The move away from Legalism..

[Lyric's Dad]

[quote="Servant_2000":c944a]

[quote="Servant_2000":c944a]

Servant, May I ask which church or denomination do you belong to?

I smell ad hom...ok I'll bite..

Christ's church...Baptist...and you?

Baptist church; I was once member there. They are very much concentrate on popularity and business-like, like the most of the denominations.

No wonder you are bashing SDA. They are too righteous for you.

Yup I was right.. an AD HOM tactic.

He is right Ginger, there really was no point and necessity for your comment. It was an attack on the character of Baptists in general, calling them in effect unrighteous. Please refrain from personal attacks and debate the issues.[/quote:c944a]

How convenient. The OP is bashing SDA. It's OK to bash SDA and not anybody else?[/quote:c944a]Actually Ginger, it is not okay for anyone to bash another. I came into the thread on the page I responded on. I did not read the full thread but only saw your post. If in fact he is also doing the bashing then it needs to stop across the board. I was not chastising or anything, just trying to pull the discussion around to a functional place. No need to get upset.

 

[guibox]

Hi guibox:
What about "non-ceremonial" edicts that are not part of the 10 commandments such as Exodus 21:17: "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death"?

Will you argue for an important distinction between the mandate to not curse father and mother (which of course is effectively entailed by one of the 10 commandments) and the associated penalty (death).

Obviously as Christians we don't live under a theocracy like Moses and the Israelites do and their structure of government and punishment is much different then today.

It would be nice to get a real Jew's perspective on this ( :-D that sounds so stupid, 'Look mom, a REAL LIVE Jew!') Obviously Jews still feel under the law but they don't stone people to death for the same laws we follow or that they've followed since the time of Moses. Also, they don't sacrifice animals anymore.

So how do they reconcile the changes when they don't believe in any Christological fulfillment?

 

[wavy]

Also, they don't sacrifice animals anymore.

There's no temple.

So how do they reconcile the changes when they don't believe in any Christological fulfillment?

Depends on what you believe the "changes" are. As can be seen from your post, everything is "done away" or "fulfilled" [away] except for the ten.

But anyway, it's very simple. They don't realize any changes, necessarily. They have just become "more modern" in some aspects.

 

[cj]

cj, I know your ways and I won't take the bait. I have read enough of your posts. Good day cj.

Really Gingercat, you know as much about me as you know about the Lord, which really is not much.

There was no bait, just straight-up talk.

And your inability to respond is understandable.


In love,
cj

 

[gingercat]

Actually Ginger, it is not okay for anyone to bash another. I came into the thread on the page I responded on. I did not read the full thread but only saw your post. If in fact he is also doing the bashing then it needs to stop across the board. I was not chastising or anything, just trying to pull the discussion around to a functional place. No need to get upset.

Lyric, I am upset because the OP is bashing the SDA and I happened to believe they are one of the decent denominations. Actually I still can not find any other decent denomination besides SDA. I believe they are striving to be righteous and Christ like as a whole. I will not just sit and let people persecute them. I give them a lot of respect. (I have searched around many denominations and have talked to many pastors)

 

[cj]

To CJ...

How do you relate the commands written by New Testament writers, such as Paul, to commands written by Old Testament writers, such as Moses?

All scripture is God-breathed.

In fact, these rules seem stricter than those in the Old Testament, more finely tuned to the realities in which the New Testament Christians lived every day. For example, I can't find any law or commandment in the Old Testament that says, Thou shalt not become drunk.

Undoubtly the response desired by God is far more narrow than required pre-NT. And its easy to understand why, God knows that it is Christ in us who does the responding.

What in fact we have in the NT is the reality of God, which is the reality of the commandments, with us.

Question: Are we not "under" these New Testament strictures -- which are actually more severe -- just as much as old covenant people were "under" old covenant strictures?

We are under God, in the same way all men have been under God. The difference is we have God within us, this is what the NT grace is, God with men.

