The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[ivdavid]

I think that its a misunderstanding of terms and idea's.

I think we all are making an error in equating atonement with the offer of atonement. Aren't they two separate things?

I think savedbygrace57 means that atonement is not for all when he says that Jesus didn't die for all and the opponent objects to it saying Jesus died for all thereby giving all, the offer of atonement. We're discussing apples and oranges.

I don't think anybody says that 'atonement' is for all - obviously Jesus did not remit the sins of the unbelievers - the sins for which they shall face righteous judgment. In that sense, atonement is limited.

But if we're discussing the scope of the 'offer of atonement', it has to be to all. And this is my explanation as to why I believe Christ's offer is to all. What is the law of faith - that everyone who believes in Jesus Christ for his salvation, is saved. Now why does God mention faith in the salvation process. He does not make it a work-based salvation where faith becomes a 'work' (this is the paradox of John 6:28-29). But it is so because He wants to hold the unbelieving world further accountable under their sins,- because they did not believe in Jesus (John 3:18-20), - in order to shew forth His righteousness in judging them(Psa 51:3-4, Rom 3:4-8) . But how can they be judged of not believing if they never had the offer to believe?

And please let's not throw up hypothetical qns of whether Christ has atoned for the unbeliever who wants to believe - the qn breaks down there because he is no longer an unbeliever but a believer and we hold that Christ has indeed efficaciously and sufficiently atoned for the sins of the believers.

Therefore, I find no harm in holding these 2 beliefs -
1. There is limited atonement in the sense that Christ's blood covers only the sins of His Church.
AND
2. The offer of atonement is unlimited ie Jesus died for all men [to be given the offer of justification/reconciliation/atonement].

 

[savedbygrace57]

By THEIR choice, not God's.

Christ died for all.


(And yes, proverbs, I know I'm wasting my time.)

No, its by God's choice, since God did not send Jesus to die for their sins. All those Christ died for, have no sins for God to punish

And they shall be made righteous rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[cleanfreak]

No, its by God's choice, since God did not send Jesus to die for their sins. All those Christ died for, have no sins for God to punish

For God so loved the world?.......
He sent his Son to die for the world.

For all have sinned?......
We all have sins, they are just covered by the blood of the Lamb.

Bible basics. It really is simple. :yes

 

[savedbygrace57]

Still looking at rom 5 10, If a person has been reconciled to God by the death of His Son, then that ensures one for whom Christ died shall be a believer !

One cannot be reconciled to God and continue their whole life as a unbeliever

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

. Now according to rom 5 10 what reconciles one to God ?

A. Their Faith

b.Their repentnace

c. The Death of God's Son
​

 

[Pizzaguy]

Therefore, I find no harm in holding these 2 beliefs -
1. There is limited atonement in the sense that Christ's blood covers only the sins of His Church.
AND
2. The offer of atonement is unlimited ie Jesus died for all men [to be given the offer of justification/reconciliation/atonement].

I don't even agree with that! I'll take it farther, the offer is unlimited and the atonement is unlimited - He died for all, and His sacrifice covers us all - provided we accept the gift He has tried to give us. He Himself said that he did this to "Draw all men unto me" - that was His wish, I can find nothing that He said that would change my mind.

It is left up to the individual to accept the gift, but any who accept are included, covered, saved.

If you read sbg's posts, he almost says the same thing as I do - this thread comes close to a troll's paradise - because no one here believes that any person who accepts the gift is left without salvation.

The whole thing is semantics, a careful word play.

 

[savedbygrace57]

For God so loved the world?.......
He sent his Son to die for the world.

For all have sinned?......
We all have sins, they are just covered by the blood of the Lamb.

Bible basics. It really is simple. :yes

All have sinned, but all have not had their sins died for, for all whom Christ died for their sins, God has no reason to punish them for, and Christ death makes them righteous rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

And since we know all will not be made righteous, then Christ has not died for them, very simple reasoning..

 

[cleanfreak]

All have sinned, but all have not had their sins died for, for all whom Christ died for their sins, God has no reason to punish them for, and Christ death makes them righteous rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

And since we know all will not be made righteous, then Christ has not died for them, very simple reasoning..

It seems we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[savedbygrace57]

It seems we will have to agree to disagree.

You disagree with scripture !

