallible men who misunderstand God’s purposes to still speak for Him as prophets.

You are mistaken in saying Mormons do not believe that Jesus is eternally God. We believe He IS eternally God. We do not believe, however, that He has always been eternally God.
This is a contradiction...
It is only a contradiction to you because you want it to be. Can’t you see that part of being God is living in the past, present and future, and Christ IS at the time He became God, therefore, eternally God? By understanding it this way it allows the possibility of reaching that state from a lower one. Where is the contradiction? Even if we said that Christ has always been God, it would be in the context of the history of His creations as God, which includes this world, so it still could be considered as not being contradictory.

If Jesus is created by God and then exalted by God to the state of Godhood separate from his being, then he cannot be God.
Why not?

Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. Isaiah 44:8(KJV)
There is no God but Yahweh!
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Isaiah 43:10(KJV)
No gods before or after Yahweh were formed or created.. he alone is God of all.
Don’t you realize that Joseph Smith and every other Mormon leader was and is well aware of these scriptures? They are as fundamental to our belief as they are to yours. We have an explanation that makes this understandable in a way that does not contradict our doctrine.

After the apostles died, later in the second century and into the third and fourth, there was confusion and controversy over the issue of the oneness and separateness of the Father and the Son. The final result was the Nicene Creed. You will find no controversy over this very critical issue in the first century. I wonder why?

To read the instances in the NT that discuss the relationship between the Father and the Son without the influence of man-made creeds, the most obvious conclusion is that they are separate individuals. Jesus made the distinction over and over again throughout the gospels. He even prayed that the apostles would become one as He and the Father are one. He prayed that they would become one with Them.

As leaders became more separated in time from the inspired apostles, and Greek philosophy increased in its influence on the thinking of those most influential, what was clear to first century Christians became confusing. Hence the controversy. The Nicene Creed became their way, finally, to resolve the seemingly contradictory concept of only one God and the separateness of Jesus and the Father in the NT. But the creed is nothing but several contradictions that Christians are told to accept on faith and that God is incomprehensible anyway, so don’t worry about it.

It makes sense to me that in restoring the fulness of the Gospel, God would correct faulty understanding that created the controversy in the first place, and bring back the clarity that existed in the church before such things became controversial. Because of this, Mormons have an explanation that is comprehendible and has no contradictions, unlike the Nicene Creed.

Again, this thread is about Christ’s personality attributes, not His physical features. Nothing Joseph Smith ever taught contradicts anything in the Bible about how Jesus looked. It is really quite irrelevant.
I am not disputing the physical features of Jesus, I was using an analogy to demonstrate a point. If Mormons say, Jesus is like this and his nature is like this. And Christians.. and the Bible say differently, then you have another Jesus.
But the point you miss is that the Mormons’ description of Jesus in no way contradicts anything in the Bible. It only contradicts traditions developed by Christians several centuries after the books in the Bible were written -- traditions that did not exist among first century Christians.

You said that Mormons believe in the accuracy of the Bible as much IF NOT MORE than Evangelicals.. Yet that is not reflected in your comments at all. Stating that some on the fringe of evangelicalism doubt the Bible's accuracy is not an accurate representation of evangelical opinion.
If I quoted 3 Mormons who were kind of on the outskirts of Mormon orthodoxy you'd probably object as well. For one.. "Dr." Walter Martin is not a good apologist and falsely claimed to have a doctorate, these are of course the kind of people who would indeed attack the Bible's accuracy. Jack Hayford has not been as outspoken though I know his position is more on the reliability of Scripture rather than going as far as infallibility and inerrancy.
I can’t think of any person in all of Evangelical Christianity who is considered to be more mainstream than Dr. Walter Martin. He founded the Christian Research Institute, which is as mainstream as you can get. He was on mainstream Christian radio as “The Bible Answer Manâ€. The fact that you are aware that he was a fraud is only an embarrassment to mainstream Evangelical Christians. They are just not aware of it. I’m sure you will find that most Evangelicals consider Pastor Cole of Moody Bible Institute and Jack Hayford to be very mainstream. What makes this example more profound is that they all three were in perfect agreement on this same idea. My argument remains very valid.

Thanks for the discussion.
 
