The move away from Legalism..

[gingercat]

Servant, May I ask which church or denomination do you belong to?

 

[Servant_2000]

Servant, May I ask which church or denomination do you belong to?

I smell ad hom...ok I'll bite..

Christ's church...Baptist...and you?

 

[Heidi]

I am not a SDA member but from what I have researched, they are the most effective and fruitful denomination. We have to watch out when we persecute faithful Christians! I understand that many churchgoers and pastors call faithful and obedient ones "legalists". How warped. It is just absurd! We hardly have faithful Christians and we gang attak them when we have the chance. It seems that they want to keep people from being faithful and obedient to the Lord. What kind of Christians are we?

Jesus said of false teachers and prophets; "By their fruits you will recognize them." I believe him. When one replaces Christ's death with the law instead of the other way around, he is a false teacher, plain and simply.

 

[Servant_2000]

To CJ...

How do you relate the commands written by New Testament writers, such as Paul, to commands written by Old Testament writers, such as Moses? Example Romans 13:13, NIV:

"Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy."

Are these not as much commandments and laws just as much as, "Thou shalt not commit adultery," or, "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife"?

In fact, these rules seem stricter than those in the Old Testament, more finely tuned to the realities in which the New Testament Christians lived every day. For example, I can't find any law or commandment in the Old Testament that says, Thou shalt not become drunk.

Yet in the New Testament the command not to become drunk occurs in at least five places:

Romans 13:13
Galatians 5:21
1 Timothy 3:3
Titus 1:7
1 Peter 4:3

Question: Are we not "under" these New Testament strictures -- which are actually more severe -- just as much as old covenant people were "under" old covenant strictures?

I respect your views and interpretations, JC. What do you think?

 

[gingercat]

I am not a SDA member but from what I have researched, they are the most effective and fruitful denomination. We have to watch out when we persecute faithful Christians! I understand that many churchgoers and pastors call faithful and obedient ones "legalists". How warped. It is just absurd! We hardly have faithful Christians and we gang attak them when we have the chance. It seems that they want to keep people from being faithful and obedient to the Lord. What kind of Christians are we?

Jesus said of false teachers and prophets; "By their fruits you will recognize them." I believe him. When one replaces Christ's death with the law instead of the other way around, he is a false teacher, plain and simply.

What's your point Heidi? Are you agreeing with the poster?

 

[gingercat]

Servant, May I ask which church or denomination do you belong to?

I smell ad hom...ok I'll bite..

Christ's church...Baptist...and you?

Baptist church; I was once member there. They are very much concentrate on popularity and business-like, like the most of the denominations.

No wonder you are bashing SDA. They are too righteous for you.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Christ's church...Baptist...and you?

Pretty exclusivist, don't you think?

 

[Servant_2000]

Servant, May I ask which church or denomination do you belong to?

I smell ad hom...ok I'll bite..

Christ's church...Baptist...and you?

Baptist church; I was once member there. They are very much concentrate on popularity and business-like, like the most of the denominations.

No wonder you are bashing SDA. They are too righteous for you.

Yup I was right.. an AD HOM tactic.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

[quote="Servant_2000":41cca]

Servant, May I ask which church or denomination do you belong to?

I smell ad hom...ok I'll bite..

Christ's church...Baptist...and you?

Baptist church; I was once member there. They are very much concentrate on popularity and business-like, like the most of the denominations.

No wonder you are bashing SDA. They are too righteous for you.

Yup I was right.. an AD HOM tactic.[/quote:41cca]He is right Ginger, there really was no point and necessity for your comment. It was an attack on the character of Baptists in general, calling them in effect unrighteous. Please refrain from personal attacks and debate the issues.

 

[Heidi]

I am not a SDA member but from what I have researched, they are the most effective and fruitful denomination. We have to watch out when we persecute faithful Christians! I understand that many churchgoers and pastors call faithful and obedient ones "legalists". How warped. It is just absurd! We hardly have faithful Christians and we gang attak them when we have the chance. It seems that they want to keep people from being faithful and obedient to the Lord. What kind of Christians are we?

Jesus said of false teachers and prophets; "By their fruits you will recognize them." I believe him. When one replaces Christ's death with the law instead of the other way around, he is a false teacher, plain and simply.

What's your point Heidi? Are you agreeing with the poster?

I was responding to the quote in my post that we are to recognize false teachers by their fruits, not simply embrace and endorse false teachers even though they call themselves Christians.

 

[guibox]

He is right Ginger, there really was no point and necessity for your comment. It was an attack on the character of Baptists in general, calling them in effect unrighteous. Please refrain from personal attacks and debate the issues.

Strange counsel cnsidering that this is exactly what servant2000 has done with my church, to the point of classifying EVERY SDA in his narrow view and saying that it 'makes him sick'.

