The Mystery of works with salvation: Those included vs those excluded

[Carry_Your_Name]

If perfect obedience to God is a heresy, then men are counting on their own works for their salvation.
We can be perfectly obedient, in Christ, so only those outside of Christ are not perfectly obedient.

If you wanna discuss perfect obedience, go to another thread or open your own, don't derail the OP's.

 

[Hopeful 2]

If you wanna discuss perfect obedience, go to another thread or open your own, don't derail the OP's.

I am discussing works for salvation.
But that automatically brings up works of salvation, post conversion.
If the works are evil, where was the conversion ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I am discussing works for salvation.
But that automatically brings up works of salvation, post conversion.
If the works are evil, where was the conversion ?

No you're not. If you have any work OF salvation, then stop preaching your heresy, there's nothing more evil than equating yourself with Jesus.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Progressive sanctification is code for perpetual sinning.

Well said, thank you. I always try to say things succinctly and to the point. And so I apreciate it when I see others do it.

I'll remember it for future use, because it'ss spot on. 'Progressive' sanctification is the sinner's version of lukewarm repentance. It's never complete in this life, while still sinning to the grave, more or less.

They honor one another for sinning less than before, rather than just go ahead and do as God commands, and repent from all their sinning now for Jesus' sake, and their own soul's sake.

Jerem
{3:10} And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

Time is running out, and tomorrow is not promised.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Well said, thank you. I always try to say things succinctly and to the point. And so I apreciate it when I see others do it.

You are welcome.

I'll remember it for future use, because it'ss spot on. 'Progressive' sanctification is the sinner's version of lukewarm repentance. It's never complete in this life, while still sinning to the grave, more or less.

I can't think of any false doctrine that doesn't accommodate sin.

They honor one another for sinning less than before, rather than just go ahead and do as God commands, and repent from all their sinning now for Jesus' sake, and their own soul's sake.

Yep.

Jerem
{3:10} And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
Time is running out, and tomorrow is not promised.

For sure.
How long have you been a non-sinner ?

 

[RBDERRICK]

This world was created by God, all things are sacred,

All things of nature are clean of themselves, because they are created clean. But only pagans worship the trees and the waters and the hills as 'sacred', such as the groves and the high places.

nothing is "secular".

Secular is a term used for human activity that is not with faith toward God, and unto the Lord.

It's man's works of His own mind and will. The Bible calls them works of our own righteousness, wickedness, and goodness.

Paul was a tentmaker, Jesus was a craftsman, Peter was a fisherman, David, Moses and Jacob were all shepherds, that didn't make them less holy in God's eyes.

Working to provide for oneself is a commandment of the Lord, that is honored by Him.

Reducing the good and righteous works of God to some form of church 'building service', shows man's own degraded religious version of doing good and right by our neighbors.

Cleaning one's own house and building is good, then "what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same."

 

[RBDERRICK]

You can't earn salvation as much as you can't buy love.

Repenting of sinning for Jesus' sake is not earning mercy, but is rewarded with mercy, even as the glorious Victor grants full pardon to them that unconditionally surrender to Him and His lordship.

And doing His service in works of His good pleasure and righteousness, is also rewarded as worthy of His eternal inheritance in the resurrection of the dead.

Rev
{3:4} Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. {3:5} He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Collossians
{3:23} And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; {3:24} Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. {3:25} But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
2 Peter
{2:13} And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, [as] they that count it pleasure to riot in the daytime. Spots [they are] and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

Rev
{16:5} And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. {16:6} For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Continued unrepented unrighteousness unto the grave, is rewarded as worthy of everlasting shame from God in the resurrection. Less trespassing the Lord unto the grave, is no more worthy of His inheritance, than full rioteous living.

Indeed, the Lord would rather we be cold or hot, rather than lukewarm to His name. The cold can wholly repent, even as the wholly sought their own pleasure, but the half hearted satisfy themselves with a warm blanket for a less sinful bed.

Hosea
{7:8} Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.

"Progressive sanctification" is a term for spiritual growth in Christ,

It's a term used by the less sinful, for learning how to do less evil than before.

Growth in Christ Jesus is by disobeying God at all, not by sinful man's less often version.

only those who truly know Christ have that.

The rebuke of 1 John 1 to the lukewarm believer, is that there is no growth in Christ Jesus by disobeying the Father. Nor walking in His light, much less growing in the son's own example of obedience to the truth.

Only those who repent of all disobedience to the Father, have recieved the faith, knowledge, and blessedness of the Lord, that obeys and walks with Him at all times.

Sons of God only grow in Christ Jesus by learning obedience in all things, even as the Son Himself learned obedience as a man through the things which He suffered.

Heb
{5:8} Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; {5:9} And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Disobedience at any time toward God is not the Son's faith rewarded with His resurrection. It's only the faith of disobedient children with their own reward of shame and death toward God.

For those who reject Christ or play religion, they're not even sanctified in the first place,

True. Rejecting repentance from all sins and trespasses, is rejecting God's command to unconditionally surrender to His resurrected Son.

All other convenient incomplete repentance is play-play religion of the lukewarm.

