Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

The move away from Legalism..

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Wavy,
True faith will always have works, that is not the issue, the issue is that Jesus alone saves and we can add nothing to this ultimate work. The Church, as Luther proclaimed, rises or falls on this doctrine.
Bubba
 
Gee..I really wonder if anyone has read the "OP" link..this discussion has had AD HOM tactics, LAW AND GRACE, kids playing in the sand box, one kicks sand and the other picks up his or her little red fire truck and throws it at the one who kicked sand.

Did anyone read the link actually? What have you gathered from it? Next post I will post what I gathered.

FYI I'm not getting into silly arguments with people PERIOD! I want to stay focused on the subject..and I don't want to be the SUBJECT! For I don't like the personal attacks.
 
Here are what I thought were a few good and clear facts from the article. From my original post..and it's not bashing..it's telling the truth.

The legalistic Adventist sects, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Christadelphians and the old-style Worldwide Church of God may vary in actual doctrine and teaching, but they have massive areas in common.

When William Miller sought to refocus Christianity away from, the previously accepted focus on Christ's atoning work on the Cross, to a new focus on the envisaged Second coming and on Bible prophecy (especially that found in Daniel and Revelation); he was drawing on strands which were in no way new, they had been attempted before in the Old World, but had not been able to prosper because of the wide accessibility of a more deeply Biblically grounded theology. The New World, however, was determined to be 'open' religiously, this certainly came to assist the new, exciting Adventist worldview, providing, and environment in which it could flourish.

All the Adventist-type cults and sects, as an American phenomenon, can be traced back to the 'groundwork' of Miller.

It matters not whether we speak of Joseph Smith, Ellen White, Hiram Edson, Joseph Bates or Charles Taze Russell (who became the first leader of the Watchtower Society - later Jehovah's Witnesses --in 1896.) Herbert W. Armstrong was very much of this theological lineage in all of his influences.

Miller, like almost every sect/cult founding Adventists who would follow him, had little deep knowledge of the Word of God and had not been a long-term practising Christian. He had never studied Greek or Hebrew and it is known that he only used the Bible and Crudens concordance in his work. All the founding Adventists followed a 'Me-only' approach in which they believed that God was revealing new truth - only to them! They even rejected the new understandings of other Adventists. In short, their approach became notable for their sublime sense of self-sufficiency! These men and women who have never been masters, of even one of the biblical languages in which the inspired texts were originally written, were never prepared to check their conclusions against the more time-honoured conclusions of men such as Luther, Calvin, Augustine. In this sense, it has been easy for Adventists, since they have never felt the need to defend their teachings against the more thoroughly biblically-grounded; and in Adventism itself, typically, the people are held in subjection to various charismatic leaders and do not dare pose questions. Further, most such sects have painted a picture (also very much part of Adventism) that they alone have all truth and that those who hold other biblical views are the tool of Satan!

David Koresh, of Waco, Texas fame, was also an Adventist, originally of the Seventh Day Adventist sect, later leaving to pursue his own highly idiosyncratic theological path.

We need to consider this question of Justification, since mainstream Christianity upholds Justification by Faith alone, while no Adventist cult/sect can wholly go along with this. Why? Because if one is finally justified, or made right with God, because of holding to the sufficiency of the Gospel - as traditionally presented - then why the need for Adventism with its morass of additional teachings? In some ways, it really is as simple as this. Of course, some Adventist groups do carefully attempt to uphold the bone fide Christian position in their publications, but as every former Adventist knows this is not the way it is for those within the group. The teaching is usually that, yes, Christ died for us, but it is not enough just to believe this, one also has to... and here the legalism is introduced.

Under the New Covenant, Man is 'made right' with God, in other words justified, by accepting Christ - there are no other grounds! The Adventist cults and sects do not fully appreciate, nor understand, what occurred upon the Cross....

