The move away from Legalism..

[Servant_2000]

Here is an excellent article that every Evangelical should read. Knowledge is power. It gives a clear definition of Adventist Sects and no matter how deceptive the Seventh-Day Adventist Church is with its PR, if one reads this article, which has a good biblical backing, they won't be deceived.


http://www.reachouttrust.org/articles/r ... galism.htm

 

[gingercat]

I am not a SDA member but from what I have researched, they are the most effective and fruitful denomination. We have to watch out when we persecute faithful Christians! I understand that many churchgoers and pastors call faithful and obedient ones "legalists". How warped. It is just absurd! We hardly have faithful Christians and we gang attak them when we have the chance. It seems that they want to keep people from being faithful and obedient to the Lord. What kind of Christians are we?

 

[Vic C.]

... What kind of Christians are we?

I think asking ourselves "what kind if Christian am I?" is just as important a question.

 

[gingercat]

... What kind of Christians are we?

I think asking ourselves "what kind if Christian am I?" is just as important a question.

Vic What kind of Christian are you?

 

[SputnikBoy]

Here is an excellent article that every Evangelical should read. Knowledge is power. It gives a clear definition of Adventist Sects and no matter how deceptive the Seventh-Day Adventist Church is with its PR, if one reads this article, which has a good biblical backing, they won't be deceived.


http://www.reachouttrust.org/articles/r ... galism.htm

Oh no, not yet another example of the "let's blow raspberries at God and give His commands the finger" brigade. I haven't gone to the link provided above as I really don't need to. Yawn ... ing:

 

[PDoug]

Here is an excellent article that every Evangelical should read. Knowledge is power. It gives a clear definition of Adventist Sects and no matter how deceptive the Seventh-Day Adventist Church is with its PR, if one reads this article, which has a good biblical backing, they won't be deceived.


http://www.reachouttrust.org/articles/r ... galism.htm

Oh no, not yet another example of the "let's blow raspberries at God and give His commands the finger" brigade. I haven't gone to the link provided above as I really don't need to. Yawn ... ing:

Do you believe that God is incapable of making someone act rigtheously in a natural manner, or that He just doesn't do so (Romans 8:9, Philippians 2:13)? Why do you insist on ignoring Galatians 5:4? Are we to disobey God's commandment that we are not pursue the law, in order to achieve obedience to Him? You are no different from the Pharisees. Rather than seeking out a type of faith that causes righteousness to develop in you, you try to offer your own righteousness to God, and encourage others to do so. Don't you know your righteousness is worthless - that they are as filthy rags to God? Have faith correctly and bear fruit, and do not spread this errant doctrine of justification by works around. In as much as God condemned this doctrine at the time of Paul, God condemns this doctrine now.

 

[Servant_2000]

Here is an excellent article that every Evangelical should read. Knowledge is power. It gives a clear definition of Adventist Sects and no matter how deceptive the Seventh-Day Adventist Church is with its PR, if one reads this article, which has a good biblical backing, they won't be deceived.


http://www.reachouttrust.org/articles/r ... galism.htm

Oh no, not yet another example of the "let's blow raspberries at God and give His commands the finger" brigade. I haven't gone to the link provided above as I really don't need to. Yawn ... ing:

Is that your perception of it. No one said anything of a sort in your post..I did say Evangelicals...I guess you exclude yourself just with your own admission.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

http://www.reachouttrust.org/articles/r ... galism.htm[/url]

Oh no, not yet another example of the "let's blow raspberries at God and give His commands the finger" brigade. I haven't gone to the link provided above as I really don't need to. Yawn ... ing:

Is that your perception of it. No one said anything of a sort in your post..I did say Evangelicals...I guess you exclude yourself just with your own admission.[/quote:9828e]

If evangelical means that we can say there is no requirement or need to follow Christ and do as He told us to, then you can count me out of the label too. Jesus was clear that if you love Him, you will keep His commands. I know the modern church has made every effort to explain that away and call it legalism but it does not take away from the fact that our actions are clearly attached to our faith in Christ and thus our destiny after this life.

 

[Gary]

If evangelical means that we can say there is no requirement or need to follow Christ and do as He told us to, then you can count me out of the label too. Jesus was clear that if you love Him, you will keep His commands. I know the modern church has made every effort to explain that away and call it legalism but it does not take away from the fact that our actions are clearly attached to our faith in Christ and thus our destiny after this life.