Everything that servant said in his lengthy post about grace through faith, every SDA believes. His problem is thinking that we think sanctification is justification and that is nonsense. His ultimate problem is thinking that works don't play a part at all in our Christian life so in so doing, interprets our view of the law as justification.

This is servant's problem, not the SDAs. There are many in the SDA church that do not harp on the law or make it a salvation issue. 'We are saved by faith through grace, it is not of works lest any man should boast'

However,

'do we then make void the law through faith? Nay, we establish the law'
'Faith without works is dead'

For some strange reason servant, Heidi, cj and others can't seem to make this logical link and accept it for what it is. Instead they call those who follow the law 'legalists' and accuse them of 'trying to work their way to heaven'.

This is their hang-up, not our problem.

 

[Drew]

Greetings Guibox:

I am interested in your beliefs about the status of the "law" (which I, perhaps mistakenly, understand to be found in the first 5 books of the OT).

In your view, is it God's will that we (people who claim the name Christian) follow these particular laws?

 

[gingercat]

I am not a SDA member but from what I have researched, they are the most effective and fruitful denomination. We have to watch out when we persecute faithful Christians! I understand that many churchgoers and pastors call faithful and obedient ones "legalists". How warped. It is just absurd! We hardly have faithful Christians and we gang attak them when we have the chance. It seems that they want to keep people from being faithful and obedient to the Lord. What kind of Christians are we?

Jesus said of false teachers and prophets; "By their fruits you will recognize them." I believe him. When one replaces Christ's death with the law instead of the other way around, he is a false teacher, plain and simply.

What's your point Heidi? Are you agreeing with the poster?

I was responding to the quote in my post that we are to recognize false teachers by their fruits, not simply embrace and endorse false teachers even though they call themselves Christians.

Heidi, How about my question? Are your agreeing with the OP? Why are you not responding to my question? If you are not going to respond to the thread why do you bother to be in this thread?

 

[gingercat]

[quote="Servant_2000":3d6ea]

[quote="Servant_2000":3d6ea]

Servant, May I ask which church or denomination do you belong to?

I smell ad hom...ok I'll bite..

Christ's church...Baptist...and you?

Baptist church; I was once member there. They are very much concentrate on popularity and business-like, like the most of the denominations.

No wonder you are bashing SDA. They are too righteous for you.

Yup I was right.. an AD HOM tactic.[/quote:3d6ea]He is right Ginger, there really was no point and necessity for your comment. It was an attack on the character of Baptists in general, calling them in effect unrighteous. Please refrain from personal attacks and debate the issues.[/quote:3d6ea]

How convenient. The OP is bashing SDA. It's OK to bash SDA and not anybody else?

 

[guibox]

Greetings Guibox:

I am interested in your beliefs about the status of the "law" (which I, perhaps mistakenly, understand to be found in the first 5 books of the OT).

In your view, is it God's will that we (people who claim the name Christian) follow these particular laws?

Hi Drew. In my opinion, the biggest battle against the law is due to the validity of the Sabbath. I believe that the 10 commandments (all of them) are still valid today and were not part of the laws done away with by Christ. The ceremonial laws and laws that pointed toward the Messiah are no longer valid for the Christian.

However, the 10 commandments are God's moral law not restricted to the Jew. Laws such as not killing, worshipping other God's and coveting are laws even the heavenly kingdom follows. These laws were not just magically conjured up on Sinai for only a certain race of people. Satan broke the first commandment, God created the 4th commandment at creation, Cain broke the 6th commandment.

What is it's purpose and function in the NT? All throughout the OT, God promised that He would put the law into the people's hearts. This was promised and looked forward to by God and the people without negating the validity of keeping that same moral law. Hence, this process of putting it in our hearts in no way negates it's validity.

Rather, we see that under grace, the law is an expression and response to Christ's loving gift. Through the Spirit, the law is internalized and becomes an automatic expression. Even more so, the law is MAGNIFIED and made more important and meaningful by Christ (from actually committing adultery to lusting).

The 10 commandments are love. The 'commandment of love' is not dichotomous to the 10 commandments, they ARE love. So the belief that Jesus' words 'If you love me keep my commandments' is not talking about the 10 commandments but Christ's laws of love is COMPLETELY FOOLISH AND LUDICROUS THINKING.

They are the same thing. James refers to the commandments as the 10. There are not two sets of commandments.

 

[Servant_2000]

I put Guibox on my ignore list long time ago..whatever you say Gui..I know it's not going to be read by me. And I have my reason...you won't listen to me, so why should I listen to you. Simple as that.

 

[Drew]

Hi guibox:

Thanks for your answer - I am generally sympathetic to your position about this, but I still have some questions. What about "non-ceremonial" edicts that are not part of the 10 commandments such as Exodus 21:17: "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death"?