 

[cleanfreak]

You disagree with scripture !

good try. :biglol

 

[Drew]

In Romans, Paul goes out of his way to undermine the "national boast" of Israel - namely that they are God's covenant people simply in virtue of their ethnicity – by being born into a people under the Law of Moses. This is not so, Paul argues, and refers to the establishment of the covenant in Genesis 15 and repeats the key statement "Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness".

Faith, not nationality from birth, is the criteria for covenant membership. It would seem awfully odd that Paul would argue this point and yet also believe that people are indeed “born unto salvation†after all by believing the existence of an "elect".

Even though the elect unto salvation are not (under the conventional Calvinist position), of course, national Israel - they still would constitute a set of people who are essentially privileged by birth unto salvation, just as the Jews believed that they were automatically members of the covenant by virtue of being born an ethnic Jew. It seems to me that this is the kind of thinking that Paul clearly repudiates in Romans.

 

[Sinthesis]

In Romans, Paul goes out of his way to undermine the "national boast" of Israel - namely that they are God's covenant people simply in virtue of their ethnicity – by being born into a people under the Law of Moses. This is not so, Paul argues, and refers to the establishment of the covenant in Genesis 15 and repeats the key statement "Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness".

Faith, not nationality from birth, is the criteria for covenant membership. It would seem awfully odd that Paul would argue this point and yet also believe that people are indeed “born unto salvation†after all by believing the existence of an "elect".

Even though the elect unto salvation are not (under the conventional Calvinist position), of course, national Israel - they still would constitute a set of people who are essentially privileged by birth unto salvation, just as the Jews believed that they were automatically members of the covenant by virtue of being born an ethnic Jew. It seems to me that this is the kind of thinking that Paul clearly repudiates in Romans.

Very well said.

 

[savedbygrace57]

rom 5:10

The answer to my question in post 884 is C, the Death of God's Son. So the Death of God's Son reconciles to God all those He died for, while they were yet enemies by nature, and that being so, those enemies shall be saved by His Life..

That means by His Life they shall repent and believe and walk in newness of life..


Thats a guarantee for everyone Christ died for, hence those never saved, Christ did not die for..

 

[savedbygrace57]

Four Petitions Christ Prays to the Father for those He died for !

Another reason its fiction that Christ died for everyone without exception, is because of specific petitions to the Father for those He died for that most certainly have had a favorable answer or reply from His Father..

#1 He prays that there will be those who shall believe in Him, that those whom He offered Himself for shall believe in Him through the word of His Apostles Jn 17:

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Notice, they shall believe on Him , not maybe or hope so, but that they shall believe..its future tense, but its most surely will happen as an answer to His Prayer..

# 2 He prays for those who believe that their Faith fail not Lk 22:

32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

His Brethren would have been given the same like precious Faith as He, which is confirmed in 2 pet 1:

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Hence, they obtained it, it was not of themselves...and would not Christ have the same desire and concern for their Faith not failing as He did for Peter in this instance ? Why, the very reason for Christ intercession for peter was for the benefit of others in the same household of Faith..

#3 He prays that all He died for shall have a comforter given them forever Jn 14:

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

The world in genral cannot receive this gift Jn 14:17

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The world which he prayed not for is in view here Jn 17:9

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

#4 He Prays that they [all for whom He died] be with Him where He is and behold His Glory Jn 17:24

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

The they means all for whom The Father hath given the Son, and again to dispel the notion that its limited to the apostles, vs 20 neither pray I for these alone !

1 thess 4:
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If one for whom Christ died, perishes in their sins, Christ petitions were failed of answer from the Father..
​

 

[Nathan]

Ok. Forgive my ignorance, or my lack of wanting to search at the moment.

But wouldn't this thread be better labeled;

The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for men!​

Maybe I am wrong, but something just struck me about this just now. If someone could do the digging to show Biblical evidence that Jesus died for men, I would love to study it a little better.

Better yet, you could probably label it;

The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for men without exception!​

There are most CERTAINLY exceptions for any man.

 

[Elijah674]

Ok. Forgive my ignorance, or my lack of wanting to search at the moment.

But wouldn't this thread be better labeled;

The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for men!​

Maybe I am wrong, but something just struck me about this just now. If someone could do the digging to show Biblical evidence that Jesus died for men, I would love to study it a little better.

Better yet, you could probably label it;

The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for men without exception!​

There are most CERTAINLY exceptions for any man.