Like Jake, you are avoiding answering the question. Why? You are mistaken in saying Mormons do not believe that Jesus is eternally God. We believe He IS eternally God. We do not believe, however, that He has always been eternally God. Once He became God, he lived in the past, present and future and will for the rest of eternity. All things are before him. The Bible teaches nothing contradictory to this. The Bible says nowhere that Christ was not created. This is a false sectarian assumption that is not in the Bible. In fact, the Bible testifies that Jesus Christ was indeed created by God and Mary. Is not being born, being created? It is true that He existed in a different state before that, but so did all of mankind. Mormons believe Christ became God eons before this world. So Christ has always existed according to Mormon belief, but not always as God. But that was long before “the beginning†of the Book of Genesis. It has nothing to do with what is being discussed in the Bible. We must remember context when interpreting the scriptures.

proveallthings---Still trying to wrap my mind around this huge contradiction. What you are saying is that once Jesus became God, His Past [before He became God] was wiped out and He then gained Eternal Godhood. The word Eternal, among other things, means "true at all times"

While the Bible says nowhere that Jesus was NOT created [as you say], it hardly says He Was. How can any of us truly Worship a Christ Who Is thought to be created like each of us? It really demeans Him to think He is an merely an exalted man and this is one huge area that helped me to leave the Mormon church. "Another Christ" to say the least.
 
My belief is that the Angel is not Christ but speaking first person as Christ and is not. We cannon be Christ
Then I ask you who he is?

Who is who? who is he? are you asking who the angel is, or who Jesus is? I think I'm clear about what Divine Investiture is so read up on it if you really care to understand this concept. I thought perhaps you'd care to share your most impressive perspective since this seems to be of such great import. ;)

Now my question for you again is, do you think a man other than Jesus can die and atone for another mans sins?
No we can't, nor is it needful, thus we cannot emulate Christ in everything He did, but there is a formula given in your bible.

Perhaps we cannot not emulate Jesus in "everything" but I say we can emulate Jesus Christ being loving to our neighbor, keeping his commandments, doing good deeds, and generally trying to be Christlike etc. Of course, I don't think any man can atone for another mans sins as you've already seen (unless you can't read well) and Jesus Christ is the only savior of the world. Definition of emulate: a : to strive to equal or excel. b : imitate; especially : to imitate by means of an emulator. She grew up emulating her sports heroes. While each of us are our own distinct individuals and I can never be you or Jesus I sure can strive to emulate Him as my hero. While we cannot be equal we sure can strive to live as he lived the best we can.

I am not intending to attack you.
Oh I think you did, but let's go past that and see if there's any semblance of truth to your doctrines.

Yes lets! Oh, I think you have intentionally offended as well, so the feelings mutual, but somehow we'll survive eh! Round and round we go. I think I've been clear with my beliefs and I don't declare it as my doctrine. It is my interpretation and the interpretation of millions. However as I pointed out there are many many many thousands of different interpretations in Christendom, thus the O' so many denominations. With so many competing views of truth, for you it seems to be whatever you'll consider it, even if it's a conflicting contradiction to doctrine or another individuals interpretation. Whatever opposing view or semblance of truth exist in your mind, one thing is certain, I'll not consider you an authority on the matter.

Like I said, if you care to share your wisdom I'm all ears. Jesus is my hero!
 
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Like Jake, you are avoiding answering the question. Why? You are mistaken in saying Mormons do not believe that Jesus is eternally God. We believe He IS eternally God. We do not believe, however, that He has always been eternally God. Once He became God, he lived in the past, present and future and will for the rest of eternity. All things are before him. The Bible teaches nothing contradictory to this. The Bible says nowhere that Christ was not created. This is a false sectarian assumption that is not in the Bible. In fact, the Bible testifies that Jesus Christ was indeed created by God and Mary. Is not being born, being created? It is true that He existed in a different state before that, but so did all of mankind. Mormons believe Christ became God eons before this world. So Christ has always existed according to Mormon belief, but not always as God. But that was long before “the beginning” of the Book of Genesis. It has nothing to do with what is being discussed in the Bible. We must remember context when interpreting the scriptures.

proveallthings---Still trying to wrap my mind around this huge contradiction. What you are saying is that once Jesus became God, His Past [before He became God] was wiped out and He then gained Eternal Godhood. The word Eternal, among other things, means "true at all times"

While the Bible says nowhere that Jesus was NOT created [as you say], it hardly says He Was. How can any of us truly Worship a Christ Who Is thought to be created like each of us? It really demeans Him to think He is an merely an exalted man and this is one huge area that helped me to leave the Mormon church. "Another Christ" to say the least.

It appears that it's certainly convenient to be selective with once way of defining words to confuse themselves, or another person, and even attempt to manipulate a conversation in there favor. It also appears fairly easy in a two dimensional forum for someone to deliberately misconstrue text in a way that is pleasing unto themselves rather than how it was originally intended. In other words, for some the "Give me convenience or give me Death" mentality is more comforting than laborious efforts to truly be receptive, to broaden comprehension, perspective, and perceptions.