The NT requirements are not "harder" inthat we have God to empower us, the OT folk didn't. Yet at the same time scripture tells us that Satan will become more aggressive as his time is shortened, and this is what may make things seem more severe.

Hope these answers help.


In love,
cj

 

[PDoug]

Why do you insist on ignoring Galatians 5:4?

You and I have been over this, but like me, he may not be subject to your interpretation of Galatians 5:4 and thus does not have to "ignoring" it because you say he is.

You talk as if a person can 'interpret' the scriptures any way he pleases.

(NASB)

James 2

17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Galatians 5

4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

The only way the two scriptures above can agree, is if someone has a type of faith that causes good works to develop in him naturally. If you contend that the only type of good works there is, is the one that someone does directly, then per James 2:17, a person has to do this type of work for his faith to remain alive. In other words, a person must directly pursue good works for the sake of salvation / justification. However per Galatians 5:4, if someone pursues good works for justification, that person will lose his salvation. There is the first contradiction in your doctrine. A second contradiction can be found in the scripture below:

Galatians 3

11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."

Not only does the direct pursuit of works has no basis in faith, the two are incompatible, and if you are going to try and achieve justification through the direct pursuit of works, you do so without having faith.

Rather than seeking out a type of faith that causes righteousness to develop in you, you try to offer your own righteousness to God, and encourage others to do so.

Don't lie against people please. What we do is kept sure in faith, and so, it is not "our righteousness". We are just yeilding ourselves as servants to obey unto righteousness (Romans 6:16). Naturally, of course, those who stay faithful to reading the Word know what to do and do it gladly. :wink:

As I've said before, there are only two ways someone can try and achieve good works: 1) by directly pursuing them, or 2) by having a type of faith that naturally produces them. Given that fact that SputnikBoy insists that people should achieve works via the first way, what I said was true.

Oh, yeah, and before I forget:

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on יהוה out of a pure heart

If Timothy was mindlessly forced by the Spirit to do right, there's no reason to write this.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto יהוה, which is your reasonable service.

Nothing in 2 Timothy 2:22 or Romans 12:1 or anything else the bible contradicts what I said. A person is supposed to do everything through faith - including following righteousness (Galatians 3:11).

Note "your reasonable (logical/rational) service" also. Not "mindless control of forced right living by the Spirit".

According to you, we can't sin unless the Spirit fails and turns off "automatic pilot" and let's us go astray.

When you disparage me, you disparage the scriptures. As my post here indicates, it is scriptures that assert that a man in controlled either by his sinful nature (Romans 8:9), or by the Holy Spirit and his sinful nature (Galatians 5:17).

 

[Lyric's Dad]

To CJ...

How do you relate the commands written by New Testament writers, such as Paul, to commands written by Old Testament writers, such as Moses?

All scripture is God-breathed.

But not all translations. And there is much of scripture that has been left out of the Bible too.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Let me ask what may be a dumb question. Is anyone here advocationg that Christians be DISobedient to God's commands? It seems to me that some of you are promoting this. And, if you are not, is not the opposite to DISobedience ...um, obedience?

And, cj, why are we (God's NEW 'chosen people' apparently) any more filled with God than were people in the OT? I often feel that some of you are making up your own scriptures as you go. Just a feeling.

 

[wavy]

(NASB)

James 2

17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Galatians 5

4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

The only way the two scriptures above can agree, is if someone has a type of faith that causes good works to develop in him naturally.

But what you can't provide is where we are "forced". Good works come naturally because we have the willingness/faith/love to do them. Not because we are forced to.

These scriptures can easily be reconciled without resorting to "control" and "force", which is suprisingly (not really) absent from scripture.

If you contend that the only type of good works there is, is the one that someone does directly, then per James 2:17, a person has to do this type of work for his faith to remain alive.

Why do you play word games? You have been very vague, even when I asked you, about what the implications of "directly" are. Does it mean "consciously" or does it mean "to be justified"? Or is it both?

In other words, a person must directly pursue good works for the sake of salvation / justification.