The moment any Adventist sect founder comes up with their version of the gospel, usually requiring adherence to the import of their own writing and conceptions, the plot is lost! Paul has already illustrated that the Gospel doesn't need supporting with extra philosophies (Ephesians and Colossians), nor with any partial adherence to the Old Covenant (Galatians and Romans), believers in Christ were not to attempt to put 'New wine into old bottles' (Luke 5), the Old Covenant is now, for Christians , obsolete (Hebrews 8:13)

So does this mean that all the established Protestantor Baptist churches have got it right? Concerning their perception of the Gospel, yes. But they have occasionally taken on some dreadful influences. The rationalistic God - denying liberal theology of the last century, for instance, has taken a terrible toll and has been a destroyer of churches. But good conservative evangelical theology has fought back very well producing a plethora of biblically sound writers and theologians, especially in the UK. Names such as C.S. Lewis, John Stott, Alister McGrath and Martyn Lloyd-Jones spring to mind.
 
gingercat said:
How convenient. The OP is bashing SDA. It's OK to bash SDA and not anybody else?

it's not bashing. I'm posting the truth..and if the truth hurts..it's called TUFF LOVE!
 
cj said:
Servant_2000 said:
To CJ...

How do you relate the commands written by New Testament writers, such as Paul, to commands written by Old Testament writers, such as Moses?

All scripture is God-breathed.


[quote="Servant_2000":fa120]In fact, these rules seem stricter than those in the Old Testament, more finely tuned to the realities in which the New Testament Christians lived every day. For example, I can't find any law or commandment in the Old Testament that says, Thou shalt not become drunk.

Undoubtly the response desired by God is far more narrow than required pre-NT. And its easy to understand why, God knows that it is Christ in us who does the responding.

What in fact we have in the NT is the reality of God, which is the reality of the commandments, with us.


Servant_2000 said:
Question: Are we not "under" these New Testament strictures -- which are actually more severe -- just as much as old covenant people were "under" old covenant strictures?

We are under God, in the same way all men have been under God. The difference is we have God within us, this is what the NT grace is, God with men.

The NT requirements are not "harder" inthat we have God to empower us, the OT folk didn't. Yet at the same time scripture tells us that Satan will become more aggressive as his time is shortened, and this is what may make things seem more severe.

Hope these answers help.


In love,
cj[/quote:fa120]

Thank you CJ...
 
Servant,
I read the article, and though it starts out addressing the outcome of the Millerite movment; the final result of focusing on anything other than the Cross, was the whole issue of grace being substituted with works.
Bubba
 
SputnikBoy said:
Let me ask what may be a dumb question. Is anyone here advocationg that Christians be DISobedient to God's commands? It seems to me that some of you are promoting this. And, if you are not, is not the opposite to DISobedience ...um, obedience?

As to the charge that "someone here" is advocating antinomianism -- lawlessness, being in favor of doing away with lawkeeping, nihilism, pandemonium, anarchy, etc. -- I would say that "someone here" folk are in pretty good company, that of St. Paul.

For, the same charge was leveled against him Romans 3:5-8 NIV:

^^^^^^^^^^
But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing wrath on us? (I am using a human argumment.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" Why not say -- AS WE ARE BEING SLANDEROUSLY REPORTED AS SAYING AND AS SOME CLAIM THAT WE SAY -- "Let us do evil that good may result?" Their condemnation is deserved."
^^^^^^^^^^^
And so, my dear friends, if we can trust what Scripture is saying here -- and I, for one, do -- then those who accuse us of advocating anarchy are only engaging in slander. And, since slander is lawbreaking, WHO THEN ARE THE REAL LAWBREAKERS?

The answer is obvious: the real lawbreakers are the slanderers, those who falsely accuse those who are advocating Jesus Christ (His words and actions) as the true law.

Finally, Who does Scripture say is the accuser of Christ followers? It is none other than "that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray." Revelation 12:9 NIV.