What do you classify "modern" church as? Which churches are not "modern"? i.e. Which churches (or denominations) in your opinion do NOT do this?

Why would an Evangelical church teach that you do NOT have to follow and do what Jesus taught? That does not make sense at all. Have you actually been in a church which teaches this?

:-?

 

[Lyric's Dad]

If evangelical means that we can say there is no requirement or need to follow Christ and do as He told us to, then you can count me out of the label too. Jesus was clear that if you love Him, you will keep His commands. I know the modern church has made every effort to explain that away and call it legalism but it does not take away from the fact that our actions are clearly attached to our faith in Christ and thus our destiny after this life.

What do you classify "modern" church as? Which churches are not "modern"? i.e. Which churches (or denominations) in your opinion do NOT do this?

Why would an Evangelical church teach that you do NOT have to follow and do what Jesus taught? That does not make sense at all. Have you actually been in a church which teaches this?

:-?

Well it is very touch and go. In one breath the church will teach that we need to take up our cross and follow Christ but in the other breath they will say that only faith is needed. The two just don't go hand in hand. While only the grace of Christ saves, our obedience is mandated. We are to try our very best, but in the end we know that it is only Christ that can redeem us.

 

[Gary]

[quote="Lyric's Dad":1e49d]If evangelical means that we can say there is no requirement or need to follow Christ and do as He told us to, then you can count me out of the label too. Jesus was clear that if you love Him, you will keep His commands. I know the modern church has made every effort to explain that away and call it legalism but it does not take away from the fact that our actions are clearly attached to our faith in Christ and thus our destiny after this life.

What do you classify "modern" church as? Which churches are not "modern"? i.e. Which churches (or denominations) in your opinion do NOT do this?

Why would an Evangelical church teach that you do NOT have to follow and do what Jesus taught? That does not make sense at all. Have you actually been in a church which teaches this?

:-?

Well it is very touch and go. In one breath the church will teach that we need to take up our cross and follow Christ but in the other breath they will say that only faith is needed. The two just don't go hand in hand. While only the grace of Christ saves, our obedience is mandated. We are to try our very best, but in the end we know that it is only Christ that can redeem us.[/quote:1e49d]

Again, you do not define who "the church" is. So you have set up a straw man argument. If what you say is true, why not point to a church site or sermon where what you propose is being taught? It should be fairly easy.

All the previous unanswered questions to the previous post still apply.

:-?

 

[Servant_2000]

If evangelical means that we can say there is no requirement or need to follow Christ and do as He told us to, then you can count me out of the label too. Jesus was clear that if you love Him, you will keep His commands. I know the modern church has made every effort to explain that away and call it legalism but it does not take away from the fact that our actions are clearly attached to our faith in Christ and thus our destiny after this life.

Context, Jesus was talking to Jews who were zealous for the law, particulalry the 10 C.s and especially the 4th commandment. If He is really saying "...keep MY commandments" He is contrasting and confronting there status quo, trying to open their eyes to the kingdom of God. This is quite different from the SDA idea of emphasizing the word "commandments" and equating it with the 10 C.s. He'd be preaching to the old proverbial chior with a statement supporting the 10 C.s. These were a people who already held these in high regard. No, He was challenging them to look at HIS commands as opposed the the 10 (or 613 for that matter).

And Christ's NT Commandments omit Sabbath-keeping, although Paul permits it, but not as a command, in Romans 14.

all of Christ's commandments are summed up in the one word: Love. "Thou shalt love!" When we understand that this law -- the ultimate law -- is the hardest one of all to keep, then we have nowhere else to go but to the foot of the cross. But until we do realize that, we have lots
and lots of other places to go.

 

[Servant_2000]

I am not a SDA member but from what I have researched, they are the most effective and fruitful denomination. We have to watch out when we persecute faithful Christians! I understand that many churchgoers and pastors call faithful and obedient ones "legalists". How warped. It is just absurd! We hardly have faithful Christians and we gang attak them when we have the chance. It seems that they want to keep people from being faithful and obedient to the Lord. What kind of Christians are we?

They masquerade really well as evangelical Christians. It's really only upon close observation that we begin to see that the doctrines are not just heterodoxical, they're heretical.

 

[Servant_2000]

Seventh-day Adventism plays the same game in salvation as every other false movement of Christendom. They profess to teach salvation by grace through faith, but they redefine this in a way that is contrary to N.T. doctrine.