No one is promoting this.

However per Galatians 5:4, if someone pursues good works for justification, that person will lose his salvation. There is the first contradiction in your doctrine

.

You obviously have not listened to what I have said then. No one can be justified by works because no one is perfect. But we do perform good works naturally (that I can agree on) because of love. This has nothing to do with robotically doing it because the Spirit is "making" you.

And that's why you continually promote it. It's obvious. Because you do not believe in keeping Torah. Something like the sabbath must be consciously kept. But because something like the sabbath is not what you want to keep, you must resort to vague, unscriptural doctrines of robotism where we do good works because the Spirit makes us.

So there is no contradiction. You are creating it.

Galatians 3

11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."

Not only does the direct pursuit of works has no basis in faith, the two are incompatible, and if you are going to try and achieve justification through the direct pursuit of works, you do so without having faith.

Wrong. You have misunderstood this scripture. I won't get into it (unless you ask, of course, or I am challenged) but this interpretation denies the words of Messiah 23:23 about the Torah and faith.

As I've said before, there are only two ways someone can try and achieve good works: 1) by directly pursuing them, or 2) by having a type of faith that naturally produces them.

This is more abstraction. You imply vague definitions and vague concepts of "directly".

Again, you've never touched on the simple logic. If you truly believe and trust some one (faith) you will do what they say do. And no, not for salvation. Because it is your duty. You could do it with a foul heart and lack grace and thus, not be saved. But a living faith is not like that. This is what you are not addressing.

This is how faith naturally produces works. Not because you are forced or "unconsciously" do them. But for the simple fact of the trust part. Where "unconsciously" fits in is what is not in scripture. You promote "unconsciously".

Given that fact that SputnikBoy insists that people should achieve works via the first way, what I said was true.

Hardy harr. 8-)

Nothing in 2 Timothy 2:22 or Romans 12:1 or anything else the bible contradicts what I said. A person is supposed to do everything through faith - including following righteousness (Galatians 3:11).

Yes, and "unconsciously" is not the issue.

Note "your reasonable (logical/rational) service" also. Not "mindless control of forced right living by the Spirit".

According to you, we can't sin unless the Spirit fails and turns off "automatic pilot" and let's us go astray.

When you disparage me, you disparage the scriptures.

Sure.

As my post here indicates, it is scriptures that assert that a man in controlled either by his sinful nature (Romans 8:9), or by the Holy Spirit and his sinful nature (Galatians 5:17).

Guided, not "controlled" or forced. You cannot produce the scripture that says "controlled" or "forced". Or the scripture, for that matter, that says we "unconciously" do works.

So you disparage yourself.

 

[wavy]

Let me ask what may be a dumb question. Is anyone here advocationg that Christians be DISobedient to God's commands? It seems to me that some of you are promoting this. And, if you are not, is not the opposite to DISobedience ...um, obedience?

The answer is simple. We are being told not to obey his commands. He really didn't mean them when he said them. They're good one minute and detestable at another, and yet they are still good, but yet they are bondage, and yet we should keep the commands of Torah, such as love Yahweh and our neighbor and yet the same time we shouldn't. At least not the ones we feel are too "old testament" and too "fleshly" and too "Jewish".

So we advocate the commands of the Torah/law and yet we don't at the same time. They are a shadow of things to come (Colossians 2:17) but yet keeping them takes us backwards to that "old" testament and "Jewish" way of life and that darn "bondage".

So Yahweh has picked and chosen which commands to keep in the Torah called the "law of love" and yet the Torah is done away with and we have the new "Christ NT commandments" at the same time all the "new" commands are really old ones that had to be reintroduced to a spiritually desolate nation.

And so we keep the commands and yet we don't because Yahweh commands us not to obey his commands and we keep the commands that tell us not to obey. And yet the Torah/Law is not destroyed, but it is nailed to the cross and while it is nailed to the cross, it is "fulfilled" and we keep the sabbath and kosher etc by thinking about how Christ fulfilled them so we could be lazy and not obey and because we "can't" even though Yahweh said it in the Torah and in the prophets by the Spirit that it must be done in love and faith and yet we do not have to because he commands us not to keep his commands.