Definition of Eternal: a : having infinite duration. b : of or relating to eternity. c : seemingly endless d : characterized by abiding fellowship with God, i.e. what must I do to inherit eternal life? Of course the Greek word αἰώνιος meaning everlasting, or long-lasting (Gtr. aionios) translated means 'eternal' or 'everlasting.

I could be wrong but it appears that this discourse is hinging upon the topic of Fore-ordination: To determine or appoint beforehand; predestine or upon Pre-ordination: To appoint, decree, or ordain in advance; foreordain.

It's sad for anyone to join a religion, or leave a religion without understanding the foundational doctrines, but at the same time it's almost laughable (and abhorant) when they claim they've got it all figured out but don't.

Jesus is my hero!
 
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proveallthings---Still trying to wrap my mind around this huge contradiction. .
Jamesone5, Thanks for at least trying to understand. I respect you for that.

What you are saying is that once Jesus became God, His Past [before He became God] was wiped out and He then gained Eternal Godhood..
I’m sorry if I led you to believe that this is what I meant. It is not. Let me try and make it more clear. Mormons believe that Jesus is Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament. He was God before our earth was created, for as God, He created it. We believe that during and since that time He has been omnipotent, omniscient and perfect. We also believe that he has a perfect, unconditional love for each of us. Because He is God, He comprehends all and lives from eternity to eternity. Past present and future are all present before him. There is nothing in what I have said here that demands He had to have always been in this state of perfect awareness. Nothing has to be wiped out for this to work. To make all these things true, it is not necessary for Him to have always been God. What is important for us to know is that He has always been God for us on earth.

The word Eternal, among other things, means "true at all times"
I’m curious where in the Bible you get this definition of Eternal. I am not familiar with it.

While the Bible says nowhere that Jesus was NOT created [as you say], it hardly says He Was.
Good observation. This is exactly the point. This is an issue the Bible does not comment on. Therefore, one cannot use the Bible to argue the point one way or the other.

How can any of us truly Worship a Christ Who Is thought to be created like each of us? It really demeans Him to think He is an merely an exalted man and this is one huge area that helped me to leave the Mormon church. "Another Christ" to say the least.
Again, how can you say this contradicts the Bible when you just admitted the Bible doesn’t even take a position on this subject?
If Jesus is all the things I listed above for us mortals, what else matters? How does the fact that he became what He is now long before the creation of this earth, affect His ability to be your God? I don’t understand how this demeans Him. If He is fully capable of being our perfect God, why does it matter how He came to be such, or if He did?

Jamesone5, your comments and questions here are excellent. Thanks you. I look forward to your next response.
 
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Some participants have been involved in the 1-on-1 Debates where this rule is given a certain degree of flexibility. When we are posting on the board outside of the Debate Forum, we're back to enforcing the ToS as it reads. Please do not attempt to persuade against the core tenets of our faith.

I suspect this reminder will be sufficient, and I thank you for respecting our rules going forward. :nod
 
It's sad for anyone to join a religion, or leave a religion without understanding the foundational doctrines, but at the same time it's almost laughable (and abhorant) when they claim they've got it all figured out but don't. Jesus is my hero!

Let's UN-assume things here, Sport. I grew up in the Mormon Religion, spent the first 40 years of my life in it and as to understanding the foundational Doctrines of the Church--I pretty much had it all hammered into my head from the time I was a child.Had both priesthoods, along with the so-called understanding of the Power the Melchizedek Priesthood and of course, the patriarchal blessings Even baptized my own father when he joined the church. As the LDS church places so much stock in genealogy, on my mother's side I go back to a man who was Brigham's leader of the Mormon Militia in the 1850's and there is even a monument to him in Western Wyoming. Also, in my family tree was a blood relation who was married to Hiram Smith and numerous past bishops and Stake Presidents and even a member of the 70's.

As to you also assuming that I am claiming to have it all figured out----there is a number of places in the Bible that say one must test all things. In fact, 1 Thess.5:21 says just that. While I am far from figuring it all out, I have learned to reject what is NOT of God and leaving the Mormon Church was through a lot a prayers, and a huge amount of Biblical discernment on my part against Mormon publications. To be sure, I hardly took that decision lightly

As to Jesus being merely a hero to you--you really do "miss the mark" as to Who He really is.
 
Merely? Silly, and limiting how you select your choice of words, but no he is not "merely" a hero to me, Sport. Your long standing in the church is supposed to prove what? I still stand by my statements and point out the my statement of "claim they've got it all figured out" is the cynical and sarcastic side of me coming through. I clearly don't think you have got much figured out, and I stand by my statements with this clarification.

God is great!
 
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