Will you argue for an important distinction between the mandate to not curse father and mother (which of course is effectively entailed by one of the 10 commandments) and the associated penalty (death). In other words, do you think that God's will is for a transgressor to be put to death?

Just to let you know where I am coming from, I think that we should not put people to death for any crimes. Why do I say this? I think that Jesus' act of grace on the cross is an example for us to follow - and grace "trumps" justice (stated somewhat informally).

 

[gingercat]

Ok, SDA bashers, would you tell us exactly what they are doing wrong? I have been listening to Doug Bachelor for quite some time and I can't find anything unbiblical about his messages. On the contrary, he is encouraging his congregation to be obedient to Jesus' teachings. And I looked into their missions. They are the most fruitful in out reach in foreign missions. I have started support their foreign ministry.

 

[wavy]

Context, Jesus was talking to Jews who were zealous for the law, particulalry the 10 C.s and especially the 4th commandment.

Actually, this is wrong. I think you stated "particularly the 10 C.s and especially the 4th commandment" because you are arguing against SDAs. However, Jews did not understand the "law" to be just the 10 commandments.

If He is really saying "...keep MY commandments" He is contrasting and confronting there status quo, trying to open their eyes to the kingdom of God.

Sadly, this is your opinion and is not supported by the scripture. Actually, see John 7:19. One of the first things Peter said, for example, when he met the Messiah was that he was a sinful man (Luke 5:8).

Also, his commandments are whatever he told them to do specifically. This could include baptism and preaching and loving one another as he showed them to (the correct way of Torah).

To contrast commandments in the Torah to some new, different commandments that he gave to replace the "old" ones are not in the context and must be superimposed.

No, He was challenging them to look at HIS commands as opposed the the 10 (or 613 for that matter).

Superimposed.

And for all you know, he could have very well been speaking of the 613. If you look all throughout the Tanach, we'll find that the main reason prophets were sent to Israel is because they forsook the Torah. Are we to assume they were somehow doing it the correct way all of a sudden in the 1st century?

And are you playing the Son vs. Father, or if you believe that the Son is the one from the Tanach, are you playing the Son vs. Son game?

"Don't keep my commandments. Just keep my commandments".

or,

"Don't keep my Father's commandments. Keep mine".

This is what you are telling everyone.

And Christ's NT Commandments omit Sabbath-keeping,

Nowhere in scripture. Please read Matthew 5:17

although Paul permits it, but not as a command, in Romans 14.

The word "sabbath" is not found anywhere in Romans 14.

all of Christ's commandments are summed up in the one word: Love. "Thou shalt love!" When we understand that this law -- the ultimate law -- is the hardest one of all to keep, then we have nowhere else to go but to the foot of the cross. But until we do realize that, we have lots
and lots of other places to go.

Again, you superimpose a distinction. You are refuted by the Messiah himself in Matthew 22:37-40 and Luke 10:26-28 where he affirms that these are original commandments from which all the rest hang. Not "Christ NT commandments" (something totally absent from scripture).

Mark 12:28-21 proves this also as he quotes Moses' words. He also said there are no commandments greater than the two ones he quoted. He did not say there are no other commandments.

Anyway, Matthew 5:17-19 should be clear enough. No one should have to go to extra lengths to make it clear.

Still...people do twist Matthew 5:17-19, playing mental gymnastics with it. "He didn't destroy or do away with it! He fulfilled it!" they say. Well the implication is that he "fulfilled" it so he could do away with it and nail it to his cross, thus his whole message is butchered regardless of the futile attempts to reconcile it from an anti-Torah viewpoint.

 

[wavy]

Why do you insist on ignoring Galatians 5:4?

You and I have been over this, but like me, he may not be subject to your interpretation of Galatians 5:4 and thus does not have to "ignoring" it because you say he is.

Are we to disobey God's commandment that we are not pursue the law, in order to achieve obedience to Him?

Wrong. This was for justification. To be absolved from guilt. If you sin, no amount of good works, law or otherwise, can make up for it.

Rather than seeking out a type of faith that causes righteousness to develop in you, you try to offer your own righteousness to God, and encourage others to do so.

Don't lie against people please. What we do is kept sure in faith, and so, it is not "our righteousness". We are just yeilding ourselves as servants to obey unto righteousness (Romans 6:16). Naturally, of course, those who stay faithful to reading the Word know what to do and do it gladly. :wink:

Oh, yeah, and before I forget:

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on יהוה out of a pure heart

If Timothy was mindlessly forced by the Spirit to do right, there's no reason to write this.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto יהוה, which is your reasonable service.

Note "your reasonable (logical/rational) service" also. Not "mindless control of forced right living by the Spirit".

According to you, we can't sin unless the Spirit fails and turns off "automatic pilot" and let's us go astray.