And so while it is yet good, and holy, it is "death" and bondage and we should not keep it because we can't and yet we can because Christ lives in us and we think about how he does it in our mind even though we do not imitate and do them ourselves because it is all about glorifying Christ, but yet we glorify ourselves when we say "we don't need the commands because we are new creatures" even if we sin which means Christ forgives us when we sin but we can't stop sinning so we shouldn't try to do good works but let Christ do them in us and yet we sin so he must forgive us so we still can't obey his commands and yet we still claim how God looks at our heart and knows how we keep the commands in the spirit realm of Christ where he has fulfilled them so all we have to do is think about doing them because we only do works that the Spirit controls us to do because the commands are old and yet new and yet the ones we have heard from the beginning and --

But wait! Christ did tell us to honor the least of the Torah commandments and be called great and that the ones who didn't do them would be the least and super-Paul came to contradict Christ's words so we will take his over Christ's and explain the contradictions by "progressive revelation" which is not logical when two things directly contradict so we must come up with many excuses but we seem to love Paul more and yet we don't take the Christ's word because Paul corrected Christ later on and established Christ rather than the other way around but yet Paul taught Christ and yet he did not and contradicted him, but since he seems to say that the "law" is done away with more, we will look at Christ's words, which he said will not pass away, in light of what we think Paul meant because we do not want to keep what he said because it is too much bondage and Jewishness and besides, we just can't because we are not good and yet we are good because we are a new creature and Christ lives in us and yet we do not want to walk as he walked but imagine how he walked because he destroyed the Torah by fulfilling it although he did not destroy it but fulfilled it.

So Paul is the key even though he says we establish Torah but yet we do away with it and it has been nailed and is bondage but we establish the good part of it although it is all good and we keep what we "feel" we should keep because we have the Spirit working in us and yet we still sin, but we need forgivness because we can't even keep Christ's NT law and yet that ones does not need to be done away with and yet all scripture is inspired by God and every word out of God's mouth we live except when it seems too Jewish for us to keep because we are gentiles who don't need to keep the commands because we don't want to break the command of not to keep the commands therefore we don't keep them in Christ while we yet do keep them because he kept them and yet he lives in us and keeps them inside us for us because he knows we can't do it, but yet while we should imitate him, we do not because in our minds we imitate him and yet we will sin

BUT, forgivness is the key because grace is all we need and God looks at Christ's righteousness instead of ours because we are saved by faith alone and can sit back and just let the Spirit move through us and make us do things because we are good, new creatures but yet we are bad because we still sin and can't keep the commands because Christ did them for us...

Sorry, my brain just melted :o

 

[PDoug]

Please note the following posts that came from here:

I thought "yes" would be the obvious answer...

*EDIT*

I don't know your implications of "directly" though.

By directly I mean if God says you should love your brother, you actively / consciously take steps to love your brother.

Yes, actually we should. Because if he's telling you to do it, then obviously you have not been doing it.

That means you have to look at yourself, repent, pray and change your walk. Actively and consciously.

The posts above show that we have already covered what I mean when I say 'directly'. Superimpose the above with my previous message and re-read it.

That is all I have to say. You have not scratched one thing I have said. Also you ignore scriptures that I repeatedly show you which indicate that men are controlled by their sinful nature, or by the Spirit and their sinful nature. I've become tired of your elusive style of discussion, so I'm not going to respond any more than what I have stated above. Maybe I'll become inclined to have another discussion with you in the future, but I've become tired of the one we are having now. So, see you ...

 

[wavy]

The posts above show that we have already covered what I mean when I say 'directly'. Superimpose the above with my previous message and re-read it.

You didn't use "superimpose" in the correct way here.

I think you're reading far too between the lines of the bible.

You have not scratched one thing I have said.

Whatever you say.