^^^^^^^^^^^
"For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down." Revelation 12:10 NIV.
^^^^^^^^^^^

And that, my good friends, is something that happened at the cross, for the verb of the verse is in the past tense and John's Revelation of Jesus Christ was written in the First Century AD.

And so, therefore, take courage, you who advocate Jesus Christ as the law written on the tablets of your hearts:

Know that those who are accusing you are slandering not only you, but also your Father who is in Heaven and His Son Jesus Christ who is sitting, and has been sitting, at his right hand ever since his victory on the cross. (He CERTAINLY has not been spending 19 centuries waiting in any sanctuary vestibule!)

For those who thus slander "someone here" are also slandering God.

Praising Him,
 
Servant_2000 said:
gingercat said:
How convenient. The OP is bashing SDA. It's OK to bash SDA and not anybody else?

it's not bashing. I'm posting the truth..and if the truth hurts..it's called TUFF LOVE!

It becomes the truth if it is the majority. How sad that christianity became politics.
 
gingercat said:
Servant_2000 said:
gingercat said:
How convenient. The OP is bashing SDA. It's OK to bash SDA and not anybody else?

it's not bashing. I'm posting the truth..and if the truth hurts..it's called TUFF LOVE!

It becomes the truth if it is the majority. How sad that christianity became politics.

your words...

But the truth is there are wolves out there in sheeps clothing, ready to devour...nothing political about it.
 
gingercat said:
Servant_2000 said:
gingercat said:
How convenient. The OP is bashing SDA. It's OK to bash SDA and not anybody else?

it's not bashing. I'm posting the truth..and if the truth hurts..it's called TUFF LOVE!

It becomes the truth if it is the majority. How sad that christianity became politics.

I have no intention of getting into an argument with you. You have your opinions and I will respect whatever you can back up with Scripture alone.
 
Servant_2000 said:
The answer is obvious: the real lawbreakers are the slanderers, those who falsely accuse those who are advocating Jesus Christ (His words and actions) as the true law.

And Messiah taught Torah. If his words and his actions are the true law, this implies an "untrue" or "false" one. I'd like to know what this is.

Also keep in mind, that Messiah kept the Torah himself.

You make very bold statements and claims and accusations yourself in assuming that those who think you preach an incorrect interpretation of scripture are accusing you as well as the Father and the Son...

Always remember (and we're all guilty):

Matthew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

As far as you link? Same ol' same ol'.
 
Servant_2000 said:
gingercat said:
[quote="Servant_2000":7ffa3]
gingercat said:
How convenient. The OP is bashing SDA. It's OK to bash SDA and not anybody else?

it's not bashing. I'm posting the truth..and if the truth hurts..it's called TUFF LOVE!

It becomes the truth if it is the majority. How sad that christianity became politics.

your words...

But the truth is there are wolves out there in sheeps clothing, ready to devour...nothing political about it.[/quote:7ffa3]


We have thousands of wolves too. They are in every where. Even in this CF.
 
Servant_2000 said:
gingercat said:
[quote="Servant_2000":3b4e1]
gingercat said:
How convenient. The OP is bashing SDA. It's OK to bash SDA and not anybody else?

it's not bashing. I'm posting the truth..and if the truth hurts..it's called TUFF LOVE!

It becomes the truth if it is the majority. How sad that christianity became politics.

I have no intention of getting into an argument with you. You have your opinions and I will respect whatever you can back up with Scripture alone.[/quote:3b4e1]

Sure, all you want to do is talk about how much you can quote verses like the pharisees and scribes in the NT time. Even Satan quoted the verses to attack Jesus. The Bible warns about false brothers and tells us to look for the fruit. You don't want to talk about your church or your fruit. that's the way it is everywhere. Plenty of scholars without the deeds.
 
This thread is all about persecuting the faithful brothers. SDA is very small denomination even thogh they are powerfully being used by God. The bottom line is persecution. Jesus warns us that "if you follow me you will be persecuted." Watch out you persecuters!
 