Though they often deny this, the Adventist denomination teaches that salvation is by grace plus law, faith plus works. Grace, according to Adventist theology, is the power and forgiveness God gives to enable a sinner to keep the law and to thereby build a holy character fit for Heaven. He who fails to build the right character by God's grace will never see Heaven. Faith and works are the two oars by which the believer is propelled to glory.

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES: How does the true gospel of the grace of Christ differ from the SDA gospel?

1. Salvation is by grace ALONE through faith ALONE, without the works of the law in any sense whatsoever. Contrary to Adventist doctrine, grace and faith, law and works are not mutually sympathetic systems and are not to be mixed.

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But TO HIM THAT WORKETH NOT, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:4-5.

"AND IF BY GRACE, THEN IS IT NO MORE OF WORKS: OTHERWISE GRACE IS NO MORE GRACE. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work" Romans 11:6.

"But now the righteousness of God WITHOUT THE LAW is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God; BEING JUSTIFIED FREELY by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood" Romans 3:21-25.

"Christ hath REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith" Galatians 3:13-14.

"And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESPASSES UNTO THEM; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. FOR HE HATH MADE HIM TO BE SIN FOR US WHO KNEW NO SIN; THAT WE MIGHT BE MADE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN HIM" 2 Corinthians 5:18-21.

The Good News of Christ is not salvation through grace which produces the works of the law. It is eternal salvation by God's grace alone through faith alone WITHOUT THE LAW. All who will be saved must come on these glorious terms, trusting in the shed blood alone for full salvation.

Those who, after initial faith in Christ, attempt to return to the Mosaic law to perfect their salvation are committing the same error as the Galatians of the first century.

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham" Galatians 3:1-7.

Those who persist in placing themselves under the Mosaic law in spite of clear N.T. teaching are outside of true salvation. Seventh-day Adventist leaders are of this number; they are Galatian legalizers.

"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain" Galatians 4:9-11.

"My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you" Galatians 4:19-20.

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again in the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith" Galatians 5:1-5.

2. Salvation is secure upon conversion. The true gospel of the grace of Jesus Christ offers perfect security, and ONLY the true gospel can offer security.

 

[cj]

..... We are to try our very best, but in the end we know that it is only Christ that can redeem us.

This is funny.

I wonder if Lyrics Dad knows that what he spoke above contains a contradiction.

Lyrics Dad,....... "our" best.... IS..... knowing that only Christ saves us.

The problem is, so many times during the day we each forget this and try to save ourselves.


Try and understand this little talked about fact,......

God's commandments are all about God saving men.

Christ is the reality of God's commandments,..... and the effecting of God's commandments,..... and the resulting issue of God's commandments.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

I am not a SDA member but from what I have researched, they are the most effective and fruitful denomination.

The Pharisees that Jesus called sons of the Devil were pretty effective at getting Jews to attend the seven feasts.

To the dark-minded observer it would have seemed that they were doing an effective and fruitful job also; and they were,... for themselves.

We have to watch out when we persecute faithful Christians!

Oh, is that what the scriptures say? "Watch out when you persecute faithful Christians?"

I think not.

I understand that many churchgoers and pastors call faithful and obedient ones "legalists". How warped. It is just absurd!

According to what view? Your's, mine, someone else's?

We hardly have faithful Christians and we gang attak them when we have the chance.

"Faithful Christians",.... as opposed to what, "Unfaithful Christians" maybe?

It seems that they want to keep people from being faithful and obedient to the Lord. What kind of Christians are we?

Which is it..... "they" or "we" Gingercat? You can't have it both ways?

Either you're a "they" or you're a "we".



Gingercat, men will be men, and fallen men will be fallen men.

Thus there is only one way to stop "persecuting" anyone,.... stop abiding in the fallen man.

The question though, is how does one do this.

And I'll let you in on a little.... tid bit,..... it isn't by holding onto a false head.


In love,
cj

 

[gingercat]

I am not a SDA member but from what I have researched, they are the most effective and fruitful denomination. We have to watch out when we persecute faithful Christians! I understand that many churchgoers and pastors call faithful and obedient ones "legalists". How warped. It is just absurd! We hardly have faithful Christians and we gang attak them when we have the chance. It seems that they want to keep people from being faithful and obedient to the Lord. What kind of Christians are we?

They masquerade really well as evangelical Christians. It's really only upon close observation that we begin to see that the doctrines are not just heterodoxical, they're heretical.