Also you ignore scriptures that I repeatedly show you which indicate that men are controlled by their sinful nature, or by the Spirit and their sinful nature.

No scripture says we are "controlled" by the Spirit to do good works "unconsciously", however. I cannot ignore what does not exist.

(i like this guy -----> )

 

[guibox]

The answer is simple. We are being told not to obey his commands. He really didn't mean them when he said them. They're good one minute and detestable at another, and yet they are still good, but yet they are bondage, and yet we should keep the commands of Torah, such as love Yahweh and our neighbor and yet the same time we shouldn't. At least not the ones we feel are too "old testament" and too "fleshly" and too "Jewish".

So we advocate the commands of the Torah/law and yet we don't at the same time. They are a shadow of things to come (Colossians 2:17) but yet keeping them takes us backwards to that "old" testament and "Jewish" way of life and that darn "bondage".

So Yahweh has picked and chosen which commands to keep in the Torah called the "law of love" and yet the Torah is done away with and we have the new "Christ NT commandments" at the same time all the "new" commands are really old ones that had to be reintroduced to a spiritually desolate nation.

And so we keep the commands and yet we don't because Yahweh commands us not to obey his commands and we keep the commands that tell us not to obey. And yet the Torah/Law is not destroyed, but it is nailed to the cross and while it is nailed to the cross, it is "fulfilled" and we keep the sabbath and kosher etc by thinking about how Christ fulfilled them so we could be lazy and not obey and because we "can't" even though Yahweh said it in the Torah and in the prophets by the Spirit that it must be done in love and faith and yet we do not have to because he commands us not to keep his commands.

And so while it is yet good, and holy, it is "death" and bondage and we should not keep it because we can't and yet we can because Christ lives in us and we think about how he does it in our mind even though we do not imitate and do them ourselves because it is all about glorifying Christ, but yet we glorify ourselves when we say "we don't need the commands because we are new creatures" even if we sin which means Christ forgives us when we sin but we can't stop sinning so we shouldn't try to do good works but let Christ do them in us and yet we sin so he must forgive us so we still can't obey his commands and yet we still claim how God looks at our heart and knows how we keep the commands in the spirit realm of Christ where he has fulfilled them so all we have to do is think about doing them because we only do works that the Spirit controls us to do because the commands are old and yet new and yet the ones we have heard from the beginning and --

But wait! Christ did tell us to honor the least of the Torah commandments and be called great and that the ones who didn't do them would be the least and super-Paul came to contradict Christ's words so we will take his over Christ's and explain the contradictions by "progressive revelation" which is not logical when two things directly contradict so we must come up with many excuses but we seem to love Paul more and yet we don't take the Christ's word because Paul corrected Christ later on and established Christ rather than the other way around but yet Paul taught Christ and yet he did not and contradicted him, but since he seems to say that the "law" is done away with more, we will look at Christ's words, which he said will not pass away, in light of what we think Paul meant because we do not want to keep what he said because it is too much bondage and Jewishness and besides, we just can't because we are not good and yet we are good because we are a new creature and Christ lives in us and yet we do not want to walk as he walked but imagine how he walked because he destroyed the Torah by fulfilling it although he did not destroy it but fulfilled it.

So Paul is the key even though he says we establish Torah but yet we do away with it and it has been nailed and is bondage but we establish the good part of it although it is all good and we keep what we "feel" we should keep because we have the Spirit working in us and yet we still sin, but we need forgivness because we can't even keep Christ's NT law and yet that ones does not need to be done away with and yet all scripture is inspired by God and every word out of God's mouth we live except when it seems too Jewish for us to keep because we are gentiles who don't need to keep the commands because we don't want to break the command of not to keep the commands therefore we don't keep them in Christ while we yet do keep them because he kept them and yet he lives in us and keeps them inside us for us because he knows we can't do it, but yet while we should imitate him, we do not because in our minds we imitate him and yet we will sin

BUT, forgivness is the key because grace is all we need and God looks at Christ's righteousness instead of ours because we are saved by faith alone and can sit back and just let the Spirit move through us and make us do things because we are good, new creatures but yet we are bad because we still sin and can't keep the commands because Christ did them for us...