Slandering gospel-keepers is the oldest of all SDA tricks. Don't fall for it. Romans 3:8
 
Servant_2000 said:
Slandering gospel-keepers is the oldest of all SDA tricks. Don't fall for it. Romans 3:8

Despite your warnings, Servant, I'll be toddling off to church tomorrow (Saturday) to join my other unsuspecting 'wolves in sheep's clothing' brethren in worshipping God. No doubt you will be doing something similar the following morning (Sunday). Just think about it. Don't you ever feel even a teeny bit foolish the way you carry on in threads such as this, Servant? I think I would. ;-)
 
SputnikBoy said:
Servant_2000 said:
Slandering gospel-keepers is the oldest of all SDA tricks. Don't fall for it. Romans 3:8

Despite your warnings, Servant, I'll be toddling off to church tomorrow (Saturday) to join my other unsuspecting 'wolves in sheep's clothing' brethren in worshipping God. No doubt you will be doing something similar the following morning (Sunday). Just think about it. Don't you ever feel even a teeny bit foolish the way you carry on in threads such as this, Servant? I think I would. ;-)

SpuntnikBoy..while your toddling off to church tomorrow..if I was you..I would be very concerned with Exodus 16:29. breaking the Sabbath, transgress the law of God and therefore commit ongoing, deliberate sin.

While I on the other hand, tomorrow I will Stay “in my place†on the Sabbath, keep the scriptural law, and break “the TRADITIONS of menâ€Â

Therefore your weekly transgression of the law -- as unambiguously stated in Exodus 16:29 – leaves you without excuse before God: GOING TO CHURCH (or anywhere) ON SABBATH IS A SIN.

BTW..I wish you would have stayed on topic..and stop using AD HOM tactics..they just don't work with me.
 
SputnikBoy said:
I'll be toddling off to church tomorrow....


Ahhh, correction,...... one doesn't "toddle off to church", one is an individual member of the Church.

Funny, but with all your perfect doctrine I would have thought you could get even the most basic of scriptural understanding,.... understood.


Try this next time,...... "I'll be toddling off to a meeting of some members of the Church tomorrow."

Which might very well be true as some of you may be saved.

What won't be happening though is a meeting of the Church on the ground of oneness in Christ.

Which means,.... you can "worship" all you want but nothing of it will be received by God in heaven.


In love,
cj
 
Servant_2000 said:
Slandering gospel-keepers is the oldest of all SDA tricks. Don't fall for it. Romans 3:8

I will give my personal testimony about SDA. I am very nit picky about selecting church and pastors. I have been very open mind to hear everyone who trys to be obedient to His teachings and commands. Doug Bachelor educated my family about the truth about the Sabbath and I could not find anything wrong about his information. So my family swiched Sabbath to Saturday instead of Sunday.

And Doug Bachelor never tries to please his congregation. All he wants to do is to lead them to be obedient to His teachings and commands. I believe he is doing super job as a spiritual leader IMHO. I wish we have more pastors like him.

All I have problem with SDA is that I am strong anty-military.
 
gingercat said:
Servant_2000 said:
Slandering gospel-keepers is the oldest of all SDA tricks. Don't fall for it. Romans 3:8

I will give my personal testimony about SDA. I am very nit picky about selecting church and pastors. I have been very open mind to hear everyone who trys to be obedient to His teachings and commands. Doug Bachelor educated my family about the truth about the Sabbath and I could not find anything wrong about his information. So my family swiched Sabbath to Saturday instead of Sunday.

And Doug Bachelor never tries to please his congregation. All he wants to do is to lead them to be obedient to His teachings and commands. I believe he is doing super job as a spiritual leader IMHO. I wish we have more pastors like him.

All I have problem with SDA is that I am strong anty-military.

You need to read the bible to see what's wrong with the SDA teachings about the Sabbath, paritcularly Hebrews 4:1-9, not check it out with your friends. :)
 
Back
Top