They are not phoney Christian organizations like the most of the denominations. Have you really searched their organization? Or you don't like them becasue you can not find anything wrong with them? They don't hide anything. All you have to do is ask them. And again if you don't know what Jesus wants us to do you don't know what to look or ask for.

 

[gingercat]

I am not a SDA member but from what I have researched, they are the most effective and fruitful denomination.

The Pharisees that Jesus called sons of the Devil were pretty effective at getting Jews to attend the seven feasts.

To the dark-minded observer it would have seemed that they were doing an effective and fruitful job also; and they were,... for themselves.

We have to watch out when we persecute faithful Christians!

Oh, is that what the scriptures say? "Watch out when you persecute faithful Christians?"

I think not.

I understand that many churchgoers and pastors call faithful and obedient ones "legalists". How warped. It is just absurd!

According to what view? Your's, mine, someone else's?

We hardly have faithful Christians and we gang attak them when we have the chance.

"Faithful Christians",.... as opposed to what, "Unfaithful Christians" maybe?

It seems that they want to keep people from being faithful and obedient to the Lord. What kind of Christians are we?

Which is it..... "they" or "we" Gingercat? You can't have it both ways?

Either you're a "they" or you're a "we".



Gingercat, men will be men, and fallen men will be fallen men.

Thus there is only one way to stop "persecuting" anyone,.... stop abiding in the fallen man.

The question though, is how does one do this.

And I'll let you in on a little.... tid bit,..... it isn't by holding onto a false head.


In love,
cj

cj, I know your ways and I won't take the bait. I have read enough of your posts. Good day cj.

 

[gingercat]

[quote="Lyric's Dad":cb94b]If evangelical means that we can say there is no requirement or need to follow Christ and do as He told us to, then you can count me out of the label too. Jesus was clear that if you love Him, you will keep His commands. I know the modern church has made every effort to explain that away and call it legalism but it does not take away from the fact that our actions are clearly attached to our faith in Christ and thus our destiny after this life.

What do you classify "modern" church as? Which churches are not "modern"? i.e. Which churches (or denominations) in your opinion do NOT do this?

Why would an Evangelical church teach that you do NOT have to follow and do what Jesus taught? That does not make sense at all. Have you actually been in a church which teaches this?

:-?

Well it is very touch and go. In one breath the church will teach that we need to take up our cross and follow Christ but in the other breath they will say that only faith is needed. The two just don't go hand in hand. While only the grace of Christ saves, our obedience is mandated. We are to try our very best, but in the end we know that it is only Christ that can redeem us.

Again, you do not define who "the church" is. So you have set up a straw man argument. If what you say is true, why not point to a church site or sermon where what you propose is being taught? It should be fairly easy.

All the previous unanswered questions to the previous post still apply.

:-?[/quote:cb94b]

My family has been doing it and sincere ones give response and the most of them we don't even know if they are reading them. I have talked to many pastors and they treated my like an idiot.

 

[Servant_2000]

I am not a SDA member but from what I have researched, they are the most effective and fruitful denomination. We have to watch out when we persecute faithful Christians! I understand that many churchgoers and pastors call faithful and obedient ones "legalists". How warped. It is just absurd! We hardly have faithful Christians and we gang attak them when we have the chance. It seems that they want to keep people from being faithful and obedient to the Lord. What kind of Christians are we?

They masquerade really well as evangelical Christians. It's really only upon close observation that we begin to see that the doctrines are not just heterodoxical, they're heretical.

They are not phoney Christian organizations like the most of the denominations. Have you really searched their organization? Or you don't like them becasue you can not find anything wrong with them? They don't hide anything. All you have to do is ask them. And again if you don't know what Jesus wants us to do you don't know what to look or ask for.

The same Adventist denomination, that tried to brainwash me, that brainwashed my wife, that so piously calls themselves the "Remnant Church", a title reserved for God to decide, has the nerve to call other parts of the body of Christ "Apostate Protestantism" -- such nerve!

And where do they place Baptists who were not part of the Protestant Reformation (they like to try and identify with), but herald all the way back to John the Baptist? Since they aren't "protestants" where do Adventists place them? Adventists are so preoccupied with the Seventh-day Sabbath, over all other articles of faith, it makes me sick.

Here is another wonderful word that they have coined to describe all the rest of Christianity that is not SDA: Babylonish

Babylon means confusion, and that term so aptly belongs with Adventism. The only thing we can do is continue to pray for them, individually and collectively, and to speak the truth in season and to pray that the words fall on listening ears.