Sorry, my brain just melted :o

wavy, your post is a mash of confusion...however, I think that was your point, wasn't it? The 'law has been done away with/follow the law of love' camp's views make no sense whatsoever and are filled with contradictions and redundancies...complete foolishness when you really get down to the logistics of it all.

You have pointed this out quite well...in a confused, hap-hazard sort of way. :wink:

It would be nice to re-organize this is a more cohesive, avoid the run-on sentence structure, list..A comparison contrast format. You have shown some good ideas here about the confusion of the whole matter. It would be good to see it put together a bit better.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Let me ask what may be a dumb question. Is anyone here advocationg that Christians be DISobedient to God's commands? It seems to me that some of you are promoting this. And, if you are not, is not the opposite to DISobedience ...um, obedience?

The answer is simple. We are being told not to obey his commands. He really didn't mean them when he said them. They're good one minute and detestable at another, and yet they are still good, but yet they are bondage, and yet we should keep the commands of Torah, such as love Yahweh and our neighbor and yet the same time we shouldn't. At least not the ones we feel are too "old testament" and too "fleshly" and too "Jewish".

So we advocate the commands of the Torah/law and yet we don't at the same time. They are a shadow of things to come (Colossians 2:17) but yet keeping them takes us backwards to that "old" testament and "Jewish" way of life and that darn "bondage".

So Yahweh has picked and chosen which commands to keep in the Torah called the "law of love" and yet the Torah is done away with and we have the new "Christ NT commandments" at the same time all the "new" commands are really old ones that had to be reintroduced to a spiritually desolate nation.

And so we keep the commands and yet we don't because Yahweh commands us not to obey his commands and we keep the commands that tell us not to obey. And yet the Torah/Law is not destroyed, but it is nailed to the cross and while it is nailed to the cross, it is "fulfilled" and we keep the sabbath and kosher etc by thinking about how Christ fulfilled them so we could be lazy and not obey and because we "can't" even though Yahweh said it in the Torah and in the prophets by the Spirit that it must be done in love and faith and yet we do not have to because he commands us not to keep his commands.

And so while it is yet good, and holy, it is "death" and bondage and we should not keep it because we can't and yet we can because Christ lives in us and we think about how he does it in our mind even though we do not imitate and do them ourselves because it is all about glorifying Christ, but yet we glorify ourselves when we say "we don't need the commands because we are new creatures" even if we sin which means Christ forgives us when we sin but we can't stop sinning so we shouldn't try to do good works but let Christ do them in us and yet we sin so he must forgive us so we still can't obey his commands and yet we still claim how God looks at our heart and knows how we keep the commands in the spirit realm of Christ where he has fulfilled them so all we have to do is think about doing them because we only do works that the Spirit controls us to do because the commands are old and yet new and yet the ones we have heard from the beginning and --

But wait! Christ did tell us to honor the least of the Torah commandments and be called great and that the ones who didn't do them would be the least and super-Paul came to contradict Christ's words so we will take his over Christ's and explain the contradictions by "progressive revelation" which is not logical when two things directly contradict so we must come up with many excuses but we seem to love Paul more and yet we don't take the Christ's word because Paul corrected Christ later on and established Christ rather than the other way around but yet Paul taught Christ and yet he did not and contradicted him, but since he seems to say that the "law" is done away with more, we will look at Christ's words, which he said will not pass away, in light of what we think Paul meant because we do not want to keep what he said because it is too much bondage and Jewishness and besides, we just can't because we are not good and yet we are good because we are a new creature and Christ lives in us and yet we do not want to walk as he walked but imagine how he walked because he destroyed the Torah by fulfilling it although he did not destroy it but fulfilled it.