Good post! but, you gave no verse for where we are to THINK, or use our GOD GIVEN BRAIN! (yet)

SO?? Most will just stay in Heb. 5 as they 'so choose' even before the Heb. 6:3 verse of finding God's permission to go forward? And it seem's that that verse is an exception, huh? (or is CONDITION meaning the same thing!;))

--Elijah

 

[Nathan]

Good post! but, you gave no verse for where we are to THINK, or use our GOD GIVEN BRAIN! (yet)

SO?? Most will just stay in Heb. 5 as they 'so choose' even before the Heb. 6:3 verse of finding God's permission to go forward? And it seem's that that verse is an exception, huh? (or is CONDITION meaning the same thing!;))

--Elijah

My apologies;

1Jo 5:1-5 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Jhn 8:24 "I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."

I know there is more to this. But I am addressing the beginning of the myth. This could be taken much further, and should, but unless one 'believes' it does them no good to go any further. The fact is that there is specific 'proof' also that one has 'met' the exception. That is obedience. But until the exception is met, a false 'obedience' will only serve to drive them further from the truth.

 

[savedbygrace57]

All those Christ died for was for the purpose of them obtaining salvation, that whether they sleep or awake they shall be with Him..

1 thess 5:


9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

If this end of Christ death is not obtained for all Christ died for, His death was a miserable failure to them, it could not save them..

This is what those are saying who believe and preach that Christ death was for some who have been appointed to wrath or who is going to hear these words :

Matt 7:


23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
or

Matt 25:


41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[stranger]

All those Christ died for was for the purpose of them obtaining salvation, that whether they sleep or awake they shall be with Him..

1 thess 5:


9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

If this end of Christ death is not obtained for all Christ died for, His death was a miserable failure to them, it could not save them..

This is what those are saying who believe and preach that Christ death was for some who have been appointed to wrath or who is going to hear these words :

Matt 7:


23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
or

Matt 25:


41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Hi savedbygrace57,

It has been a while! The question I have often wondered about is what is the relation of Christ dying and the lost? Obviously the intent is not to save since we are talking about the lost (not the lost who are later redeemed but the lost who are never redeemed).

The dialogue assumes the death of Christ has only one intent - that is to save, and so it is for those saved or in reformed terms 'the elect.'

So the question is: Does the death of Christ have a different meaning for the lost, than it has for those saved?
What do you think?

 

[Nathan]

Everyone is lost until they come too Christ. His death is not intended for a "ticket in hand" event, but to cancel the debt against us AND set us free from the slavery of sin so that we can live holy and righteous lives before God in this present age.

Therefore you will not see, or at least it has yet been proven, that Jesus died for man without exception. That includes even the "elect".

Thanks for the 'prooftext' sbg57. I figured it was in there somewhere, just had to be dug up.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Death of Christ gathers together into one ! -



Its a fact that Christ did not die for everyone without exception, because His death gathers together into one, because its efficacious !

Jn 11:


49And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Lets look at the word gather ! Its the greek word synagō and means:


to gather together, to gather

a) to draw together, collect

1) of fishes

2) of a net in which they are caught

2) to bring together, assemble, collect

a) to join together, join in one (those previously separated)

This gathering is a key element in the efficaciousness of the death of Christ for the people of God, for it gathers in the people of God, the children of God, that is, all the children of God who went astray and alienated in Adam, the Son of God lk 3:

38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Note, Adam was a Child of God by creation, and the messiah was promised to be of his seed gen 3 15 and this is confirmed with this lukean account of His genealogy by the flesh..

Now, Christ death does not make this gathering or reconciling only possible to God, as some falsely teach, but it actually brings or gathers us [ Gods children] to God..

Lets look at 1 pet 3:

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring [gather] us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Here Peter specifies the purpose of Christ death [suffered for sins] in order that He might bring us to God, the condition has been met by Christ death to effect the purpose..

This is a key Truth in the value and accomplishment of the death of Christ, that the substitutionary atonement of Christ, He the righteous or Just being put to death in place of the unjust [by nature] was in order to bring them to God.

Jesus expressed the same purpose for His death when He spoke these words Jn 10:

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The word bring here has the same root word as gather in jn 11 52 ago which means to lead or to move, impel: of forces and influences on the mind

He states this after declaring in vs 11&15 that He lays down His Life for his sheep..

That other Sheep I have [ other than jewish sheep] and them too I must bring or gather, same connotation as Jn 11:

52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Yes, His Death has gathering power...