Jerem
{3:10} And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

With the Lord, hardening ourselves to keep any sinful pleasures, is hardening ourselves to keep all pleasures of the world.

James
{2:10} For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point,] he is guilty of all. {2:11} For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Faith to repent of some sinful pleasures, but not all, is man's own faith alone. It's not the faith of Jesus given only to them that repent with a whole heart, rather than only half-heartedly.

Collossians
{3:23} And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; {3:24} Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. {3:25} But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

they're those who practice lawlessness whom the Lord doesn't know.

Exactly. Anyone doing any lawlessness at any time, is a child of disobedience with the world, not an obedient son of God with the Lord.

The purpose of this doctrine is to rebuke the idea of "a golden ticket to heaven" or "God's insurance policy", it's not about work based religion.

True. Neither by works alone nor by faith alone, is any soul justified by Jesus Christ with the Father.

Doing works without the faith of Jesus from a pure heart, is man's own filthy rags to the Father. And faith without doing the works of God through the faith of Jesus, is dead to God.

The problem with lukewarm repenters, who never comletely repent to sin not in this life, is that they think their own lame sacrifice of conditional surrender to the victiorious Lord and true God, is acceptable to the Father.

A partially crucified old man and life, whether more or less, is not worthy of the whole burnt offering and sacrfice of God's dear Son unto death on a cross.

Romans
{6:6} Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him,] that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Half crucified is half justified. It's the lukewarm gospel of man's sinful religion.

Matthew
{16:24} Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. {16:25} For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Half lost is half saved. It's by one's own faith alone, not by the faith of Jesus Christ.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

All things of nature are clean of themselves, because they are created clean. But only pagans worship the trees and the waters and the hills as 'sacred', such as the groves and the high places.

We don't "worship" those things like the Climate Crisis cultists do, and I never stated or implied we do. We see God's fingerprints in all his creations, such as the golden ratio, that's God's general revelation in addition to the bible.

Working to provide for oneself is a commandment of the Lord, that is honored by Him.

Reducing the good and righteous works of God to some form of church 'building service', shows man's own degraded religious version of doing good and right by our neighbors.

Cleaning one's own house and building is good, then "what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same."

My point was to rebuke the idea that only clerical, religious work in the church is considered sacred, while all other things are "secular". Whatever you're called to do, that's sacred to God, and we ought to give thanks to God, Col. 3:17.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

It's a term used by the less sinful, for learning how to do less evil than before.

Growth in Christ Jesus is by disobeying God at all, not by sinful man's less often version.

True. Rejecting repentance from all sins and trespasses, is rejecting God's command to unconditionally surrender to His resurrected Son.

The word "repentance" means a change of mind. It's not about behavior modification, but seeing things from a new perspective. What is used to be a pleasure for you is now an abomination, what is used to be an abomination for you is now a pleasure. Those pleasure may be fun at the moment, but in the long term, it corrupts your soul and wastes your time. You don't just take less pleasure, like eating less junk food, watching less porn, cussing less often; you stop doing those things altogether, you live as a new man, and start focusing on what God calls you to do. You don't just resisting temptations with your willpower, when you're led by the Holy Spirit, you're no longer tempted, those temptations have no power over you, they're not appealing to you as they were before, you have the Father's business to tend to.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I can't think of any false doctrine that doesn't accommodate sin.

Exactly. Sincerely, it does my heart good to hear from others, who have seen through all the fine speeches, scholarly endeavors, and loudly proclaimed faith of unrepented or half-repented sinners.

I have learned from themselves, that it always come back to one principle thing: It's all about being saved and justified, while disobeying and sinning against the Lord. Whether from 'time to time', or at any time.

It's not just a matter of falling to sin, and in need of God's repentance and forgiveness. It's a matter of believing we are still saved and reconciled to God, while falling to sin. Their own restoration is a foregone conclusion, because they need no reconciliation to God.

That presumptive mindset does away with the fear of the Lord, which is taught to believers, by the ungodliest doctrine of all: We are already forgiven of all our sinning, that we certainly will do, both present, and future.

That one doctrine alone, sums up all the error of half-hearted repentance, with justification by faith alone:

1. Being already saved and justified forever, with no need to fight sin for our soul's sake.
2. We will keep sinning, more or less.
3. We are already forgiven, when we do sin again.
4. We are not as the children of disobedience, who need reconciliation with God, when we are disobeying with them.

It's the mockery of Jesus Christ's grace and faith, that is most despised in the world. It's not just Christians sinning, but it's sinful Christians telling unbelievers, that they are going to hell for their sinning, but we are not, because we 'have faith' in Jesus Christ.

That's not the faith of Jesus that always does the will of the Father. That's the faith of the lukwarm. That's the sinner's faith alone, that they preach for their own salvation and sanctfication of sinning less, but certainly not all.

They are zealous in faith, and lukewarm in works. They're only zeal is in believing they are saved and justified with God, while pandering to 'producing' more good works than evil.

I have seen they are also most zealous about condemning any believer, who preaches the gospel of repentance from all sins and trespasses, and sin not.