So Paul is the key even though he says we establish Torah but yet we do away with it and it has been nailed and is bondage but we establish the good part of it although it is all good and we keep what we "feel" we should keep because we have the Spirit working in us and yet we still sin, but we need forgivness because we can't even keep Christ's NT law and yet that ones does not need to be done away with and yet all scripture is inspired by God and every word out of God's mouth we live except when it seems too Jewish for us to keep because we are gentiles who don't need to keep the commands because we don't want to break the command of not to keep the commands therefore we don't keep them in Christ while we yet do keep them because he kept them and yet he lives in us and keeps them inside us for us because he knows we can't do it, but yet while we should imitate him, we do not because in our minds we imitate him and yet we will sin

BUT, forgivness is the key because grace is all we need and God looks at Christ's righteousness instead of ours because we are saved by faith alone and can sit back and just let the Spirit move through us and make us do things because we are good, new creatures but yet we are bad because we still sin and can't keep the commands because Christ did them for us...

Sorry, my brain just melted :o

Now why didn't you just say that in the first place? NOW I understand...thanks wavy. :smt047

 

[cj]

[quote="Servant_2000":581ff]To CJ...

How do you relate the commands written by New Testament writers, such as Paul, to commands written by Old Testament writers, such as Moses?

All scripture is God-breathed.

But not all translations. And there is much of scripture that has been left out of the Bible too.[/quote:581ff]

Well, thank God for His Spirit that dwells in us.

See Lyrics Dad, I've been studying this thing for some time now and the fact of what you said above is one of the most basic points one comes to understand. And what sometimes is amazing to me is when someone like you decides he needs to point out something as simplistic as this to me. Not to say I know everything, but honestly, for me what your comment above does is show you to be legalistic in your thinking and thus blind to the point of truth I made.

The fact is, all scripture is God breathed, punto finale.

You though want to bring in the human aspect, and for what reason? As apoint of contention? As something to disagree with?

Do you know Lyrics Dad that it is impossible to translate the scriptures into Chinese word for word and thought for thought? This is because many thoughts that are expressed in the scriptures are foreign to the Chinese, they don't have them in their culture thus they simply cannot comprehend what is being said if it is spoken to them in the original way.

What then? Do we need to educate all Chinese people in Greek and Hebrew first? Are we to tell them that God is only able to express Himself in a certain cultural context and not another?

Are you really willing to declare yourself that naive?


Tell me Lyrics Dad, what does "God-breathed" mean?

And what else is "God-breathed"?

How about the new spirit a believer receives, isn't this "God-breathed"?

And what about God speaking words?

Well, doesn't scripture declare the Christ is the Word of God?

So what do we have here then? I'll tell you,..... just Christ.


Consider this,..... "All scripture is just Christ."


Hope you get it.


In love,
cj

 

[Drew]

Obviously as Christians we don't live under a theocracy like Moses and the Israelites do and their structure of government and punishment is much different then today.

True. But I am interested in your opinion as to whether you believe that it is God's will that we still observe all the "non-cermonial" laws in the first 5 books, along with the prescribed penalties.

 

[guibox]

True. But I am interested in your opinion as to whether you believe that it is God's will that we still observe all the "non-cermonial" laws in the first 5 books, along with the prescribed penalties.

No, I don't believe so. As I said, God ran the Israelites as a theocracy and the laws of the land were different then. God worked with the culture at the time. He no more expects us to stone for adultery then He does to go and conquer lands for our inhabiting and getting rid of the godless culture that lives there. Times and countries back then were very imperialistic, conquering territory for some god or purpose.

Other than the US, we don't have that issue today... :-D kidding, kidding

 

[Bubba]

Did you all read the article of the original post? It was very enlightening, when one spends their time and energy (i.e., eschatology) on any focus other than the Cross, legalism, elitism and sacralism will soon follow. The equation is no longer Jesus plus nothing equals salvation, it now become Jesus plus, what ever work (or belief system), equals salvation.
In Christ Alone, Bubba

 

[wavy]

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Me none the least guilty. But it's Christ + something. And the "something" to this equation ain't "belief" or merely "faith in".