To them, such doers of righteousness at all times are the only ones not saved by their faith. Because if so, then their own faith alone not doing God's righteousness at all times, is disproven as the only faith on earth.

Their own faith in continued sinning with justification, is proven to be unbelief in walking as Jesus walked without sinning.

Yep.

For sure.
How long have you been a non-sinner ?

I was once a whole sinner. I've also been a double minded beleiver, but now by the grace of God I am a whole hearted believer and walker with my Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[RBDERRICK]

"the heresy of sinless perfection."

So, sinless perfection on earth is heresy. So much for Jesus' righteous example. We see how their zeal to denounce any sons of God walking as the Son walked, the walk of God's own Son is forgotten, and denounced as heresy.

Matthew
{12:36} But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. {12:37} For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

They idly say such things, without considering the fear and judgment of the Lord, because they say it among themselves all the time, and preach it to all their members.

Here is where we see the condemnation of doing God's righteousness at all times. And the only heretics are those preaching it.

We see how such proclamations (under the guise of humility) encompass Jesus' own righteous example, as though no man has ever lived uprightly with the Lord daily, without sinning against Him.

And the commandment for God's sons to walk His own Son, is disannullled as heretically impossible.

Mark
{7:9} And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Job
{40:7} Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. {40:8} Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? (by your own faith alone...)

And when they then go on to mock having a perfect heart and blameless living with the Lord, it is laughed off as hysterically impossible.

2 Peter
{3:3} Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

 

[Hopeful 2]

Exactly. Sincerely, it does my heart good to hear from others, who have seen through all the fine speeches, scholarly endeavors, and loudly proclaimed faith of unrepented or half-repented sinners.

Mine too.

I have learned from themselves, that it always come back to one principle thing: It's all about being saved and justified, while disobeying and sinning against the Lord. Whether from 'time to time', or at any time.
It's not just a matter of falling to sin, and in need of God's repentance and forgiveness. It's a matter of believing we are still saved and reconciled to God, while falling to sin. Their own restoration is a foregone conclusion, because they need no reconciliation to God.
That presumptive mindset does away with the fear of the Lord, which is taught to believers, by the ungodliest doctrine of all: We are already forgiven of all our sinning, that we certainly will do, both present, and future.
That one doctrine alone, sums up all the error of half-hearted repentance, with justification by faith alone:
1. Being already saved and justified forever, with no need to fight sin for our soul's sake.
2. We will keep sinning, more or less.
3. We are already forgiven, when we do sin again.
4. We are not as the children of disobedience, who need reconciliation with God, when we are disobeying with them.
It's the mockery of Jesus Christ's grace and faith, that is most despised in the world. It's not just Christians sinning, but it's sinful Christians telling unbelievers, that they are going to hell for their sinning, but we are not, because we 'have faith' in Jesus Christ.
That's not the faith of Jesus that always does the will of the Father. That's the faith of the lukwarm. That's the sinner's faith alone, that they preach for their own salvation and sanctification of sinning less, but certainly not all.
They are zealous in faith, and lukewarm in works. They're only zeal is in believing they are saved and justified with God, while pandering to 'producing' more good works than evil.
I have seen they are also most zealous about condemning any believer, who preaches the gospel of repentance from all sins and trespasses, and sin not.
To them, such doers of righteousness at all times are the only ones not saved by their faith. Because if so, then their own faith alone not doing God's righteousness at all times, is disproven as the only faith on earth.
Their own faith in continued sinning with justification, is proven to be unbelief in walking as Jesus walked without sinning.

Their faith in in one, or more, false doctrines that accommodate sin.

I was once a whole sinner. I've also been a double minded beleiver, but now by the grace of God I am a whole hearted believer and walker with my Lord Jesus Christ.

How long has your new life glorified God ?

 

[brightfame52]

Carry_Your_Name

The word "repentance" means a change of mind.

Yes and its something Christ as Saviour must give us. Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Its a reward for His Exaltation to the Right Hand of God

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

True. Neither by works alone nor by faith alone, is any soul justified by Jesus Christ with the Father.

Ultimately it's about our personal, intimate relationship with Jesus. Pastor Paul washer once made this famous analogy: suppose the president hosts a gathering in the White House, and you wanna attend. If you know the president very well, but the president doesn't know you, never even heard of you, no matter what credentials you have, how important and prestigious you are, how much work you've done for the president in his name, you're probably gonna be rejected at the gate, you're not even allowed to come close; however, if the president knows YOU personally, he has a good relationship with you, not only do you wanna see him, he wanna see you at his gathering too, then you'll have a good chance to be invited.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Ultimately it's about our personal, intimate relationship with Jesus. Pastor Paul washer once made this famous analogy: suppose the president hosts a gathering in the White House, and you wanna attend. If you know the president very well, but the president doesn't know you, never even heard of you, no matter what credentials you have, how important and prestigious you are, how much work you've done for the president in his name, you're probably gonna be rejected at the gate, you're not even allowed to come close; however, if the president knows YOU personally, he has a good relationship with you, not only do you wanna see him, he wanna see you at his gathering too, then you'll have a good chance to be invited.

Imagine how poor your chances of getting in are if you are working against Him.